Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel

Afgahan   useing your logic i can basically label all palestinians s terrorists too.

Originally posted by �ok ge� Afghan, can you post the source. Especially it is a copied text. Such an interesting article should be sited. Thank you.

mr kabbanii   a professional who cites his work!

I disagree, DukeC. Zionists are not nor have ever been satisfied with the land they have. I'm certain ordinary Jews arriving in Palestine, as even they referred to it in those days, were more than content just to have a safe place to lay their heads - but Zionist leaders obviously were not.

Even now, illegal settlements that break the laws of the Geneva conventions are being expanded in Israel. The roads connecting them, roads on which only Jews are allowed to drive, are still being used as weapons of mass destruction. Pick up a driver's map of the West Bank and note how all of the Jews-only highways wind like a tangled thread between each settlements. This isn't the shortest route, nor is it accidental. The roads are used to destroy virtually everything they possibly can. This not only includes orchards, small villages, and so on - the roads are also used to break larger Palestinian towns in several pieces, regardless of how many homes need to be destroyed to push a road straight through the city.

According to my friend Matityahu, most Israelies are actually fairly ignorent of the situation in the occupied territories. They have a vague idea of what life is like, but few really understand just how bad it is. And the vast majority of Palestinians never see any Israelies other than soldiers and settlers, both of whom - especially the latter - certainly don't offer a good impression. "No dogs, no Christians, no Arabs" is the sign many settlements have on their gates. The people who move to these settlements are mainly religious fanatics or the poorest of the poor of Israeli immigrants.

All of this has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism. They are no more Jewish than Osama bin Laden is Muslim. They should be stopped. They should be obliterated, actually. To me they are no better than neo-Nazis.

As for Lebanon, their first war and occupation killed thousands and brought about the founding of Hezbollah as a resistence movement. Hezbollah adopted terrorist actions, Israel was forced to leave most of the occupied regions of southern Lebanon (NOT all) - and landmined what it gave up as it left. Now Israel is back again, and God only knows what the response will be. One thing is for certain, though - Lebanese Christians now support Hezbollah. Israel, as it always does, has done nothing but make the situation worse for those who want peace.

If you look closely, everything the Israeli government does has the effect of empowering militant Islamists. Everything militant Islamists do has the effect of empowering the Israeli government. Evil feeds off evil.

Zionists are just a small part Israel, there is also a very strong peace movement. It's unfair to leave out all their efforts and the violent death of their leader in 1993. Israel is not a monolith, it is one of the most fractous nations in the world politically. The right-wing has been able to advance it's adgenda by scaring Israelis with the spectre of Palestinian violence and threats by countries like Iran. For their part other groups and nations have used Israel as a rally point for building support. A peaceful solution for everybody will never be possible if all these factors aren't taken into account.

Originally posted by Mila ^ We agree. You're not willing to condemn Israel fully because of these groups, I'm not willing to let them off the hook fully because of them.

Originally posted by DukeC Originally posted by Mila The more land Israel attempts to conquer, cleanse of its inhabitants, and colonize - the worse its situation will be. The situation since 1967 has been immeasurably worse than the situation between 1948-1967. If Israel attempts to claim more territory in Arabia, it will simply create an even larger refugee population, in ever larger and more desperate refugee camps, with an even larger desire to destroy the country and reclaim everything that was taken from them.   This just isn't historically accurate Mila. Israel was originally created to provide a safe homeland for Jews worldwide, not create an empire. The growth of Israel is directly related to the attempts by it's Arab neighbor to destroy it. You can't use the Balkan experience to describe the middle-east. In most of the early wars Israel was the underdog, less well armed and smaller forces than it's opponents. It was the determination of the Israelis to resist that was the driving force that created the country not the desire to dominate that you seem to believe. After the near defeat in 1973 the Israeli outlook changed, no longer was defence seen to be enough. The IDF took a much more agressive stance towards threats and in the early 1980s invaded Lebanon to evict the PLO guerillas operating there. It wasn't to colonize it was to sanitize.

What I don't understand, is how anyone can possibly defend Israel.
Think of the worst things you can do and Israel has done it.

Originally posted by DukeC If you start from the viewpoint that Israel doesn't have the right to exist any action it takes is going to be wrong. Much of what has been done  by Israel has been in the name of defence, something that can't be said for some of it's opponents. Would you be at all upset if one of the many attempts to wipe Israel off the map had succeeded?

Are you upset that the attempt to wipe Palestine off the map was, largely, successful?

Originally posted by Mila Originally posted by DukeC If you start from the viewpoint that Israel doesn't have the right to exist any action it takes is going to be wrong. Much of what has been done  by Israel has been in the name of defence, something that can't be said for some of it's opponents. Would you be at all upset if one of the many attempts to wipe Israel off the map had succeeded? Are you upset that the attempt to wipe Palestine off the map was, largely, successful?