Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Ancient Macedonian language

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 12>
Author
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Macedonian language
    Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:26
Originally posted by akritas

Originally posted by bg_turk

 
Some Macedonians would claim that Ancient Macedonian was a slavic language. Of course such allegations are utter garbage.
Your above statement and  your  latter link is desperate attempt by you in order to support your claim as about the ancient Macedonian language.Your link is a utter garbage as you said.
 
So agree or not that the ancient Macedonian language was a Proto - (West) Slavic as the author of your link claim ?
 
 
BG_turk, my advise is not to answer this question.  Classical provocation :)
 
If you say no, that will disprove the whole content of these web sites. If you say yes, some sources about Slavic invasion in 6th century AD will be posted. In both cases you lose.
 
Guys, let us return to the topic back!


Edited by Anton - 05-Jul-2006 at 18:30
.
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:32
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:33
The above were passages from
 
Ancient Macedonians
J.S.G Gandeto
 
edit: sorry for the poor quality but it is still readable


Edited by bg_turk - 05-Jul-2006 at 18:34
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:38
Originally posted by akritas

So agree or not that the ancient Macedonian language was a Proto - (West) Slavic as the author of your link claim ?
I cannot imagine how the Ancient Macedonian language would in any way reseble the language of the Slavs, but it is possible that it affected the language of the Slavs that arrived, so the language of the Macedonian slavs migh contain some ancient Macedonian elements
 
In any case that I disagree with some of what the author said, does not mean that I disagree with all of what he said. And he does have very valid points arguing that Macedonian was not a Greek dialect.
 
If Alexander himself has uttered that he does not understand Greek and asked that Macedonian be spoken on that trial, then what better evidence that Macedonian was a distinct language?
 


Edited by bg_turk - 05-Jul-2006 at 18:47
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:47

Dear bg_turk the author of your google book  pages is the known Slavmacedonian nationalistic J. S. Gandeto as you said.

 
There is a similar article from him in
 
 
 
As you see I avoid to bring sourses from several propagndistic web site as you do.I prefer Universities or the Jstor!!!.
So finally  agree with the Veneti or Proto west Slavic theory because Gandeto,Stefou and many known nationalistic support this hypothesis.


Edited by akritas - 05-Jul-2006 at 18:50
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:54
Originally posted by akritas

Dear bg_turk the author of your google book  pages is the known Slavmacedonian nationalistic J. S. Gandeto as you said
 
On what do you base these assertions?
 
As you see I avoid to bring sourses from several propagndistic web site as you do.I prefer Univerities or the Jstor!!!.
 
In the other thread I did present books and articles published by Harvard, Princeton, and other universities.
 
So finally you agree with the Veneti or Proto west Slavic theory because Gandeto,Stefou and many known nationalistic support this hypothesis.
I am not sure what you mean here? As I pointed out I do not believe that ancient Macedonian was in any way influenced by the Slavs, that would have been impossible.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 19:14
Originally posted by akritas

Dear bg_turk the author of your google book  pages is the known Slavmacedonian nationalistic J. S. Gandeto as you said.

 
There is a similar article from him in
 
 
 
As you see I avoid to bring sourses from several propagndistic web site as you do.I prefer Universities or the Jstor!!!.
So finally  agree with the Veneti or Proto west Slavic theory because Gandeto,Stefou and many known nationalistic support this hypothesis.
 
 
Akritas, with all my respect, such sort of argumentation is far from brilliant...
.
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 05:16
Anton what  is this about? What a pathetic reaction is this? Are we here to discuss or to make coalitions?
 
I can't understand what you said "Bg Turk don't answer this question because blah blah blah" Are you a lawyer?
 
Have you come in this forum to talk against Greece or not? And please don't tell me that in another thread you ask for advice about how to be a philhellene Disapprove. More than half of your posts in this forum is against anything greek.
 
Bulgarian (including the Bulgarians from FYROM) nation always try to baptize the bulgarian language "Macedonian" and the Bulgarians "descendants of the ancient Macedonians". So stop this coalition about how to answer and what to answer because we are not in the court.
 
And Bg Turk, when Anton refers to Demosthenes and what the other Greeks said about Macedonians, it's necessary to read the greek history and not the history of the other Balkanian nations (I didn't expect from you to remind me that they have history too because I know it but when you try to abuse someone you should do it with something which is close to the topic).
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 05:49
Dorian, I respect you and akritas but sometimes your argumentation makes me disapointed. Any sort of arguments, whether they are true or not that are against greek point of view are called nationalistic by you. Why? In this particular question the language of ancient Macedonians has two points of view. One "greek" is supported by greeks considers that it was branch of greek language. To support this, arguments  are linguistic. Rather good to my opinion. Another school "nongreek" tries to support that it is not greek language. And main arguments are ethnical, from different sources . Which is also rather convincing. But you dont want to discuss other points of view. And to support your ideas you use very disapointig arguments, like casuistic and offense in "fyromicity" and nationalism. That's why I support BGturk even if I don't agree with him (I think that question is far from solution yet).

Edited by Anton - 06-Jul-2006 at 05:53
.
Back to Top
Perseas View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 14-Jan-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 06:28
Originally posted by Arbλr Z

Originally posted by dorian

But the repeated contestation doesn't prove anything... In this way we could say that the greco-phonic tribes (Dorians, Acheans, Ionians, Aeolians etc) were not original greek speaking tribes but maybe for some reason they adopted the greek language...

And what about their names? They adopted greek names too? The hellenization started in the 4th century BC or maybe in the 10th BC?
 
We could suppose that also, even though it is not worth, because in the moment that this tribes appeared in history, they were hellenic.
And regarding the names, we know them only through the hellenic sources,which could mean that the names were given a hellenic shape. If the persians wouldn exist until now (iranians) probably we wouldnt know the real name of Darius, Xerxes etc.
 
Yiannis, the Illyrian rulers used greek and later latin languages for their official inscriptions.
 
Not quite the case. The truth is that Greeks had a tedency to regularize foreign names into greek sounding names.
 
The name Darius for example is the regularization of the old Persian name Drayawu but there is a fundamental difference with the case of Macedonians.
 
All the regularised foreign names like the Persian or the Illyrian ones, have no meaning in Greek. On the other hand, the Macedonian names are completely meaningful in greek in their original forms, therefore there was no need anyone to regularize them and furthermore no need anyone to assume they are foreign.
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 06:36
I didn't know that it's offense to call people from FYROM, "FYROMians". In this way I shouldn't call you "Bulgarian".
 
You always disagree with anything posted from the greek side and sometimes without any obvious reason.
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
Raider View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Hungary
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 804
  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 06:45
Well, according to a Hungarian univesity textbook the Macedon was either a Greek dialect or a separate language very close to Greek.
 
I have always thought this duality might be similar to the Croat-Serb, Slovak-Czech etc. questions.
Back to Top
Perseas View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 14-Jan-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 06:45
Originally posted by bg_turk

 
Although the author of this article considers Macedonian to be a Greek "dialect", he does also suggest that it was incomprehensible to the other Greeks. I think one of the prime requirements of two spoken dialects to be a member of a single language is their mutual comprehesibility. Apparently that was lackin in the case of Macedonian and Greek.
 
I havent got much free time to read the article but you are wrong on your assumption. If i visit the island of Lesbos, i cant understand what they are saying although their dialect is a greek one. If i move to the island of Crete, things are a little better but still i have sometimes problems to understand what some of them say. Dialects have these peculiarities. If ancient Macedonians and Greeks had different languages and couldnt understand eachother, they would simply have translators. Apparently they never had. Macedonians used translators only with Persians and Illyrians for the simple reason, they couldnt understand eachother.
A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 06:48
Originally posted by dorian

I didn't know that it's offense to call people from FYROM, "FYROMians". In this way I shouldn't call you "Bulgarian".
 
You always disagree with anything posted from the greek side and sometimes without any obvious reason.
 
As usuall, you don't want to understand properly my words. I mean that anything posted from macedonian sites makes you wild :) And I am not from FYROM, I am from Bulgaria. And I very often agree with a lot of things posted from greek site. Sorry for continuous flaming...
.
Back to Top
Perseas View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 14-Jan-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 07:01

Another point i would like to make is sth i have spotted long ago in such discussions. Until now it seems all the archaeological inscriptions found and mostly the curse tablet of 4th cent. BC, which is the oldest 'Macedonian' text we have, are proving that Macedonians spoke a dialect related to North-West Greek.

Now, if arhaeologists discover eg. an inscription written in a different language than greek, and its older than the existing ones, this is obviously evidence that Macedonia had a language/dialect which wasnt greek.

But if they dont, as they havent found all these decades, this is only taken as evidence, from the posts i read that "Macedonia borrowed some greek vocabulary".

In other words, according to what you write, if they find archaeological discoveries, older than the existing in a different language that's proof Macedonia wasnt greek and if they dont, its proof Macedonia was kinda hellenized therefore it wasnt greek again.

All these examples, mean exactly nothing at all could be accepted as evidence that Macedonians were of greek origin since only evidence that they werent is counted.

It is logical that in order to perform a genuine discussion of a theory you must permit the possibility of evidence that would count against it. If you do not, the discussion cannot be genuine or constructive, because a discussion that is run with the presumption that nothing could count as a failure of a point is no real discussion at all, its a joke.

A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty.
Back to Top
dorian View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 20-May-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 370
  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 07:01
Originally posted by Anton

 
As usuall, you don't want to understand properly my words. I mean that anything posted from macedonian sites makes you wild :) And I am not from FYROM, I am from Bulgaria. And I very often agree with a lot of things posted from greek site. Sorry for continuous flaming...
 
Did I say that you are from FYROM? I referred to you as Bulgarian.
 
Nothing of the other aspects makes me wild... When I read an inscription and I can easily comprehend it or I notice that it's close to my language, I won't get angry if someone else says that this inscription is in slavic, bulgarian or chinese.
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
Back to Top
Anton View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 08:25
Actually I wanted to ask a question long time ago. What is the difference between greek dialect and separate language similar to greek? For example Italian and Spanish are similar to each other and they understand each other more or less (at least as I was told). But they are different.  Do you consider such a possibility with Ancient Greek language and ancient Macedonian? 
.
Back to Top
Yiannis View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Location: Neutral Zone
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2329
  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 08:51
Originally posted by Anton

  What is the difference between greek dialect and separate language similar to greek?  
 
Quite simply: a language is a dialect with an army and a flag...
 
 
The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics

Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
Back to Top
akritas View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Hegemom

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 09:07
Bg_turk i have my conclusion as about the Gandeto because the all book  is tottally un-accurate and has only speculations.
The best answer(except of course the Hoffman)  as about him and the claim of the Mekdonisti  came from Worthington "Alexander the Great: A Reader" page 21
 
 
 
Anton why advise the bg_turk to give answer in my question ? He spoken for  utter garbage and after bring me Panslavist sourse as about the amcient Macedonians.Are you agree with this theory?
 
As about in your question my answer is the Greek language phonetically and  grammatiically  is diffrent from the other languages .This is the reason that  Greek language is standing alone group.The Greek language doesn't have any bro language.
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 09:50
Originally posted by dorian

I didn't know that it's offense to call people from FYROM, "FYROMians". In this way I shouldn't call you "Bulgarian".


Bulgarian is an ethnic descirptor, FYROMian is not. You wouldn't call someone from the USSR, a USSRian, or fromthe USA USAian, or from the UK, UKian. It is ridicuslous to insist on using such acronyms to describe an entire people. It shows you have no respect for them.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.111 seconds.