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A "Hedonistic Country"? |
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Aelfgifu 
Caliph 
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: A "Hedonistic Country"?Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 13:08 |
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If you want to insult somebody, please do it right to their face. I hate this 'I'm naming no names' sh*t.
And don't you dare to compare the right for homosexuals to marry, which is a right depraved to too many in this world, to a couple of f***heads who taught pedophilia-s*** up.
This country has freedom of speech, so one can not prohibit political parties when they are not breaking the law. Talking about pedophilia is not against the law. As soon as they even put one step wrong, they'll be toasted.
And besides, as Mixcoatl said: of course our whole country is pedophilic....
Grow f***ing up man. Edited by Aelfgifu - 06-Jul-2006 at 13:09 |
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Cywr
King 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 03-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 6003 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:25 |
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It doesn't say a great deal about the personal morality of the citizens of the country (only that they don't feel ramming it down everyone else's throats, though some of them do try, you'd probably like them), nor does it prove that it is especialy hedonistic, unless you're suggesting that paedophillic behaviour is considered normal and acceptable there. |
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 Arrrgh!!"
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ataman
Chieftain 
Joined: 27-Feb-2006 Location: Poland Online Status: Offline Posts: 1108 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 23:27 |
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Cywr, how many democratic countries (with so called 'a freedom of speech') do you know? And how many of them have a party (or any other organization) which wants a legalization of pedophilia?
I don't blame every citizen of Netherlands for pedophilia. But I'd like to point out that only this country has enough good atmosphere for pedophils to creat a party of pedophils.
BTW of so called 'a freedom of speech' in Netherlands. I wonder if the law in that country really permits to say everything. I wonder if exhort to racism is legal. I wonder if Nazi or racialists can have their party too. I wonder if sombody can say everything about everybody without any consequence. Edited by ataman - 07-Jul-2006 at 00:38 |
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Illuminati
General 
Joined: 08-Dec-2004 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 949 |
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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 01:35 |
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The US has a group called NAMBLA (National man-boy love association). It's a group of all pedophiles and they try to push their political agenda.The Netherlands isn't the only country with a pedophilia group. And, it's not that there are more pedophiles in the Netherlands, it's merely that they feel safe and free enough there to form their own party. Edited by Illuminati - 07-Jul-2006 at 01:41 |
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 04:56 |
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One of the people behind this weird party got kicked out of school, as he was doing a'training for children-mentoring. The judge deemed the school was in its right.
Yes, it is technically possible to have a Nazi-party in the Netherlands, as it is a free country. But the interdiction of discrimination is our first amendment, so as soon as they would propagate their ideals, they would be arrested and tried. The same for phedopaelia: it is a right of everyone to start a political party. Talking about phedopaelia is not illegal, so they cannot be prohibited. But the practice of it is, so I would imagine the people in the party are under close observation now.
The main thing is, that neither a nazi-party, nor a phedopaelia party would get any support of concequense from the majority of the population. In a democracy, it is about the will of the majority.
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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Northman
Tsar 
Suspended Joined: 30-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4262 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 06:34 |
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On a little more merry string, I think we could call Denmark hedonistic to some degree.... at least a few years back.
Jacob Haugaard, a well known Dane ran for parliament in 1994 with this program:
He was elected with 23.000 personal votes, and sat in parliament for his 4 years period. I dont know if this can be defined as hedonistic, but I think its about pleasure
 He also wrote a couple of books: "If work is healthy, why not give work to sick people" and " First time voting for Dummies" Edited by Northman - 07-Jul-2006 at 06:37 |
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 06:36 |
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In the Netherlands we had a "Party for More Partying". It didn't make it though...
 Edited by Aelfgifu - 07-Jul-2006 at 06:37 |
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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Guests
Guest 
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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 07:06 |
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And after universal suffrage was introduced in 1917 there was the Rapaillepartij ('Riffraff party') in Amsterdam, probably the first satirical party worldwide. It was founded by people who opposed universal suffrage, some of them later became fascists, others were anarchists.
Its most important proposals were free gin and lifting the ban on fishing in parts. As the party's leader for the municipal elections a local and wellknown tramp was selected. He was arrested though a few days before the elections, and 'voluntarily' withdrew. Nonetheless the party got 2 seats. The party member that was elected in the municipal council took office for the entire 4 years, but said something only once, when he asked if the window could be closed.
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flyingzone
Caliph
Joined: 11-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2630 |
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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 09:46 |
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Again, I find it unfortunate that some people are equating "hedonism" with "immorality". I think "hedonism" is actually a neutral term, if not slightly positive. It means the pursuit of "la joie de vivre". If one has to make it negative, one can argue that it could make someone a little egocentric or selfish. For those who insist on bringing pedophilia into this discussion, you are focusing on one narrow definition of hedonism - the pursuit of sensual pleasure, but even sensuality itself has NOTHING to do with pedophilia. A good massage is sensual. Even a good dessert can be sensual. Having sex with children is not. If you want to talk about pedophilia, please either go to another thread where that topic is discussed or start your own thread. You are in the wrong place.
Edited by flyingzone - 07-Jul-2006 at 10:25 |
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ataman
Chieftain
Joined: 27-Feb-2006 Location: Poland Online Status: Offline Posts: 1108 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 11:26 |
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Ok.
Definition from 'Cambridge International Dictionary of English':
hedonism - living and behaving in ways that mean you get as much pleasure out of life as possible, according to the belief that the most important thing in life is to enjoy yourself.
So, hedonism must be immoral, because morality doesn't agree with the belief that the most important thing in life is to enjoy yourself. Edited by ataman - 07-Jul-2006 at 11:28 |
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 11:37 |
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Anything good in life is either illegal, immoral or fattening - Murphy's law. I really pity those who think morals and enjoyment do not mix. Poor people, their lives must be so miserable. |
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flyingzone
Caliph
Joined: 11-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2630 |
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Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 13:43 |
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That's so silly. If the most important thing in my life is to help people because I find enormous enjoyment in doing so, am I being immoral? If the most enjoyable thing I find in life is to eat tonnes and tonnes of chocolate and I really indulge in that activity, am I being immoral? I might become very fat, but immoral? I don't think so.
Ataman, I think you find the idea of "hedonism" immoral just because you are automatically associating it with S-E-X. But ask yourself: why is it in your mind that the only enjoyment in life has to be sexual? Do you have some unfulfilled wishes buried deep inside your unconscious that you haven't resolved yet?
Edited by flyingzone - 07-Jul-2006 at 13:56 |
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 14:05 |
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The first sunny day in spring
Sailing when there is lots of wind
Eating a pint of Ben and Jerrys while watching Pride and Prejudice
Walking through the polder and haering only the wind and the birds
Meeting with a friend and drink 2 bottles of wine while gossiping about everyone
Reading a favorite book again
the first cup of coffee in the morning
Buying someone a present you know they will like
all pleasures, but immoral?
I dont live for work, I work to live. And I want to enjoy myself while I'm at it. I only live once. Edited by Aelfgifu - 07-Jul-2006 at 14:06 |
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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ataman
Chieftain
Joined: 27-Feb-2006 Location: Poland Online Status: Offline Posts: 1108 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 17:49 |
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If you have ill kids and you spent all your monay for tonnes of chocolates and therefore you don't have monay for a medicine for your kids then your pleasure is immoral. It's very simple, isn't t?
If you like a beer (which is nothing bad), but you spent all your time and monay for drinking beer, and your family suffer thanks to your pleasure then it is immoral.
If you like gambling (which is nothing bad), but you don't have monay for this pleasure and you rob monay to can gable then it is immoral.
Read definition of 'hedonism' again. It is not just a pleasure. Hedonism means that your pleasure is more important than anything else. Therefore it is immoral.
Flyingzone, if you automatically associate everything with S-E-X, you should visit some doctor
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flyingzone
Caliph
Joined: 11-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2630 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 19:49 |
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You are still confouding hedonism with immorality. You are making the assumption that the person who loves chocolates enjoys chocolates more than the life of his or her kid. Have you thought of the possibility that the person could see his or her kid's presence being the most enjoyable element of his or her life? Maybe he or she might even feed his or her kid tonnes and tonnes of chocholates the way he or she feeds himself/herself. But this is, of course, another story.
Moreover, alcholics and people addicted to gambling are not "hedonistic" (not at least according to the real definition of hedonism). Alcoholics and gambling addicts are sick people who, in most cases, do not even enjoy drinking and gambling anymore. They are in fact in a lot of pain while engaging in those activities. So by defintion, they are not hedonists.
But if you had carefully read my post, you should have noticed that I had indeed pointed out that hedonists can be selfish and egocentric. Too much of anything is never a good thing. However, to automatically label hedonists as "immoral" is a gross distortion and misunderstanding of that term. There is nothing "immoral" about knowing what one likes in life and tries to enjoy it to its fullest.
Edited by flyingzone - 07-Jul-2006 at 19:50 |
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red clay
Administrator 
Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 21:19 |
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attaman wrote-
So, hedonism must be immoral, because morality doesn't agree with the belief that the most important thing in life is to enjoy yourself.
One can enjoy life without denying any other commitments. To pleasure oneself at the expense of home and family is irresponsible and in some circumstances illegal. No, hedonism is not immoral, at least by my standards of morality. Self enjoyment is part of a healthy balance in life. Yes, I am a member of the " if it feels good, do it" generation and I have lived my life to that ideal, am I immoral ? Not by my standards and I hold myself to a higher standard than some clerics. So, part of the problem is, whats immoral and what isn't and who decides this. One of the main reasons you cannot legislate morality. Edited by red clay - 07-Jul-2006 at 21:24 |
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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flyingzone
Caliph
Joined: 11-Dec-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2630 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 22:10 |
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You know what, I think one of the reasons why some of us find Ataman's position so hard to reconcile with is the fact that he has a very extreme, if not legalistic, view on what constitutes both hedonism and morality, especially the latter. Now to be fair, the term "hedonism" itself does imply quite an extreme liking for something. The question is, how "extreme" is that extreme. According to Ataman, a hedonist is someone who likes something so much to the complete neglect of others. "Our" definition of a hedonist is, on the other hand, someone who knows how to enjoy life to its fullest. So maybe in a way we are not even talking about the same thing.
An interesting example came to my mind. A lot of celebrities are very "hedonistic", but the actress Angelina Jolie is particularly known to be a "hedonist", probably because of her reputation for being very "sexual" (a lot of people still confuse being sexual with being hedonistic). But like most people, even Angelina Jolie - the grande seductress and the hedonist - is not a one dimensional person. She has adopted two orphans (which might have caused her second marriage). She has so far been the most genuine and sincere Goodwill Ambassador for the United Nations High Commission for Refugees. She has also been known to be one of the most generous Hollywood celebrities, donating thousands of dollars to charities.
In regard to the question of "morality", my disagreement with Ataman is actually even more profound. Ataman sees morality as something that disagrees with the belief that the most important thing in life is to enjoy yourself. However, I think it is unquestionable that morality has nothing to do with depriving oneself of the right to pleasure. Deprivation of pleasure is not morality. It is asceticism. I suspect that it's Ataman's inability to distinguish between these two concepts that explains his silence on the example that I gave earlier: If someone whose sense of enjoyment and self-fulfilment derives entirely from helping people, is that person an immoral one?
Edited by flyingzone - 07-Jul-2006 at 22:17 |
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ataman
Chieftain
Joined: 27-Feb-2006 Location: Poland Online Status: Offline Posts: 1108 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 01:37 |
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Exactly. We are not talking about the same thing.
Can't you understand that between a pleasure and a hedonism is a fundamental differention? And can't you understand that I don't claim that a pleasure is immoral? I claim that hedonism is immoral. Edited by ataman - 08-Jul-2006 at 01:44 |
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ataman
Chieftain
Joined: 27-Feb-2006 Location: Poland Online Status: Offline Posts: 1108 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 01:41 |
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Red Clay, the law of every country is based on morality. So it is not true that 'you cannot legislate morality'. The morality is already legislated.
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Aelfgifu
Caliph
Joined: 25-Jun-2006 Location: Netherlands Online Status: Offline Posts: 3387 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 04:09 |
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If Hedonism is the pursuit of pleasure, how can it be fundamentally different from pleasure?
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
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