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Germans of Sudetenland - where are they now?
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ataman View Drop Down
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Germans of Sudetenland - where are they now?
    Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:00
Originally posted by bg_turk

So in total 7.775 mln Germans "left" Poland during and after 1945? 
 
Yes, but only 2.275 mln were displaced by the Poles. The rest was displaced by Nazi Germany (Hitler ordered this) and voluntarily.
 
Originally posted by bg_turk

If it was against any other country I am sure it would have been termed a Genocide, but since it is against a people that lost the war, it is ignored and forgotten.
 
Can't you see a difference between a genocide and displacement?
BTW, after WWII 2.3mln the Poles were displaced from their homes in eastern Poland (now territories of Lithuania, Belorus, Ukraine). Nobody (even the Poles) don't call it a genocide.


Edited by ataman - 05-Jul-2006 at 17:06
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:13
Originally posted by bg_turk

If you are interested in Germans who lived on territory joined to Poland after WWII then:
- there were about 8 855 000 Germans in 1939
- about 4,5 mln left this territory in the last phase of WWII (they avoided red army)
- in 1945 over 1 mln Germans left this territory
The organized expulsion began in 1946. Between 1946 and 1949 Poland displaced 2.275mln Germans. Poland was obliged to this by the decision of USA, UK and USSR made in Poczdam in 1945.
 
So in total 7.775 mln Germans "left" Poland during and after 1945? If we are to add the 3 mln Germans from Sudetenland, this would mean that around 10,775 mln Germans were expelled from the surrounding territories and I do not even want to imagine what the mortality rate was during those expulsions.
 
This is a HUGE number and I am surprised nobody talks about it. If it was against any other country I am sure it would have been termed a Genocide, but since it is against a people that lost the war, it is ignored and forgotten.
Polish were also expelled from Ukraina and Belarus but only poor Germans scream how they were hurt. We don't demand any compensation from Ulraine or Belarous. It would be an idiotism. Polish genocide it is also forgotten and ignored so who cares about German.
It's not only that Germans lost the war it's also the scale of their crimes that makes impossible for Polish and Germans to live together in one land. And Your comparison with Basques and Spanish it's funny. Maybe You should have knew more about WWII to discuss such subject but Germans crimes are uncomparable to this between Spanish and Basques and other Your examples.
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:14
Originally posted by bg_turk

This is not really justification for expelling a people from their land. 
 
Go to governmets of USA, UK and Russia and tell them about it. I wonder what they will answer you.
As I have already written - this expelling was decided by 3 powers. Nobody asked neither Poles nor Czechs about their opinion. Nobody asked Poland if it prefered its old borders or if it wanted German territory.


Edited by ataman - 05-Jul-2006 at 22:57
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 19:00
Originally posted by ataman

The rest was displaced by Nazi Germany (Hitler ordered this) and voluntarily.
 
Could you please elaborate on this point. I am completely at a loss as to why Hitler would order the expulsion of his own people.
 
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 19:02
Originally posted by Majkes

It's not only that Germans lost the war it's also the scale of their crimes that makes impossible for Polish and Germans to live together in one land.
 
I know many Poles were sent to concentration camps during the Nazi invasion of Poland. Did the local Germans participate? And was there a history of animosity between the Germans and the Poles?
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 21:51
When Hitler entered to Poland local Germans were prepared and many were showing who should be shot or put to jail. Germans wanted to  kill all Polish with higher education degree.  Local Germans started to be very important. E.G in my grandparents village in Central Poland there was one German and He was informing German army who did what before the war , who didn't like him and things like that.
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 22:06
Originally posted by Majkes

When Hitler entered to Poland local Germans were prepared and many were showing who should be shot or put to jail. Germans wanted to  kill all Polish with higher education degree. 
 
 
Yes, that is apparently what they did in Czechoslovakia as well according to my friend.
 
Local Germans started to be very important. E.G in my grandparents village in Central Poland there was one German and He was informing German army who did what before the war , who didn't like him and things like that.
 
Do you remember what happened to that German after the defeat of the German army? It would be interesting for me to hear if you have any personal stories of the expulsion of the Germans. I know and hear a lot about the plight of the Poles during WWII, but I know very little about what the Germans had to endure after their defeat.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 23:41
Originally posted by Majkes

 
You are a lier. Discussion with You is pointless. You even admit You don't know if it is a truth.
 
 
Confused I wasnt stating facts hence the question marks at the end of my sentences.
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 23:45
Originally posted by bg_turk

 
Could you please elaborate on this point. I am completely at a loss as to why Hitler would order the expulsion of his own people.
 
To protect them from the Red Army. Thanks to this, in a very short time, milions Germans left their homes (it was in the middle of winter!).  


Edited by ataman - 05-Jul-2006 at 23:47
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 23:59
Originally posted by bg_turk

And was there a history of animosity between the Germans and the Poles?
 
My grandfather before WWII lived in Bydgoszcz (it is a city which belonged to Poland before WWII). Before WWII Bydgoszcz had mixed population - part of population was Polish, part was German. The Poles who lived in Bydgoszcz remember very well German civilians ('the 5th column') who shot to Polish army in September 1939. And they remember mass executions Polish civilians after German army took Bydgoszcz.


Edited by ataman - 06-Jul-2006 at 00:00
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 00:23
Originally posted by ataman

My grandfather before WWII lived in Bydgoszcz (it is a city which belonged to Poland before WWII). Before WWII Bydgoszcz had mixed population - part of population was Polish, part was German. The Poles who lived in Bydgoszcz remember very well German civilians ('the 5th column') who shot to Polish army in September 1939. And they remember mass executions Polish civilians after German army took Bydgoszcz.
 
Thanks for sharing your experience, ataman.
 
You have portrayted the Germans in the worst possible light and I do not blame you for that given what your family has gone through and the crimes comitted by Germans against the Poles. 
 
But still your post begs for more objectivity and we should not allow the previous wrongs against the Poles to distract us from the topic of this thread which is the concerned with the faith of the Germans. Calling the entire German population 'a 5th column', a term painfully familiar to me since it was used by the Bulgarians against my people and by countless majorities against their minorities, is something form which I believe you should abstain. 
 
You have told us about what Poles had to go through during the occupation, for which I thank you, but I would like to learn more about what happened to the Germans after the war. Do you have any memories of their expulsion, of how those that remained were treated by the Red Army? Did your family have any German friends, and how were your relationships affected as a result of the war?
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 01:01
Originally posted by bg_turk

Calling the entire German population 'a 5th column', a term painfully familiar to me since it was used by the Bulgarians against my people and by countless majorities against their minorities, is something form which I believe you should abstain. 
 
Bg_turk, you got me wrong. I haven't call entire German population 'a 5th column'. I have written about German civilians who shot to Polish soldiers. They were 'the 5th column'. I don't claim that every German civilian shot to Polish soldiers.
BTW of the 5th column. According to this pages
25% of Germans in pre WWII Poland were a members of Nazi organizations (like Jungdeutsche Partei, Deutsche Vereinigung, Deutscher Volksbund, Deutscher Volksverbarid).
 
 
Originally posted by bg_turk

You have told us about what Poles had to go through during the occupation, for which I thank you, but I would like to learn more about what happened to the Germans after the war.
 
My knowledge about it is limited. I can tell you what my other grandfather told me.
After WWII he settled in Wrocław (before WWII Wroclaw/Breslau was a German city). Part of German population didn't left Wrocław with German army. They lived among the Poles. My grandfather told me that the Poles couldn't leave their homes alone, because it was too dangerous. There were a lot of murders of the Poles in Wrocław. The Poles of course blamed Germans about it. After displacement of Germans these murders weren't so numerous.
 
Anyway, I have also visited a camp for Germans (these ones who were later displaced to Germany). I forgot the name of this one, but if you are interested in, I can check.
 
 
Originally posted by bg_turk

Do you have any memories of their expulsion, of how those that remained were treated by the Red Army?
 
I know about mass rapes made by Soviet soldiers. A lot of Polish and German women were raped by Soviets. I was born in a town, where was a hospital for Soviet soldiers. They weren't wounded. They were venereal patients.
 
Originally posted by bg_turk

Did your family have any German friends, and how were your relationships affected as a result of the war?
 
Do you ask about any German friends before WWII? I am not aware of any. But even if there were any, my grandfathers and grandmothers removed after WWII and lost contacts with their old neighbours / acquaintances.
 


Edited by ataman - 06-Jul-2006 at 01:55
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 02:32
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Majkes

When Hitler entered to Poland local Germans were prepared and many were showing who should be shot or put to jail. Germans wanted to  kill all Polish with higher education degree. 
 
 
Yes, that is apparently what they did in Czechoslovakia as well according to my friend.
 
Local Germans started to be very important. E.G in my grandparents village in Central Poland there was one German and He was informing German army who did what before the war , who didn't like him and things like that.
 
Do you remember what happened to that German after the defeat of the German army? It would be interesting for me to hear if you have any personal stories of the expulsion of the Germans. I know and hear a lot about the plight of the Poles during WWII, but I know very little about what the Germans had to endure after their defeat.
He escaped together with German army when Russians were coming. They would kill him for sure. Many Germans were escaping frm Red Army. You should understand thisWink.
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 02:47
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In my opinion there wasn't any other option after war but to expell Germans. It was for their safety. People are people and they will lok for revange so it wouldn't be save to Germans to stay in Germany. Also Poland was communist country so it would be hard time for Germans as it was for Polish. We have now peace with Germany and there are no serious problems which could lead to war. Who can say what would it be if there was big German minority in Poland. So in my opinion there was no other option after war. And You can't compare it with Turkish and Bulgarians. Did Turkish kill 6 mln Bulgarians citizens? And the question about expelling Germans can't be asked without question what Germans did to Polish because without that the answer would be that we should pay them compensations return their houses. So it doesn't make sense that the victim should pay compensations to one who comitted crime.
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jul-2006 at 02:48
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 16:48
It had little or nothing to do with the safety of the expelled Germans.  Politically, the Nazis used the presence of Germans in a number of other states to justify interference and action "on their behalf."  This was just another casus belli for German aggression.
 
In removing the German populations, the formerly victimized peoples of eastern Europe were attempting to insure that there would not be a future occasion for revanchism on the part of Germany "on their behalf."
 
My German speaking ancestors came to the US from Hungary, and I have seen old letters and postcards from relatives there in 1947-48 where it was indicated that their German names had been "Magyarized" after the war.  Some similar situations may have occurred in Poland or even Russia, but the safety of the Germans was not a big reason for their displacement.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 10-Jul-2006 at 16:49
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 14:05
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

It had little or nothing to do with the safety of the expelled Germans.  Politically, the Nazis used the presence of Germans in a number of other states to justify interference and action "on their behalf."  This was just another casus belli for German aggression.
 
In removing the German populations, the formerly victimized peoples of eastern Europe were attempting to insure that there would not be a future occasion for revanchism on the part of Germany "on their behalf."
 
My German speaking ancestors came to the US from Hungary, and I have seen old letters and postcards from relatives there in 1947-48 where it was indicated that their German names had been "Magyarized" after the war.  Some similar situations may have occurred in Poland or even Russia, but the safety of the Germans was not a big reason for their displacement.
 
 
I didn't mean that Communists has expelled Germans of course. Mybe it sounded like that. I meant that if they stayed what would have happen? I would predict mass killings from both sides but of course Polish or Czechs would have support of their goverments so we all know how would this is end up. Still in Poland there is quite large German minority. They even have 2 members of parlaiment. I don't know how that happend that they stayed in Poland.
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Posts: 1108 		  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 14:43
Originally posted by Majkes

I don't know how that happend that they stayed in Poland.
 
It is very simple. After WWII they claimed that they aren't Germans but that they are (for example) Silesians - meaning autchohtons. Do you remember Henryk Krl (now Kroll)? He is just an example.


Edited by ataman - 11-Jul-2006 at 14:44
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Posts: 1144 		  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 17:07
Originally posted by ataman

Originally posted by Majkes

I don't know how that happend that they stayed in Poland.
 
It is very simple. After WWII they claimed that they aren't Germans but that they are (for example) Silesians - meaning autchohtons. Do you remember Henryk Krl (now Kroll)? He is just an example.
 
What a liers! LOL How could they lie like that to our Communist authorities!?
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Posts: 352 		  Quote yan. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 07:28
wintersonnenwende is a neo-nazi or at leat a revisionist website, so don't take it too seriously.
 
 
In answer to the OP: A lot of them finally settled in Bavaria. That's why the CSU is rather hardline on German-Czech relations.
 
The numbers of deported and the wikipedia excerpt sound about right. The expulsions and violence started after the capitulation of the Wehrmacht, with probably quite obvious reasons (occupation of bohemia and moravia, treatment of czechs, or for the slovaks the suppression of the slovak uprising of 1944).
 
I've read that several 100.000 Czechs were deported from the Sudeten areas after 1938, so your friend is probably right.
 
Since most states decline remedies for personal losses in connection to WWII - for good reason, btw - there are few chances anyone from those areas will ever see a cent of compensation. Just like people who had their houses destroyed or relatives killed by German troops, or British bombs for that matter. That doesn't mean that noone tries to get money, of course.
 
I don't know what the chances are for Sudeten Germans to return to the czech republic, but I guess with the EU-membership of Czech there exists some kind of procedure to settle there.
 
 
 
I answer to some other posts: Germans in Czechoslovakia were certainly treated much better than Germans in South Tyrol (I think no status of German as an official language, no german schools, no german political parties etc, Mussolini definitely wanted them out, and in the end, Germany and Italy even agreed to move them to Poland and the Crimea). The Sudeten germans (or at least Henlein and his followers)  let themselves be used as Hitlers tool.
 
Germany never asked for compensation from anyone. Of course it would be a rather unintelligent move, too. That Poland mistakes a group of privateers like the Prussian Treuhand as a representation of the german public is a rather alarming sign, though. Maybe some people need to cool down a bit.
 
Wikipedia has an entry with estimations of losses among the German population in Eastern Europe at the end and after WWII which gives rather familar numbers. Keep in mind that these numbers include or may include evacuations from areas threatened by the Red Army at the end of WWII, forced expulsions at the beginning and after WWII, and deportations to labour camps in the USSR, and include an error range.
 
Sudeten refers to a group of mountain ranges in northern Bohemia and Moravia (that is, today's Czech Republic). The name Sudetendeutsche generally refers to ethnic Germans in the border areas of Bohemia and Moravia to Germany.
 
That article "Czechoslovakia takes Revenge" refers to events within Czechoslovakia. That the towns they mention sound german is because they were inhabitated by Germans and therefore also had German names (Aussig is, for example, the german name for Usti nad Labem, Troppau is the German name for Opava). That they distinguish between German and Austrian ethnicity seems a bit artificial. Maybe it's because Czechoslovakia had been part of the Austro-Hungarian empire before 1919. Anyway, the article didn't seem to contain any mention of events on Austrian (as of post-1919) soil.
 
it's not really correct that the evacuations from East Prussia etc. were all started on official order. At first, they were rather spontanous. The authorities wanted the army to fight harder and of course giving the impression they'd have to protect their women and children would be needed. Also, leaving parts of German territory would be bad for the morale in areas further within the Reich. Thus, they even forbade evacuations at first until it was almost too late (onset of winter etc.).
 
Back to the sudetes, I think the expulsions had little to do with orders of the Great Powers. As stated, the violence started right after May 9th, and I don't think the Czechs did receive any orders from the US, Soviet or British governments. I think Hungary was a different story, but then, Hungary had been treated as an ally by the Germans.


Edited by yan. - 12-Jul-2006 at 07:30
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