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Africa: the White man's burden????

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  Quote Malik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Africa: the White man's burden????
    Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 00:00
Id advise everybody to ignore pinguins opinions due to the fact that its been proven that hes racist.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 01:34
So throw around the word racist, but that sort of talk achieves nothing so far as learning. The word should be used with caution when referring to those who care and do wish to learn more, this is a history forum where we are open to the hard questions. Would anybody deny modern history that millions of Africans have risked death and work at menial jobs for the rest of their lives to escape Africa and get into Europe?

Africa, although it could be a rich commonwealth of nations if all African leaders worked together, have consistently failed to realize their own potential. If you want to change the problems of anywhere on earth, no matter who the people are, first of all you must identify what the problems are and then find the best ways to fix them. If you can suggest any other way then please do so, sooner than be critical.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 03:31

I'm aware of that Elenos - I wasn't being prejudice - I'm just saying that such a terrible history has created a degree of political correctness in the historical study of those countries.

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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 04:30
I know you weren't being prejudiced Earl Aster, I was saying the other reply to Pinguin was unfair. The writer does not show any knowledge of the problems and not a shred of evidence. I have heard hundreds of stories of missionaries going to a third world country, converting one family, and then leaving hoping the converted family will spread the word and send money to the family every week to keep up the good work. 

The mission gets back glowing reports for years of the rate of conversion and all, then someone from the charity goes over on a surprise visit. What they find is the one family gets the money, lives in the biggest house in town, shares nothing, and haven't converted anybody accept for a few sponging relatives who they pay to come in and back them up.

I have been involved in welfare work and can honestly say I have seen with my own eyes this sort of thing happening in white countries let alone black. The great problem is that most of Africa is poor and cannot even afford to give handouts like in the first world countries.



Edited by elenos - 19-Jul-2007 at 04:36
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  Quote Malik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 04:43
Originally posted by elenos

I know you weren't being prejudiced Earl Aster, I was saying the other reply to Pinguin was unfair. The writer does not show any knowledge of the problems and not a shred of evidence. I have heard hundreds of stories of missionaries going to a third world country, converting one family, and then leaving hoping the converted family will spread the word and send money to the family every week to keep up the good work. 

The mission gets back glowing reports for years of the rate of conversion and all, then someone from the charity goes over on a surprise visit. What they find is the one family gets the money, lives in the biggest house in town, shares nothing, and haven't converted anybody accept for a few sponging relatives who they pay to come in and back them up.

I have been involved in welfare work and can honestly say I have seen with my own eyes this sort of thing happening in white countries let alone black. The great problem is that most of Africa is poor and cannot even afford to give handouts like in the first world countries.



I have evidence of his racism actually from another forum.I already notified the mods,and im sure they circulated it alittle.However,im not about to make a big deal about it and flood the thread up with evidence out of respect for the mods.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 07:54
hanks for explaining your point further, Malik. Now I understand what you are saying. Pinquin has some extreme views and may at times express beliefs others may not agree with and so gives offense. I have not been here long yet the impression I get of nice guy who tries despite what else he may believe that comes from his peer group. Over time we all change. Nothing worse than loving history and not being able to discuss it.

Anyway to get back on topic, if you are keen on preventing racism, what is the answer for Africa and how should people go about discussing it? As a history forum we discuss the past and look at previous evidence. As I pointed out, one problem among many is the welfare cycle that seems impossible to break and yet has built up on good intentions that have gone wrong.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 10:52
Originally posted by Malik

Id advise everybody to ignore pinguins opinions due to the fact that its been proven that hes racist.
 
You have to go to the topic and prove something on there. You can't prove anything just saying I am a racist. As far as I know 99% of the wonderful claims about SS Africa are artificial make-ups by people motivated by political reasons.
 
Africa has its merits, indeed, but there is the necessity of some that they be more glorious than they really were.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 10:54
How come very few people have the ability to discuss the history of Negroid peoples without becoming so tense about political correctness you'd think they had a cactus up their asses? Whenever this topic comes up people seem more interested in pointing fingers and arguing over who's more racist, than treating the subject at hand. For those few of us who rather prefer doing the latter it's extremely tiresome to have to scroll through several posts of "omg is it racist to say this?" followed by "not at all, relax" and then "that is SO racist!".
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  Quote Malik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 14:41
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Malik

Id advise everybody to ignore pinguins opinions due to the fact that its been proven that hes racist.
 
You have to go to the topic and prove something on there. You can't prove anything just saying I am a racist. As far as I know 99% of the wonderful claims about SS Africa are artificial make-ups by people motivated by political reasons.
 
Africa has its merits, indeed, but there is the necessity of some that they be more glorious than they really were.


Pinguin, I dont have to prove anything,due to the fact that its already been proven that your a racist bigot.Ask the the admin of AE.The fact that you lie about your racist bigotry is hysterical as well.All im doing is warning these other users about the intent in some of your posts.I already proved you racism towards blacks and "gringos" so whats there to prove?
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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 15:07
I would like everyone on this thread to feel comfortable in discussing the original topic. I would also like to share that any flaming bewteen members is not welcome. Yes, I and the moderating staff have been informed by Malik of Pinguin's past. This information was offered to us. Since we received it we have continued to make it our job to enforce only our Codes of Conduct. Nothing less and nothing more.
 
There will be no finger pointing. Only actions on AE are what interest us.
 
Continue with the topic. Oh, and by the way, as Regimund said you don't have to be politically correct. Just try to be correct with tact.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 15:20
I haven't done any racist comment in this thread. I find the accusation I have received an injustice, particularly from posting comming from other contexts and reasons.
 
I believe in AE we are for discussing facts. Nothing else.
 
I leave this thread though, so I don't disturb anybody.
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2007 at 22:29
We need some discussion around here, despite the lack of it by some. One contention is the sudden explosion of population in Africa over the last couple of hundred years has destablised the whole continent In the poorest countries Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia and Sudan, the population has risen from 60 million in the 1960s to 190 million in 2000.
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 03:39
Simple - third world countries demographics - they need to have loads of children because the infanty mortallity rate is so high, and also so that they can have help with work and so that they are insured that they will be looked after when they are old. Since in the 1960s Africa was generally in a better state, and the mortallity rate was less, less children would be born because economic conditions were better and thus less children were needed to help work. It's simple demographics - most third world countries have this general pattern.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 04:24
Economic mismanagement elsewhere is nowhere near the scale in Africa. Corruption is endemic and the money that comes in goes down the sink. Sure, you can point to one country or another and say they are doing well, but just wait until next year if they are! 
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 05:05
That reminds me of an interesting story - my father works for the British council and in the 1980s he was posted in Sudan. He and the Consulate worked on a plan to donate school books for Sudanese children. When he and my mother unpacked their furniture, guess what they found the Sudanese packers had placed it in? Shredded up school books.
 
Pouring money into Africa won't help - infrastructure and framework has to be placed in before that money goes in. Without that crucial infrastructure, the money, as you said, goes down the drain. Many people give money to charity organisations without realising this simple fact. If you want to help Africa, vote for parties that will make serious political changes - more and more money won't do a thing with the political situation like it is overall.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 05:50
Yes, infrastructure is the right word. But one recent problem, if I dare say it there has been huge increase of Arabic and Chinese relocation to Africa. They build up cities from what was jungles twenty years ago, but the original natives are outside dwellers. Infrastructure is coming in but the natives are still on the fringes on the wealth being generated.   
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 05:53
Well, at least it's a start... One good thing is that it could help reduce the problem of fundamentalism occuring in the northern Muslim areas. Also, another great piece of news is that a huge lake has been discovered undernearth Darfur which could end the conflict by making more land ariable.
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 06:46
That is good news. However is land what the conflict is all about or power?
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 07:30
One of the big problems for Africa, ironically enough, has been the introduction of more intensive agriculture ushered in under the Green Revolution of the 1960s.

The new agriculture was more mechanized and required more inputs in the form of credit - causing many farmers to be displaced from their land and ushering in agribusiness, which employed only a small fraction of the more labour-intensive agriculture.

The overall result was an increase in food supply and lower food prices, but, less access to employment and the disruption of the subsistence economy. Since little industry was available to provide new forms of employment, the subsistence economy was not really replaced with anything for millions of former small farmers - they ended up living in squalid conditions in the cities.

Greater food supply also increased populations, which led to some localized ecological problems, including droughts which resulted in famine.

Edited by edgewaters - 23-Jul-2007 at 07:32
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jul-2007 at 09:20
You would think they would have thought of that beforehand. The people needed the subsistence farming to fall back on at least. So many do-gooders interfere that the situation still is a mass confusion. To allow the Africans work their way through their own problems with a minimum of assistance  is still not a popular idea, still too much emotion attached.
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