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Ancient Macedonian language |
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Anton 
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Joined: 23-Jun-2006 Location: Bulgaria Online Status: Offline Posts: 2888 |
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 Topic: Ancient Macedonian languagePosted: 06-Jul-2006 at 10:00 |
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Yannis, if we accept your thesis, then Macedonian language is separate language. Linguistical analysis (based on the inscriptions found after 4th cent. BC) shows that it was rather close to greek language but some amount of known words (I have tried to ask akritas for the details of this some) were not the same. Some sources point the difference between them -- like those about Philota, and the fact that Macedonians had been required to learn greek language (that I read somewhere and maybe not true
 ) and some others. On the other hand, many sources points their cultural proximity to Hellen world. We know that some greeks were against paricipation of macedonians in Olympic games claiming that they are not Hellens, but they participated anyway. The later suggests that they were different from other greeks but still very close culturally (and, maybe ethnically as well). Macedons had a lot of greek names or names that have meaning in greek. But these names (at least some of them) also have meaning in slav languages.
Did I miss something? These, shortly, are controversial facts. And I, personally, do not find convincing any of the previous attempts from, let's say, both schools, to somehow explain them. The only interesting point had been shown by dorian that hellenization cannot explain totally proximity between languages because in this case it shouldn't be close to dorian but to Attik dialect instead.
And again, I couldn't miss the oportunity to put some off-topical genetical stuff -- if you look at people living in modern Macedonia (I mean all parts of it) and Greece you will not find signifficant difference between them (genetically). And modern folk culture is similar also. But all this is probably far from the topic.
Taken together all that, I cannot understand the reason for such an expressive figthing between co-forumers.
Akritas, because panslavism is not a methodology of history but feature of a historian itself. Thus, if you suspect some historian in panslavism you by that way do not disprove his findings.
Edited by Anton - 06-Jul-2006 at 10:04 |
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bg_turk
Sultan 
Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 10:07 |
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My point remains that for two spoken languages to be considered dialects there must be some mutual comprehensibility. Charge for instance argues that modern Makedonski is a dialect of Bulgarian and he has a point because we can understand say more than 80% of what is spoken. I understand most, if not all, dialects of Turkish or Bulgairan, even the most remote ones I can confidently say I understand at least 50% of. According to the sources I gave, this was not the case between Macedonian and Greek - they were mutually incomprehensible. How closely related they were, and whether that relationship is enough to justify to classify them as members of one single linguistic group is for linguists to decide when sufficient archealogical scripts are found, but for the moment the best is to trust the words of Alexander and the other Macedonians, and even the Greeks. If they could not understand each other when they spoke their native languages, then I'd say their native languages were different and not simply dialects of each other. As to your point that Macedonians never used translators with Greeks, Alexander never needed a translator because he was raised in Greek culture, he participated in the Olympic cames despite objections of his Barbarianism, and as a nobility it is only natural that he spoke Greek. But this is no evidence that ordinary Macedonians did not need translators when interacting with Greeks, and I have yet to see evidence of Greek being spoken to the Macedonian soldiers. All evidence, including that which akritas posted, show that whenever Macedonian sodliers were spoken to in Greek, they did not understand and asked to be spoken to in their native language. Greek was incomprehensible to them. For me this is enough evidence to prove that Greek and Macedonian were different languages. Edited by bg_turk - 06-Jul-2006 at 10:12 |
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Yiannis
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Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Location: Neutral Zone Online Status: Offline Posts: 2329 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 10:53 |
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Anton, what I posted was not a "thesis" but an ironic remark instead... If you want to use it to prove something that you already have in your mind, be my guest.
Is there any evidence for the opposite?
Since all the signs that we have are in the Greek language and their names were also Greek, we must assume that ordinary Macedonians not only all knew foreign languages, but also that they named their children with foreign names...
PS
Irrelevant posts deleted, if you care to continue, do so in PM.
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dorian
Consul 
Joined: 20-May-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 370 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:00 |
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The words in ancient macedonian which are not greek are few... In modern greek there are foreign words too. Does it mean that we spoke a different language and these words are remnants of our original language?
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006 Location: Bulgaria Online Status: Offline Posts: 2888 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:05 |
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Yannis as you probably might realize I do not try to prove something but to collect all available data about the question And I still have nothing to prove in my mind. I was trying to summarize everything here without puting any accent. Would you like to help me with that?
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dorian
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Joined: 20-May-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 370 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:08 |
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Furthermore, although we have posted it millions of times, even now if we go to Lesvos, or Crete we can't understand their dialect. Does it mean that people there don't speak greek? And I can't believe Macedonians were so interested in being assimilated into the greek nation that they required to learn greek, they gave greek names to their children and spread the greek culture to the areas they conquered.
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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bg_turk
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Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:27 |
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Since all the signs that we have are in the Greek language and their names were also Greek, And how many signs do you have at all? One or two or at most a few, what a great statistical pool to make conclusions about the ancient macedonian language. You clearly have an agenda to prove the Macedonian language Greek. It is one thing to base your conclusions on existing evidence and to critically analyze your thesis against ALL evidence, completely another to have a predefined thesis and to look for evidence SELECTIVELY in order to support that thesis despite the evidence that doesn't support it. And there is sufficient evidence to suggest that Macedonian was incomprehensible to Greeks, and therefore could not have been the same language as Greek. Despite this you still choose to call it a dialect. Regarding Greek names - many Bulgarian names have Greek origins or are derivatives of Greek names, does this mean that Bulgarian is a Greek dialect. This exampe just illustrates that to judge a language by the names of the people who speak it is totally ridicuslous. PS I really do not appreciate how you deleted my posts. They were not at all irrelevant to the topic, and did give an insight into why Greeks are so keen to prove the Macdonian language is Greek. You once again unseremoniously deleted something with which you disagreed as if you have the absolute power to say what is relevant to a topic and what is true. I do spend time and effort to write my posts. In the future I would like to ask you to stop deleting posts in this unceremonious way, or at least to give some warning so that we can save our work and delete it ourselves. Edited by bg_turk - 06-Jul-2006 at 11:39 |
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bg_turk
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Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:36 |
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Do you in all your seriousness claim that you cannot comprehend a single word of the dialects Lesvos and Crete? I'd say then you are in serious need to imrpove the command of your native language. |
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akritas
Chieftain 
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:39 |
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Where is this "sufficient evidence" that suggest Macedonian was incomprehensible to Greeks? |
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 12:00 |
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Summirize the argyments as about the Macedonian language we have 5 facts
Fact 1-ISO Identification
Ancient Macedonian language (provisional ISO-DIS 639-3.5 XMK). Subgrouping Code : Ancient Greek language or IEGreekB Group code: Greek Language or IEGreek. Fact 2-Excavated inscriptions Fact 3-Words Fact 4-Evidence of non Greek inscription Fact 5-The Opposite side
Non of them that claim the opposite they don't have any single Linquistic proove in order to support theirs speculations
Edited by akritas - 06-Jul-2006 at 12:03 |
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bg_turk
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Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 12:18 |
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Let me summarize the evidence in support of the thesis that Macedonian was a distinct language (as Anton had suggested):
1. Philotas' trial where the Macedonian language is specifically mentioned (source: Cleitarchus) On that trial Alexander stated: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case, please state whether you will use your native language before them". When Philotas replies he'd rather use Greek to enable the present Greeks to understand as well, the king retorts: "Do you see how offensive Philotas finds even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember that he is conemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language. " 2. "But Alexander leaped to his feet and shouted in the Macedonian tongue for his bodyguards to turn out, a signal that this was an extreme danger." source: Plutarch , The Age of Alexander "called out in the Macedonian for the shieldbearers" (Plutarch, Greek Lives) 3. Episode with Eumenes, the Greek commander of Macedonian soldiers. He had to instruct a Macedonian to give command to the troops, which clearly shows that the troops needed to be addressed in Macedonian, otherwise he would have addressed them himself. 4. In Plutarch's "Life of Anthony" the Macedonian Dialect was specifically mentioned (the term dialect was applied for Egyptian, Hewbrew, Syrian,... as well) 5. Scholars have found 150 words that exhibit characteristics not found in the Greek language. |
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bg_turk
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Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 12:24 |
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This is not surprising since Greek was the standard writteng language in the Balkans. People who would have been familiar with the Greek script would have been also familiar with the Greek language and it is natural that heavy Greek influence is observed in their writings, whereas most ordinary speakers of the native Macedonian language would not have been able to write down in their language due to their unfamiliarity with the Greek script.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Macedonian was not a written language, so it is natural that very little "hard" copies of have remained. As Greek was the only written language in the area, it is only natural that the part of Macedonian that has remained is heavily influenced by Greek. The absence of scripts of the Macedonian spoken language, is not evidenc of the absence of that language even more so when several contemporaries of Alexander mention that it existed and was incomprehensible to Greeks. Edited by bg_turk - 06-Jul-2006 at 12:27 |
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 12:37 |
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So bg_turk your argyments is only arbitraries conclusions from some of historical written texts and non of them is any solid proove such as incscription.Because I have plenty of them
"Aetolians, Acarnanians, Macedonians, men of the same language"
(T. Livius XXXI,29, 15) "After this Alexandros left Dareios's mother, his daughters,and his son in Susa, providing them with persons to teach them the hellenic dialect,..."
(Diodoros of Sicily 17.67.1)
"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic Assembly: ... the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race ... In my day there were thirty members: six each from Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly ... "
(Pausanias Phokis VIII, 2 & 4) General Paulus of Rome surrounded by the ten Commissioners took his official seat surrounded by the whole crowds of Macedonians...Paulus announced in Latin the decisions of the Senate, as well as his own, made by the advice of his council. This announcement was translated into Greek and repeated by Gnaeus Octavius the Praetor-for he too was present." and i have 50 more quote(as I remember)
Where you find that 150 Macedonian words are not Greek ? As I know we have found it 154 Macedonian words.Do you know something better? |
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bg_turk
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Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 13:22 |
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Akritas, before we continue, I would like to ask you something. What evidence would be sufficient to pursuade you that Macedonian was different from the Greek language? In your opinion how different do languages have to be in order to be considered seperate languages rather than dialects? Now to answer your question. I think there is a consensus among historians that the existing historical scripts and texts in the "Macedonian language" ( mostly written in Greek letters) are insufficient and inconclusive and do not resolve in a definitive manner the dispute, and that more evidence is needed in order to support or refute the clailms about the origins of the Macedonian language. While some words manifest a strong resemblance of Greek, others are very distinct. Besides in order to form conclusions about Macedonian from these scripts one must assume that hey are correct representations of the spoken language, but having in mind that most Macedonian scholars capable of writing would have been raised and educated by Greeks or in Greece, one can safely assume that there will be a great Greek influence in their writing style even in their native language more so when there exist no written form of their spoken language, and it is looked down as the language of the illiterate masses. The scripts you present are therefore no evidence for the Greekness of Macedonian, they are evidence that those that wrote them were influenced by Greek. |
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dorian
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Joined: 20-May-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 370 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 13:40 |
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Ignorance and arrogance at the same time... He prefers advising to answering...
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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bg_turk
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Joined: 28-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2347 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 13:44 |
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So answer please. Do you in all your seriousness claim that you cannot comprehend a word of Cretan and Lesvian? Or is it only Cretans and Lesvians who can comprehend their own language? Edited by bg_turk - 06-Jul-2006 at 13:46 |
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 13:59 |
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One from the primary source to define a language is the writing system. The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Writing Systems defines a writing system as "a set of visible or tactile signs used to represent units of language in a systematic way". This simple explanation encompasses a large spectrum of writing systems with vastly different stylistic and structural characteristics spanning across the many regions of the globe. So the inscription or the script was, is and will be the major definition source of a language Yiannis answer you in your last question. There is no defined line between a language and a dialect, but it is often said that a language is a dialect with an army and a navy, a statement credited to Max Weinreich.
I told you many times. Were 154 Macedonian words.I am not saying the known words such as Philip or Alexander because are Greeks. 124 words have Greek roots. The others one are unknown, Thracian (Phrygian) and Illyrian origin. The Macedonian inscription not only have Greek letters but also deciphered (ALL) with the Greek language(Grammar,Words,Syntaxis)
The oral language is not proving anything specially when we speak for dead languages as the Macedonian. Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough grammar, or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. The scripts proove this conformation. The Macedonian inscriptions have as now that we speaking only Greek language. Linguistics is the scientific study of human language, and this proove what is the language. You mention for the Macedonian scholars. Can you tell me why non of them written a text different from any known script in order to show this gost language? Not a single sentence? Not only in Lower If we dont have any inscription that define a different language all the argyments are only arbitraries conclusions
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dorian
Consul
Joined: 20-May-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 370 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 14:09 |
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Why is it so difficult for you to understand?
Yeah Cretans, Lesvians, Cypriots and many other greek-speaking populations speak dialects that we cannot comprehend. It doesn't mean that we cannot comprehend a single word but the pronunciation or some words or the syntax they use make it difficult for us many times to catch the meaning. Even my grandparents when they talk in the local dialect sometimes I cannot understand them although they speak greek. That's why the greek language is so rich. Apart from the formal modern greek there are so many local dialects. That's what happened in the ancient times too.
Besides haven't you ever heared an englishman from London saying that he cannot comprehend an englishman from northern England? Or an american from New York who says that it's difficult for him to talk with an american from Texas?
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"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006 Location: Bulgaria Online Status: Offline Posts: 2888 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 14:34 |
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Finally we got some numbers:124 from 154 are considered to be greek. Akritas, do you know any internet source that decribes all of them, translates them into English and shows their greek counterparts? That would be interesting read... Ideally it would be interesting to get the translation of the whole text where every particular word is met but probably it is difficult to find int the internet.
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akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom Joined: 17-Sep-2005 Location: Greek Macedonia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1460 |
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Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 14:51 |
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As Dorian said is pointless because your opinion is predetermine...and I don't have any internet sourse.
In my first post you can see my sources.Read them even I doubt to read and all the others sources.
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