Germans of Sudetenland - where are they now?

Originally posted by yan. wintersonnenwende is a neo-nazi or at leat a revisionist website, so don't take it too seriously.     In answer to the OP: A lot of them finally settled in Bavaria. That's why the CSU is rather hardline on German-Czech relations.   The numbers of deported and the wikipedia excerpt sound about right. The expulsions and violence started after the capitulation of the Wehrmacht, with probably quite obvious reasons (occupation of bohemia and moravia, treatment of czechs, or for the slovaks the suppression of the slovak uprising of 1944).   I've read that several 100.000 Czechs were deported from the Sudeten areas after 1938, so your friend is probably right.   Since most states decline remedies for personal losses in connection to WWII - for good reason, btw - there are few chances anyone from those areas will ever see a cent of compensation. Just like people who had their houses destroyed or relatives killed by German troops, or British bombs for that matter. That doesn't mean that noone tries to get money, of course.   I don't know what the chances are for Sudeten Germans to return to the czech republic, but I guess with the EU-membership of Czech there exists some kind of procedure to settle there.       I answer to some other posts: Germans in Czechoslovakia were certainly treated much better than Germans in South Tyrol (I think no status of German as an official language, no german schools, no german political parties etc, Mussolini definitely wanted them out, and in the end, Germany and Italy even agreed to move them to Poland and the Crimea). The Sudeten germans (or at least Henlein and his followers)  let themselves be used as Hitlers tool.   Germany never asked for compensation from anyone. Of course it would be a rather unintelligent move, too. That Poland mistakes a group of privateers like the Prussian Treuhand as a representation of the german public is a rather alarming sign, though. Maybe some people need to cool down a bit.   Wikipedia has an entry with estimations of losses among the German population in Eastern Europe at the end and after WWII which gives rather familar numbers. Keep in mind that these numbers include or may include evacuations from areas threatened by the Red Army at the end of WWII, forced expulsions at the beginning and after WWII, and deportations to labour camps in the USSR, and include an error range.   Sudeten refers to a group of mountain ranges in northern Bohemia and Moravia (that is, today's Czech Republic). The name Sudetendeutsche generally refers to ethnic Germans in the border areas of Bohemia and Moravia to Germany.   That article "Czechoslovakia takes Revenge" refers to events within Czechoslovakia. That the towns they mention sound german is because they were inhabitated by Germans and therefore also had German names (Aussig is, for example, the german name for Usti nad Labem, Troppau is the German name for Opava). That they distinguish between German and Austrian ethnicity seems a bit artificial. Maybe it's because Czechoslovakia had been part of the Austro-Hungarian empire before 1919. Anyway, the article didn't seem to contain any mention of events on Austrian (as of post-1919) soil.   it's not really correct that the evacuations from East Prussia etc. were all started on official order. At first, they were rather spontanous. The authorities wanted the army to fight harder and of course giving the impression they'd have to protect their women and children would be needed. Also, leaving parts of German territory would be bad for the morale in areas further within the Reich. Thus, they even forbade evacuations at first until it was almost too late (onset of winter etc.).   Back to the sudetes, I think the expulsions had little to do with orders of the Great Powers. As stated, the violence started right after May 9th, and I don't think the Czechs did receive any orders from the US, Soviet or British governments. I think Hungary was a different story, but then, Hungary had been treated as an ally by the Germans.

Originally posted by yan. Originally posted by ataman   Yan, I believe that most of the Poles and Germans want normal relationships between our countries. Therefore I can't understand why German government don't want to do what Polish government did years ago. Polish government accepted that if any Polish citizen (this one who was expulsed from these territories which are today in Lithuania, Belorus and Ukraine) wants any compesation for lost property, he has to address his demands to Polish government. In this way Poland avoided any problem with our neighbours and our relationships are not injured by any demands of expulsed Poles. Why German government won't do the same? Why German government ignores this problem and permits to injure our relationships? Do you know what feel the Poles who are threated by these German minority (like Prussian Treuhand) which wants to get back their properties in Poland?   The answer probably is: They simply have more important things to do than caring about every turn of popular sentiment in some foreign country.   Are you saying that Polish citizens are not allowed to go to the European court in order to try and gain some real estate in Wolhynia or Galicia, i.e. does Poland restrict its citizen's right on due process out of fear of some other country's populists? My guess is this isn't really the case, and if there was any valuable real estate in Western Ukraine, someone would eventually come up with exactly that Treuhand idea. When exactly was that regulation you mentioned introduced, btw?   I guess the German government's position is that its citizens are free to seek compensation for whatever and whereever. As long as you can find an instance that is interested in your worries, feel free to complain. Esp since in turn, citizens of other countries are free to seek compensation for whatever they want from the German government. But certainly it's not the German taxpayer's responsibilty to compensate people for what foreign Governments have done to them.

Originally posted by Majkes   They were very valuable real estates in Western Ukraine, Belarous and Lithuania e.g. palaces of Polish Aristocracy. People can sue Polish goverment and they are doing so. Later they can go to the European Court but against Poland. I think that if Poland can afford to take claims against their neighbours for its Budget, German goverment should be also able to do so. If not why are Germans suprised that e.g. Polish Local Communes will demand compensations from Germany? If German can demand their money than Polish will do it as well. It would be enormous money. Warsaw Local Commune values its losses for 50 billions euro and its only for destroyed buildings.

I agree with Yan that the German government cannot be expected to deal with the human right violations against its citizens caused by another country.

Originally posted by Majkes But when Germans sue Polish goverment You call it justice and when Polish and Poland want to sue Germans You call it Nationalism. Can You explain this?

I think, that bg_turk dont sympathize to the slavic peoples (and to the christian peoples in principle). And i think, that he have personal reasons for this.

That`s my personal opinion about the feelings of bg_turk about the slavs and the christians:

He is living in a region in Bulgaria(near to Turkey) where the turks and the muslim bulgarians(pomaks) are majority. He feel that turkish & muslim majority, and he thinks that the bulgarian turks must learn to speak only turkish language(and western languages too) but not also bulgarian(except if they want this). But i think, that in the same time he thinks that the kurds who are living in Turkey must learn to speak not only kurdish language but also turkish.

Also he supports most of the historical actions of Turkey and the Ottoman Empire. For him, the bloodly, the cruel, the destructive and the disgusting turkish invasion in the Balkans is the greatest thing, no matter how many were the christian victims and losses in the time of the turkish rule of the Balkans, and in the same time for him the liberation  of the balkan peoples from the oppressive turkish rule is a horrible thing.

He "don`t give a damn" about the islamic assimilation of millions bulgarians(and christians as a whole) in the times of the turkish rule in the Balkans, and he fervently supports the assimilation of big part of the bulgarian people into "macedonian people" and "pomak people" nowadays.

For him the worst assimilation in the Balkans ever was the stupid communistic attempt to convert the bulgarian turks into bulgarians between 1984-1989. And he ascribe this event not only to the communistic rulers(they were bad rulers for all bulgarian citizens with small exceptions) but to the whole bulgarian people.

For him the real invaders in the Balkans were not the turks, but these christian states who helps for the liberation of the miserable/wretched christians who were living as a "giaurs" under the opppressive turkish islamic rule. In example, i don`t think that the brave resistance of the polish rulers against the turkish invaders were a good thing for him.
And so >>> he don`t like the slavs as a whole, except the "bosniaks" only because they are muslims(thanks to the turks, naturally) and they are a part of the turkish-muslim inheritance in the balkans.

...

But these are natural things for one turk & muslim, and because of that, he cannot make me angry. For me he is an interesting person, and i like to read his posts. In fact one of his posts cause me to become a member of AE, and i am pleased at that.



Edited by The Chargemaster - 19-Dec-2006 at 09:35

Originally posted by The Chargemaster That`s my personal opinion about the feelings of bg_turk for the slavs and the christians:

Wrong. I harbor no ill feelings towards Slavs, in fact I am very close to Slavs.

He is living in a region in Bulgaria(near to Turkey)

Wrong again. Kardjali is closer to the Greek border

He feel that turkish & muslim majority, and he thinks that the bulgarian turks must learn to speak only turkish language(and western languages too) but not also bulgarian(except if they want this).

Wrong. Never said anything like that. I said that Turks should have the right to study their language in ADDITION to Bulgarian, which is very very different from what you say above.

Also he supports most of the historical actions of Turkey and the Ottoman Empire.

wrong and offtopic

For him, the bloodly, the cruel, the destructive and the disgusting turkish invasion in the Balkans is the greatest thing, no matter how many were the christian victims and losses in the time of the turkish rule of the Balkans, and in the same time for him the liberation  of the balkan peoples from the oppressive turkish rule is a horrible thing. He "don`t give a damn" about the islamic assimilation of millions bulgarians(and christians as a whole) in the times of the turkish rule in the Balkans, and he fervently supports the assimilation of big part of the bulgarian people into "macedonian people" and "pomak people" nowadays. For him the worst assimilation in the Balkans ever was the stupid communistic attempt to convert the bulgarian turks into bulgarians between 1984-1989. And he ascribe this event not only to the communistic rulers(they were bad rulers for all bulgarian citizens with small exceptions) but to the whole bulgarian people. For him the real invaders in the Balkans were not the turks, but these christian states who helps for the liberation of the miserable/wretched christians who were living as a "giaurs" under the opppressive turkish islamic rule. In example, i don`t think that the brave resistance of the polish rulers against the turkish invaders were a good thing for him. And so >>> he don`t like the slavs as a whole, except the "bosniaks" only because they are muslims(thanks to the turks, naturally) and they are a part of the turkish-muslim inheritance in the balkans. ... But these are natural things for one turk & muslim, and because of that, he cannot make me angry. For me he is an interesting person, and i like to read his posts. In fact one of his posts cause me to become a member of AE, and i am pleased at that.

Charge,

I would love to answer your opinionated post about me but not now and not in this thread.

Off to New York now.


Edited by bg_turk - 29-Jul-2006 at 14:37

Originally posted by bg_turk [QUOTE=Majkes] Yep, I also think so. Maybe He should leave Bulgaria and move to Turkey.

Hm, who are you to tell me to leave my country? [QUOTE]

I don't think you really understand the situation either. Or you just have problems making yourself clear.

Edited by yan. - 03-Aug-2006 at 07:40

Originally posted by yan. I don't think you really understand the situation either. Or you just have problems making yourself clear.   The idea of the Prussian Treuhand is to get that real estate back via the EU court of Justice. Naturally, they don't expect Polish, Czech, Slovak or whatever national courts to hand over that real estate, or to even accept their lawsuits. That's where the ECJ as superior instance comes into play. Obviously trying to get the ECJ to deal with real estate in the Kaliningrad oblast is rather futile, since Russia is no EU member yet (please correct me if I am wrong) and therefore the ECJ doesn't have any jurisdiction over it.   As stated before, Germany will not pay any compensation to these guys. First, apart from some other country's popular sentiment, there is no legal, moral or whatever reason to do so. Second these guys don't want compensation, they want that land. Third there is no guarantee they don't file lawsuits no matter how much money they get. Fourth there is no guarantee Poland won't get angry over any given other issue (like stupid satires).   I have to wonder, though, if that compensations for lands in Ukraine won't backfire. If Poland thinks it has to compensate people for land taken away by another government, why do they think they don't need to compensate people whose land Poland herself took away? Anyway, I'd still like to know when that Polish compensation regulations were put into effect, i.e. before or after the Prussian Treuhand appeared on the radar?   Also as stated before, there is no legal basis to seek compensations for acts of war. If your house gets blown up by the military because they want to build a road/they need a free line of sight/they think you were hiding weapons/they were to drunk to notice someone actually owned that house/whatever in a war, you are basically f**ked. This is international practice and no one, not even Poland, is going to change it. As far as I know, the only legally binding way to get compensation for war damages is to make a country sign a treaty which explicitly states that reparations will be payed. Usually, such treaties are only signed when said country is losing a war and under the threat of continued hostilities. Seriously, unless Poland is going to declare war on Germany (and win), I don't see any way that they'd receive any reparations for whatever.   That Lech Kaczinsky wouldn't know that is a bit of a surprise. But then, what can you expect from a government that even seems to think it can seek the extradition of German satirists from Germany (something not even all those Anti-Danish mullahs ever came up with)?   Erika Steinbach is in the CDU, not the CSU, btw. And she is not involved with the Prussian Treuhand, just to make that clear.