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Ancient Macedonian language

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Neoptolemos View Drop Down
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  Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Macedonian language
    Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 14:54
Originally posted by bg_turk

Let me summarize the evidence in support of the thesis that Macedonian was a distinct language (as Anton had suggested):

1. Philotas' trial where the Macedonian language is specifically mentioned (source: Cleitarchus)
On that trial Alexander stated: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case, please state whether you will use your native language before them". When Philotas replies he'd rather use Greek to enable the present Greeks to understand as well, the king retorts: "Do you see how offensive Philotas finds even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember that he is conemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language. "

On a previous post of yours it was mentioned that Philotas answered: "[Above and] beyond the Macedonians ... there are many present whom, I feel, will more easily grasp the things I say if I use the same language you did..."
So Greeks would grasp more easily Attik Greek (I assume) than Macedonian. Guess what? This suggests that Macedonian was a Greek dalect. If not, how would it be possible for Greeks to grasp Macedonian, even with difficulty?
Moreover, Alexander himself spoke Greek (Attik) in the court. So I don't understand how on earth you reached this conclusion: "
If Alexander himself has uttered that he does not understand Greek and asked that Macedonian be spoken on that trial, then what better evidence that Macedonian was a distinct language"

Edited by Neoptolemos - 06-Jul-2006 at 14:55
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:01
Originally posted by Neoptolemos


Moreover, Alexander himself spoke Greek (Attik) in the court. So I don't understand how on earth you reached this conclusion: "
If Alexander himself has uttered that he does not understand Greek and asked that Macedonian be spoken on that trial, then what better evidence that Macedonian was a distinct language"


Good question. You are right Alexander spoke Greek, it was for the benefit of the other Macedonians present that he asked Macedonian be spoken.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:02
I want to add soemthing for the Philotas trial.
One of the questions that arises out of Curtius' inflated account of the Philotas affair is

Where did Curtius find all this information, with all its details and melodrama?
 
Were records of the trial's proceedings available, which could have been used by Curtius' source(s) or Curtius himself?

and I am explain

In Arrian (3.26.1-4), the Philotas-Parmenion affair is only 36 lines + 2 words long
Plutarch yields 86 LCL lines + 3 words to the Philotas-Parmenion affair
Curtius' account of the Philotas affair, on the other hand, amounts to 619 LCL lines + 81 words, or about 4537.8 words (6.7-1 1.40).

All of them have the sames ancient sources

All those in exaplainations you can read in

 
Kapetanopoulos make step by step analysis, any word and sentence(latin,Greek,Englih) and proove simply what were the Curtious mistakes regarding with the others ancient writers.

 


Edited by akritas - 06-Jul-2006 at 15:03
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:04
Originally posted by Neoptolemos


So Greeks would grasp more easily Attik Greek (I assume) than Macedonian. Guess what? This suggests that Macedonian was a Greek dalect. If not, how would it be possible for Greeks to grasp Macedonian, even with difficulty?

I am not sure I understand your point here. My point was that Macedonian and Greek are mutually incomprehensible.
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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:06
Right Neoptolemos! That's what I wanted to say but I tried to find the original text to post exactly the answer of Philotas. But you found it first.
 
But as Akritas understood, they are not open to other opinions. We post evidence and they don't accept them while they have no evidence but just misunderstandings about what ancient Greeks said because they have never study greek history or greek linguistics.
 
So, that's why I don't like when these threads start. It's pointless to continue..
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:09
Originally posted by dorian

Right Neoptolemos! That's what I wanted to say but I tried to find the original text to post exactly the answer of Philotas.


And what is exactly that you tried to say, dorian?


The exact exchange that took place was:

Alexander:
The Macedonians are going to judge your case, please state whether you will use your native language before them.

Philotas:
Besides the Macedonians there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you.

Alexander:
Do you see how offensive Philotas finds even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember that he is conemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language.

Alexander had just spoken in Greek and asked Philotas what language he would have wanted to use. Philotas preferred to use Greeek in order to allow more people to understand, since clearly not everybody understood Macedonian to the contempt of Alexander.
 


Edited by bg_turk - 06-Jul-2006 at 15:18
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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:13
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Neoptolemos


So Greeks would grasp more easily Attik Greek (I assume) than Macedonian. Guess what? This suggests that Macedonian was a Greek dalect. If not, how would it be possible for Greeks to grasp Macedonian, even with difficulty?

I am not sure I understand your point here. My point was that Macedonian and Greek are mutually incomprehensible.
 
For one more time....
 
We gave you example that we don't understand other greek dialects even today.
 
And the point here is the word "easily". It means that it would be easier for the crowd, which consisted not only of Macedonians but other Greeks as well,  to understand the attic greek than the macedonian which indicates that it was more difficult (not impossible) for them to comprehend the macedonian.


Edited by dorian - 06-Jul-2006 at 18:20
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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  Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:18
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Neoptolemos


So Greeks would grasp more easily Attik Greek (I assume) than Macedonian. Guess what? This suggests that Macedonian was a Greek dalect. If not, how would it be possible for Greeks to grasp Macedonian, even with difficulty?

I am not sure I understand your point here. My point was that Macedonian and Greek are mutually incomprehensible.

My point is that, according to what YOU posted, Philotas says that the Greeks who were present in the court would grasp more easily what he says if he speaks Attik. If he used Macedonian they will still grasp what he said, but with difficulty.

Originally posted by dorian

Right Neoptolemos! That's what I wanted to say but I tried to find the original text to post exactly the answer of Philotas. But you found it first.

Dorian, I didn't find the original text, but I used what BG posted earlier.
I would also like to see the original text, so if somebody has a link to it, I would appreciate it.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:38

"Mihi quidem obicitur quod societatem patrii sennonis aspenter, quod Macedonum mores fastidiam.Sic ego imperio quod dedignor, immineo! lam pridem nativus ille s e m commercio aliamg gentium exolevit; tam victoribus, quam victis peregrina lingua discenda est"

Alexander's question to Philotas whether the latter was to address the Makedones in the patrius senno (6.9.34) and Philotas' reply (below) to Alexander's accusation that he (Philotas) hated the putrius s e m and did not learn it (ibid. 9.36) are in themselves contradictory. When Alexander asked Philotas about the patrius s e m , Philotas responded that he was going to speak in the same language as Alexander, presumably the koine (above), because, besides the Makedones, there were also many others present and because Alexander's language was understood a pluribus (ibid. 9.35). This response by Philotas would imply that there was a putrius senno and that Philotas knew it, but he preferred to speak in the language Alexander had used for greater comprehension, unless this was a ploy on the part of Philotas to cover up his not knowing the putnus senno, as accused by Alexander and later by Bolon (below). The contradiction in the pazrius senno motif shows up later, too, when Philotas in defending  himself (6.10.23) says that the parrills sernlo had become obsolete because of the intercourse with other nations (lam pndem nativus ille sermo commercio aliarum gerzrium exolevit) , with the comment tam victoribus, quam victis peregrina lingua disceitda esr.
 

How could Philotas state in the contio that the patrirrs sermo was no longer spoken, if it was still in vogue as suggested by Alexander's question? And how could Alexander pose such a question if the patrius s e m was no longer spoken as Philotas declared? What is the balance here?

Or is this patrius sermo motif a dramatic introduction by Curtius' source(s) or even Curtius himself?
 
Plutarch, for example, has preserved evidence of this "patrius sermo motif" in such expressions as makedonisti
 
Neoptelemos the original text and the explainations from Kapetanopoulos.


Edited by akritas - 06-Jul-2006 at 15:45
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  Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:47
Thank you akrita. I appreciate your work in this thread.
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:52
Originally posted by bg_turk



My point remains that for two spoken languages to be considered dialects there must be some mutual comprehensibility. Charge for instance argues that modern Makedonski is a dialect of Bulgarian and he has a point because we can understand say more than 80% of what is spoken. I understand most, if not all, dialects of Turkish or Bulgairan, even the most remote ones I can confidently say I understand at least 50% of.

According to the sources I gave, this was not the case between Macedonian and Greek - they were mutually incomprehensible. How closely related they were, and whether that relationship is enough to justify to classify them as members of one single linguistic group is for linguists to decide when sufficient archealogical scripts are found, but for the moment the best is to trust the words of Alexander and the other Macedonians, and even the Greeks. If they could not understand each other when they spoke their native languages, then I'd say their native languages were different and not simply dialects of each other. 
 
Firstly, the assumption that macedonian and greek were mutually incomprehensible is not true. What is true is that it was not easily understood by other Greeks.

Even your argumentation which i made bold, is against your assertion. Alexander I, obviously spoke a language comprehensible to the rest of greeks while he was in the olympics, otherwise they simply couldnt understand a thing from what he said. Not only that but his exact words according to Herodotus were:

"Men of Athens... Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Greece I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Greek by descent, and I could not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery.... If you
prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider
the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Greek cause, to acquaint you with
what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the
barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon."


If Alexander I as Macedonian, spoke a language incomprehensible to Greeks then obviously the Persian General Mardonius wouldnt appoint him (i remind you that during Persian wars, Macedonia was a vassal to Persians) as his words-transporter to greeks.

Furthermore, during the 5th century, we have classical Greek tragedists such as Euripides writing, producing and presenting some of the great
greek tradegies in Pella. For example Iphigenia in Tauris was written in Pella. Its apparent, a tragedy played in attic greek wouldnt be presented to the wide Macedonian audience if that tragedy was incomprehensible to the macedonian audience.

The examples are many but to make it short i would like to remind you that the vast majority of personal names in ancient Macedonia as well as the toponyms are in Greek something very peculiar for non-Greek speakers as to the fact that all army terms from unit organization, to weapons, to ranks, to unit locations etc are all in Greek and all these words have a full meaning in greek language, they are not simply regularizations as it happened with foreign languages.
I think that these simple arguments are enough to demolish any position to the contrary.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:57
Originally posted by Neoptolemos

Thank you akrita. I appreciate your work in this thread.

Do you say that because you genuinely believe in his arguments, or because he is a Greek?
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:58
Originally posted by Neoptolemos

Thank you akrita. I appreciate your work in this thread.
Thank you NeoptolemosSmile And i have a couple thinks to post.
 
One is the Macedonian poetry 
So we listen from the people that are against in the Greek language  that maybe only the royal Macedonian family and possibly the Macedonian nobility spoke greek.
Then..
 
If so, how come Greek was the language that ordinary Macedonians like Posidippus, Adaeus, Heggesepus or Phaedimus also wrote poetry in?
 
Why did they wrote to a so called from the propagandists, "foreign" language and didnt use theirs?
 
Why didn't all the rest of neighbouring countries (Illyrians, Paeonians, etc) who used also Greek, at least their elite, didnt wrote Greek poetry?

http://www.chs.harvard.edu/publicati..._posidippus.pg

http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...anth_bio3a.htm
 
Macedonien Poets(not Royals) that written in Greek language


Edited by akritas - 06-Jul-2006 at 16:02
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:06
akritas,

Alexander was raised and educated by Greeks and he spoke Greek. That Alexander could interact with Greeks in Greeks does not prove nor does it deny the relationship between Greek and Macedonian.

Regarding the last paragraph that millitary terms were commonly used in Macedonian, it again is not a proof that Macedonian was a dialect of Greek. Virtually all terms related to computers in Bulgarian are the same in English as well, does this prove that BG and EN are the same language? Not.

By the way were the millitary terms in Thracian different?

To conclude as I see nothing good coming out of this topic any more ... I laid down my arguments, and I am looking forward to more archaelogical discoveries and scholarly works that once and for all clear up this controversy.
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  Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:08
Originally posted by bg_turk

Do you say that because you genuinely believe in his arguments, or because he is a Greek?

Reply for BG: because he is Greek.
Reply for everybody else: akritas has written very informative posts, it is obvious that he has put effert in that and I appeciate him for that.
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:14
Originally posted by akritas

Thank you NeoptolemosSmile And i have a couple thinks to post.
 
One is the Macedonian poetry 
So we listen from the people that are against in the Greek language  that maybe only the royal Macedonian family and possibly the Macedonian nobility spoke greek.
Then..
 
If so, how come Greek was the language that ordinary Macedonians like Posidippus, Adaeus, Heggesepus or Phaedimus also wrote poetry in?
 
Why did they wrote to a so called from the propagandists, "foreign" language and didnt use theirs?
 
Why didn't all the rest of neighbouring countries (Illyrians, Paeonians, etc) who used also Greek, at least their elite, didnt wrote Greek poetry?

http://www.chs.harvard.edu/publicati..._posidippus.pg

http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...anth_bio3a.htm
 
Macedonien Poets(not Royals) that written in Greek language


Well said Akritas!
I would like to remind you all about the ancient Macedonian theater! We know that only the Greeks had theaters in the classical period. The macedonians had four famous theaters that they attended: Dion,  Vergina, Philippi, and Thassos. The Dion theater was he first to host the first performance of Euripedes work "Bakchae". Bakchae is all written in Greek so the simple citizens attending it in Macedonia had to understand it.

Euripedes wrote Bakchea while being in Pella. He was also burried there according to Pausanias (Attica II, chapter 2):

"Euripides lies buried in Macedonia"

The most popular theater works in Macedonia was Athenian. Peaces of local works have been found as well but are incomplete. The important on this case is that the texts are in greek.


Edited by Flipper - 06-Jul-2006 at 16:15


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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:15
Originally posted by bg_turk

.

Regarding the last paragraph that millitary terms were commonly used in Macedonian, it again is not a proof that Macedonian was a dialect of Greek. Virtually all terms related to computers in Bulgarian are the same in English as well, does this prove that BG and EN are the same language? Not. 
What are the origin of the below sentence  ? Greek or English?
 
Parallel to this, we have to synchronize and harmonize more and more our economic and numismatic policies panethnically.
These scopes are more practical now, when the prognostics of the political and economic barometer are halcyonic.
 
 
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:17
Originally posted by bg_turk

]
Alexander was raised and educated by Greeks and he spoke Greek. That Alexander could interact with Greeks in Greeks does not prove nor does it deny the relationship between Greek and Macedonian. 
How you know that Alexander was raised and educated by Greeks and he spoke Greek ?
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:21
Originally posted by bg_turk

akritas,

Alexander was raised and educated by Greeks and he spoke Greek.



I guess you mean Aristoteles when you say "by Greeks" right?




Edited by Flipper - 06-Jul-2006 at 16:22


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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:24
Originally posted by akritas

Originally posted by bg_turk

.

Regarding the last paragraph that millitary terms were commonly used in Macedonian, it again is not a proof that Macedonian was a dialect of Greek. Virtually all terms related to computers in Bulgarian are the same in English as well, does this prove that BG and EN are the same language? Not. 
What are the origin of the below sentence  ? Greek or English?
 
Parallel to this, we have to synchronize and harmonize more and more our economic and numismatic policies panethnically.
These scopes are more practical now, when the prognostics of the political and economic barometer are halcyonic.
 
 
 
Well, I don't know. Words seems to be of greek origin but the meaning of these sentences is not obvious LOL
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