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Ancient Macedonian language

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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Macedonian language
    Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 04:19
Originally posted by Arbлr Z

And second, you certainly provided some of the strong points of the theory about the hellenic identity of the Makednos, but to complete your presentations you should provide even your weakpoints (there surely are some) as well as the strong points of other theories. So we could choose between your statement, and others.
 
I tried to provide some of this references but the reaction was maladaptive, I don't know why.
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  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 21:00
akritas, this seems a well presented work. Certainly it needs more evidence, and if you could provide us more links, or authors it would be great.
I am not trying to say that macedonians were not greek, as I do not know what they were for sure, but in the light of your evidences and proofs, why the general opinion of modern historians do not accept the macedonians being greek.
And second, you certainly provided some of the strong points of the theory about the hellenic identity of the Makednos, but to complete your presentations you should provide even your weakpoints (there surely are some) as well as the strong points of other theories. So we could choose between your statement, and others.
 
Anyway, thank you, this is a interesting topic!
Prej heshtjes...!
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 20:46
Originally posted by dorian

So, although you are not interested about what Alexanders ethnicity was (you said that and you deleted it half an hour later) you should read greek history (especially the history of Macedonians), if you want to post your opinion instead of posting texts from the FYROMian sites.

 

The Pellas' katadesmos is probably dated before the times of Alexander the Great but maybe during the times of Phillip. This "Hellenization" of Macedonians, means that they started to use the attic dialect which overshadowed the other greek dialects and became the language of all the Greeks. The katadesmos is written in the doric dialect which means that it dates before the supposing "hellenization" otherwise it should have been written in the attic dialect. So, the conclusion is that this text is written in the doric dialect which was the language of Macedonians before their..."hellenization".

 

 

 

 
Yes, I said it and then delete it because it was flaming. I never visit sites from Republic of Macedonia.
 
You said:
 they started to use the attic dialect which overshadowed the other greek dialects and became the language of all the Greeks. 
 
Greek! That is the major question. Let us discuss it instead of flaming! It is really interesting question!  
 
 
 
That's a good argument.
 
 
Originally posted by dorian

And you should have always in mind when you're reading about Demosthenes in the FYROMian sites, that he was a sworn enemy of Macedonians.

 
That I didn't know. It is important to know but it doesn't make sense to me :)
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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 20:25

So, although you are not interested about what Alexanders ethnicity was (you said that and you deleted it half an hour later) you should read greek history (especially the history of Macedonians), if you want to post your opinion instead of posting texts from the FYROMian sites.

 

The Pellas' katadesmos is probably dated before the times of Alexander the Great but maybe during the times of Phillip. This "Hellenization" of Macedonians, means that they started to use the attic dialect which overshadowed the other greek dialects and became the language of all the Greeks. The katadesmos is written in the doric dialect which means that it dates before the supposing "hellenization" otherwise it should have been written in the attic dialect. So, the conclusion is that this text is written in the doric dialect which was the language of Macedonians before their..."hellenization".

 

And you should have always in mind when you're reading about Demosthenes in the FYROMian sites, that he was a sworn enemy of Macedonians.

 

 

"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 19:39
Originally posted by dorian

Akritas, whatever the linguistic proofs, the ancient inscriptions and all the other evidence are, they will always need more. Because they don't want to accept them..
 
So, it's pointless..
 
My friend, I didn't start this topic. But for those who are interested, would be probably interesting to know other points of view as well.  Especially if they are argumented  Tongue


Edited by Anton - 04-Jul-2006 at 20:12
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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 19:05
Akritas, whatever the linguistic proofs, the ancient inscriptions and all the other evidence are, they will always need more. Because they don't want to accept them..
 
So, it's pointless..
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 18:38

I am not convinced. If you would like to prove anything find more documents. Regarding this document you have written: Is a katadesmos (a curse, or magic spell) inscribed on a lead scroll, probably dating to between 380 and 350 BC.  How sure is this "probably"? It is well known that Macedonia became Hellenized during Alexander the Great  (356-323 BC) and his father times.  Thus, this document is exactly from that time or even later if your "probably" is not that sure.

Again some additional sources. To be honest I didn't read originals and not sure that this is propaganda :) If you find the original text I will modify this.

So,

1. Demosthenos writes regarding Philip: All these things that were stored by Lakedemons or us (Athen) ... but we are Hellens. This is not the case with Philipp --  he is neither greek nor barbarian from respected country. He is from Macedonia, place where one cannot buy even good slave from...  (This is not exact translation).
2. Rufus describes story about judgement  of somebody from Macedonia and Alexander asked him whether he prefers to speak Macedonian or greek. The guy said that he will prefer greek since a lot of people around might not understand him. And Alexander said: Did yousee that? He refuse to speak his father tongue. Youse how far he became from his own language and his culture. Thus, Alexander makes difference between his language and macedonian.   
3. Story about Olympic games and how macedonians were not allowed to participate in them was discussed before in this forum.
4. Will try to find some other sources.
 
Thus, there are several other opinions regarding Macedonian language. I do not care, just would like to know the truth whatever it is. Smile
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  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 14:04
To the question, what kind of language did the ancient Macedonians use, the answer can be given based on, what else, the existing references in ancient documents and the excavated inscriptions. What we have concluded is, that the ancient Macedonians were Hellenophon and the original dialect of the Hellenic language they used (Macedonian dialect) was very much similar to the Doric dialect (that is in accordance to Herodotus' references on the common origin of the Dorians and the Macedonians). Later on (in Hellenistic era) that dialect was gradually replaced by the Koini Attiki dialect, just like in all of the other Greek states. Every native Macedonian name, is Hellenic and is formed in the Hellenic way of producing words, as for example the names:

"Adista, Philista, Sostrata, Philotas, Perdikkas, Mahatas," and hundreds more
 

And, of course, the strongest evidence of the Greekness of the Macedonian dialect are:

  • The excavated inscriptions, where you can find only Greek characters and words
  • The coins of Macedonia, where again you can find only Greek characters and words
  • The quotations of the ancient writers on the Macedonians' speech
  • The characteristics of the Macedonian dialect
  • Etoimology of some names in Macedonia

Some years back,a German linguist by the name Otto Hoffman wrote a book with the title "Makedonians, their language and their Ethnicity". Hoffman analyzed the paradoxical or idiomatic words (calling them languages),which past grammaticals,lexicographers and more in general everyone engaged around the Hellenic language had noted them as "worthy to be analyzed" in Makedonia.

To begin with,all those people were believing that the Makedonian language was an Hellenic dialect, and exactly this is the reason mentioning certain of its peculiarities, had they believe that the Makedonian language was alien to that Hellenic one, there was not a reason mentioning those Makedonian paradoxical and/or idiomatic "languages". According to the same Hoffman his conclusions after "supervising" other peoples work are the following:

""And now after supervising the ancient Makedonian linguistic thesaurus we are posting the decisive question,if what is adding to the Makedonian language its character,are the hellenic or the barbarian elements of it,the responce can not be of any doubts. From the 39 "languages" that according to Gustav Mayer their form was "completely alien" has been proven after this research of mine,that 10 of them are clearly Hellenic,with 4 more possibly dialectical forms of common hellenic words,so from the entire collection are remaining only 15 words appearing to be justifiable or at least suspected of anti-hellenic origins.Adding to those 15, few others which with regards their vocals could be hellenic,without till now being confirmed as such,then their number, in comparison to the number of pure hellenic ones in the Makedonian language,is so small that the GENERAL HELLENIC CHARACTER OF THE MAKEDONIAN LINGUISTIC TREASURE CAN NOT BE DOUBTED.

The official code name that given recetly from the linqustics is
 
Ancient Macedonian language (provisional ISO-DIS 639-3.5 XMK).
Subgrouping Code : Ancient Greek language or IEGreekB
Group code: Greek Language or IEGreek
.
 
One from the strong arcaelogical evidence that show what language spoken from the ancient Macedonians is the Pella katadesmos .Is a katadesmos (a curse, or magic spell) inscribed on a lead scroll, probably dating to between 380 and 350 BC. It was found in Pella (at the time capital of Macedon) in 1986; it was published in the Hellenic Dialectology Journal in 1993.

The tab has been dated by the original publishers to the "Mid-4th century BC or slightly earlier (letter forms, spelling)". This dating has been contested by Prof. Edmonds of Bryn Mawr College, who proposes a 3rd century BC date.

The former opinion is concurred by the Oxford Classical Dictionary, in which Professor Olivier Masson writes: "Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it {i.e. Macedonian} an Aeolic dialect (O.Hoffmann compared Thessalian) we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote). This view is supported by the recent discovery at Pella of a curse tablet (4th cent. BC) which may well be the first 'Macedonian' text attested (provisional publication by E.Voutyras; cf. the Bulletin Epigraphique in Rev. Et. Grec. 1994, no.413); the text includes an adverb "opoka" which is not Thessalian." (OCD, 1996, pp 905, 906).

Of the same opinion is James L. O'Neil's (of the University of Sydney) presentation at the 2005 Conference of the Australasian Society for Classical Studies, entitled "Doric Forms in Macedonian Inscriptions" (abstract):
"A fourthβcentury BC curse tablet from Pella shows word forms which are clearly Doric, but a different form of Doric from any of the west Greek dialects of areas adjoining Macedon. Three other, very brief, fourth century inscriptions are also indubitably Doric. These show that a Doric dialect was spoken in Macedon, as we would expect from the West Greek forms of Greek names found in Macedon. And yet later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants. The native Macedonian dialect had become unsuitable for written documents."
 
 
In English the text of Pella katasemos
 
On Thetima and Dionysophon the ritual wedding and the marriage I bind by a written spell, as well as (the marriage) of all other women (to him), both widows and maidens, but above all of Thetima; and I entrust (this spell) to Macron and to the daimones. And were I ever to unfold and read these words again after digging (the tablet) up, only then should Dionysophon marry, not before; may he indeed not take another beside myself, but let me alone grow old by the side of Dionysophon and no one else. I implore you: have pity for [Phila (?)], dear daimones, [for I am indeed bereft (?)] of all my dear ones and abandoned. But please keep this (piece of writing) for my sake so that these events do not happen and wretched Thetima perishes miserably [---] but let me become happy and blessed
 
source:
1- Hellenic Dialectology Journal in 1993
2- C. Brixhe, A. Panayotou, Le MacΓdonien in: Langues indo-europΓennes, ed. Bader, Paris, 1994, 205β220.
3-http://bibleocean.com/OmniDefinition/Pella_katadesmos
4-Hatzidakis,The language of the ancient Macedonians
 

 


Edited by akritas - 05-Aug-2006 at 06:36
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