Germans of Sudetenland - where are they now?

Originally posted by konstantinius   Some of you are not going to like this but I think that Germany is too small today. All those areas up to Koeningsberg and Tallin are German, well not anymore since the populations left, I guess. Germany lost lands just because the Russkies had to take Polish lands and that pushed the borders further West. It was the Western allies who accomodated the Reds to every extend imposing an artifial and superimposed order of things in post-war Europe. If Poland is seeking compensation from Germany, well, shouldn't they seek compensation from Russia too? Or is that a no-no?

Originally posted by Komnenos Originally posted by konstantinius   Some of you are not going to like this but I think that Germany is too small today. All those areas up to Koeningsberg and Tallin are German, well not anymore since the populations left, I guess. Germany lost lands just because the Russkies had to take Polish lands and that pushed the borders further West. It was the Western allies who accomodated the Reds to every extend imposing an artifial and superimposed order of things in post-war Europe. If Poland is seeking compensation from Germany, well, shouldn't they seek compensation from Russia too? Or is that a no-no?      Good to see that you are right at least in one point.   The former German province of "Ostpreussen" whose capital Kaliningrad was, was the product of German colonial expansion from the 13th century onwards and throughout the next seven centuries never really changed its status as a German colony. Whilst the major urban centres, mostly the merchant cities on the Baltic Sea were indeed almost totally Germanised, the agricultural hinterland was, apart from the German aristocratic land owners, mainly inhabitated by the indigenous population, a mixture of Baltic and Slavic people. In a number of censi ( is that the plural of census?) in the last years of the second German Empire, the ethnic division between Germans and Poles and Baltic people was about 50%:50%. To say that these regions have been thoroughly German at any point in history, is simply wrong.

Originally posted by TheDiplomat Originally posted by konstantinius Germany lost lands just because the Russkies had to take Polish lands and that pushed the borders further West. If Poland is seeking compensation from Germany, well, shouldn't they seek compensation from Russia too? Or is that a no-no?    You have made some valid points here. Poland was simply picked up and moved 100-km westward. In my opnion,Russkies equally bear responsibility with The Germans for what happened to Poland in the Second World War. All in all, it was the Nazi-Soviet Pact,one of the most astonishing treaties of history given the fact two extremly hostile regimes come to terms, that encouraged The Germans to invade Poland and sing the song ''Wir fahren nach Polen''.

Russians call themselves ''Ruskie'' in the Russian language,and I was answering to Konstantinus' cocnern.therefore i prefered to repeat in the way he wrote

Originally posted by Komnenos   Good to see that you are right at least in one point.   The former German province of "Ostpreussen" whose capital Kaliningrad was, was the product of German colonial expansion from the 13th century onwards and throughout the next seven centuries never really changed its status as a German colony. Whilst the major urban centres, mostly the merchant cities on the Baltic Sea were indeed almost totally Germanised, the agricultural hinterland was, apart from the German aristocratic land owners, mainly inhabitated by the indigenous population, a mixture of Baltic and Slavic people. In a number of censi ( is that the plural of census?) in the last years of the second German Empire, the ethnic division between Germans and Poles and Baltic people was about 50%:50%. To say that these regions have been thoroughly German at any point in history, is simply wrong.

Originally posted by Sarmata Germany's eastern borders originally were inhabited by Slavs, the borders of Germany are just a symbol of mass genocide, they whiped out the Polabians and other western slavic groups inhabiting that land. Prussia is also a symbol of genocide as the Teutonic knights, after being invited by Konrad mazowiecki to help with the Prussian "problem", totally whipped them out by ocnverting the pagans witht he sword. Prussia and east germany are symbols of genocide. And no there is no reaosn why Poland should give back the land it gained for what it went through in the second world war, if anything they should get back their eastern borders with the ones they got after the war.

Prussia was a historical reality untill its abolishment post-WW II. Historically, yes, it was a creation of expansion and taking over of local populations, i.e. pagan Lithuanians of the time; but the history of the creation of most European states can boast the same: should the Spaniards speak of the expulsion of the Moors? The Norman nobility of its systematic take-over of the thegns in post-Hastings England? The systematic subjugation of the fiercely independent French nobility,especially during the reigns of Phillip Augustus and his father ( Louis IV, V,or VI, I am not sure which, sorry)? The enormous chaos and bloodshed of the French revolution? The colonial wars of imperialistic expansion in Africa and Asia? Even Poles have waged wars of agression against their neighbors (Lithuania? Please correct me if I'm wrong) during their short times as independent state, as have Hungarians againsts Croats and Romanians. Actually, when you get to the Balkans the list gets rather long.
My point is, how can someone complain about the unfairness of the creation of the Prussian entity since a similar act of agression/expansion is very likely to have been an integral part of the creation of your own ethnic unit within the post-1600 history of Europe? Is there actually a European nation  that can claim a blank record on this? Belgium, Ireland, and Finland are perhaps the only ones out of what, 50-so European nations? Europeans have been the bloodiest combatants in world history, with the Americans racing to catch up in recent years. Hellow, wake up. Europeans have bloodied and exterminated populations on other continents and caused unspeakable bloodshed amongst themselves over issues of religion and nationalism and TWO  World Wars. The expansion of Prussia is what makes your ear sweat?
Germany's affliction was that it turned Nazi and rose to dominate all of  Europe, not its traditional sphere of influence NE, E, SE of its present eastern border.

Edited by konstantinius - 22-Oct-2006 at 20:56