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Germans of Sudetenland - where are they now?

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Germans of Sudetenland - where are they now?
    Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 13:42
This topic came out from an argument with my Czech friend in the company of a few Balkan friends. The Czech blamed us the Balkanians of being crazy and that we performed many crimes against each other. Confused So I felt compelled to research on the history of his country, and I came accross the Germans of Sudetenland.

I knew very little about the events after WWII in Sudetenland, but apparently what occurred was of gigantic proportions, far bigger than the things we Balkanians have done against each other. According to wikipedia of the 3.2 million Germans in Sudetenland, 3 million were expelled.

Could you please verify this number and also give a brief outline of the events? Was the expulson of the Germans preceded by a similar expulsion of the Czechs as my friend argues? Also are the Germans affected by this act of ethnic cleansing seeking any remedy in European courts and what are the chances of them returning to their homeland? How are the remaining Germans treated in the Czech republic?

Wiki:


The number of expelled Germans totalled 3 million of the 3.2 million Germans of Sudetenland. These expulsions and forced resettlements were partly associated with excesses and even murders of Germans; there were 20,000 known deaths resulting from the expulsion. 62,000 people were reported missing by relatives but their deaths could not be verified. The property of practically all Sudeten Germans was confiscated by the newly formed state of Chechoslovakia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland



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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 13:50
Here is a description by the expelled of what they experienced:
http://www.wintersonnenwende.com/scriptorium/english/archives/whitebook/desg00.html


After the war ended in 1945, one of the most gruesome GENOCIDES took place that the history of mankind has ever seen: the expulsion and destruction of the Sudeten Germans. The German government has kept knowledge of this Holocaust and the huge files of documentary evidence a secret, in other words, this chapter of history is supposed to remain tucked away in the hindmost corners of the Federal German archives, there to gather dust and be forgotten. Its publication is not desired.

The poor souls who were tortured to a gruesome death can no longer tell their story - but the survivors can. Driven into a truncated Germany of rubble and ruins, where the people had enough to do to get their own lives back under control, the Sudeten Germans soon gave up trying to tell of their suffering; they buried the knowledge deep within themselves - but nevertheless their story has not been lost, as it was summarized (at least in part) in a book titled Dokumente zur Austreibung der Sudetendeutschen - Documents on the Expulsion of the Sudeten Germans - and it is our moral duty to those who were tormented to death, to tell the world about this death march of a people - now that the Internet has made such a publication possible.





Here are some interesting maps in relation to Sudetenland:









Edited by bg_turk - 03-Jul-2006 at 13:52
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 16:48

Sudeten Germans were the 5th column in Czech Republic. Nazi party was very active there. They were prepared for Hitlker entering to Bohemia and were very happy to see German army there. We must add here that Czechoslovakia was democratic country and Germans minority wasn't opressed there. Calling this the most gruesome GENOCIDES is at least serious exaggeration. In my opinion they got what they deserved. Who fights with sword dies from a sword.

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  Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 16:55
A third of  Czech Republic were Germans!
Germany payed compensation to all others, but the Czech didn't pay it to the Germans or excused for it!
Benes was not better than Hitler, both were criminal!
 
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  Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 16:57
The Czech discriminated Germans before Hitler came.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 17:21
Originally posted by Scheich

A third of  Czech Republic were Germans!
Germany payed compensation to all others, but the Czech didn't pay it to the Germans or excused for it!
Benes was not better than Hitler, both were criminal!
 
 
If Czechs would pay compensations to Germans it would be like when killer during commiting his crime cut his finger and then says to the victim which He tried to kill to pay him for his injury. I don't have to add that Germany are here a killer and Czech Republic a victim. Germans also strarted talking something that Poland should have paid compensation for expelled Germans but when we started to prepare for them check to pay for their crimes and only for destroying Warsaw and only for public property the check would be higher than 50 mld dollars they shut up. Poland of course will never agre to pay for expelled Germans and will never agree to force Czech Republic to pay compensations to Germans. 
Also it is not true that Germans paid compensations to all. Poland didn't recieve any compensations. Germany only paid to Polish who were in concentrational camps and were a forced labour and nothing more. We can still show our check for WWII and if Germany would have to pay it they would be bankrupt. Of course there would be many problems according to the international law.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 17:44
Originally posted by Majkes

Sudeten Germans were the 5th column in Czech Republic. Nazi party was very active there. They were prepared for Hitlker entering to Bohemia and were very happy to see German army there. We must add here that Czechoslovakia was democratic country and Germans minority wasn't opressed there. Calling this the most gruesome GENOCIDES is at least serious exaggeration. In my opinion they got what they deserved. Who fights with sword dies from a sword.



In any way how does this justify the expulsion of innocent children and women?

Certainly calling it the most gruesome GENOCIDE is an exaggeration for it in no way beats the Holocaust of 6 million Jews.

But still it is a humanitarian catastrophe no less, and I believe the death of 30,000 civilians and the expulsion of 3 million deserves to be called a German Genocide.

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  Quote Scheich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 18:09
Poland got most of Prussia.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 18:25
Originally posted by Scheich

A third of  Czech Republic were Germans!
Germany payed compensation to all others, but the Czech didn't pay it to the Germans or excused for it!
Benes was not better than Hitler, both were criminal!
 
 
It all depends on who winds up on the winning side.  Beside which, there was not a central European country that was capable of much, if any, compensation after the war.  Once the Czechoslovak state was under Soviet influence, and later control, the only "reparations" were going to the Soviet Union.
 
 
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 07:18
Let aside the Sudetenland. The legendary Prussia, the kingdom which created modern Germany, does no longer exist. I think after WWII some 8.000.000 Germans were expelled from the east (Silesia, Prussia, Sudetia)

Defeat allows no explanation
Victory needs none.
It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 12:00
Originally posted by xristar

I think after WWII some 8.000.000 Germans were expelled from the east (Silesia, Prussia, Sudetia)


These are enormous numbers. I never knew about it.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 14:18
Originally posted by Scheich

Poland got most of Prussia.
 
It wasn't compensation for war loses just a compensation for a land that we lost to Soviet Union which was by the way bigger than those we recieved. Nobody asked Poland about it of course.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 14:23
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Majkes

Sudeten Germans were the 5th column in Czech Republic. Nazi party was very active there. They were prepared for Hitlker entering to Bohemia and were very happy to see German army there. We must add here that Czechoslovakia was democratic country and Germans minority wasn't opressed there. Calling this the most gruesome GENOCIDES is at least serious exaggeration. In my opinion they got what they deserved. Who fights with sword dies from a sword.



In any way how does this justify the expulsion of innocent children and women?

Certainly calling it the most gruesome GENOCIDE is an exaggeration for it in no way beats the Holocaust of 6 million Jews.

But still it is a humanitarian catastrophe no less, and I believe the death of 30,000 civilians and the expulsion of 3 million deserves to be called a German Genocide.

 
If they stayed Germany would demand those teritories and another war would have been broken. It would be your justice?
Expell of Germans also can't be compared to what Germans did to Polish so I would say that it was very light penalty for the crimes.
30.000 Germans lost their lives during being expelled - compare it to 40.000 Polish which were shooted by Germans in one day in district Wola during Warsaw uprising 1944. Besides do You really think that Polish would welcome their neighbours warmly after war?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 01:33

Sudeten mean Germans living outside of Germany right????

Didnt the Poles before the war kill lots of Germans living in Poland, and the ones who got to Germany safely when returning to Poland were looking for some revenge???
 
Didnt a bunch of Czechs enter Austria after the war and slaughtered 10s of thousands???
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by machine - 05-Jul-2006 at 01:34
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  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 07:05
Originally posted by machine

Didnt the Poles before the war kill lots of Germans living in Poland, and the ones who got to Germany safely when returning to Poland were looking for some revenge???
 
Didnt a bunch of Czechs enter Austria after the war and slaughtered 10s of thousands???

No.
Prove that if you can. Give sources, please.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 08:56

CZECHOSLOVAKIA TAKES REVENGE

In retaliation for the 213,000 of its citizens murdered during the Nazi occupation, the Czechs lost no time in squaring the account. Eduard Benes returned from exile in London and in Prague set up a new government. Thousands of Sudeten Germans were rounded up and interned in camps without proper sanitation facilities. Soon, the camps were swarming with vermin. Hunger and disease were on a par with Belsen. In July, 1945, the Czech militia massacred some 1,000 Germans in a village near Aussig. In the town of Saaz, thousands of German women were herded into huge barracks. As night fell, hundreds of Czech militia entered the barracks and picked out their victims, mostly young women. For two whole weeks, night after night, this mass rape continued. Without decent food and medicines, babies were dying at a rate of up to fifteen per day. Eventually, when the survivors were transported to Germany, they left behind around 2,000 of their dead. In Troppau, in Silesia, 4,200 German women and children were expelled back to Germany, a journey by rail, in unheated freight cars, that lasted eighteen days. When the train arrived in Berlin, only 1,350 were still alive. Many of these Germans were totally innocent and in no way sympathetic to Hitler's regime. It is estimated that about 200,000 Germans, Austrians and Hungarians were murdered during the Czech reprisals.

 
I dont know the authenticity of the site, so i dont know if its exactly true or not.


Edited by machine - 05-Jul-2006 at 08:59
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 14:03
Originally posted by machine

Sudeten mean Germans living outside of Germany right????

Didnt the Poles before the war kill lots of Germans living in Poland, and the ones who got to Germany safely when returning to Poland were looking for some revenge???
 
Didnt a bunch of Czechs enter Austria after the war and slaughtered 10s of thousands???
 
You are a lier. Discussion with You is pointless. You even admit You don't know if it is a truth.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 16:33
If you are interested in Germans who lived on territory joined to Poland after WWII then:
- there were about 8 855 000 Germans in 1939
- about 4,5 mln left this territory in the last phase of WWII (they avoided red army)
- in 1945 over 1 mln Germans left this territory
The organized expulsion began in 1946. Between 1946 and 1949 Poland displaced 2.275mln Germans. Poland was obliged to this by the decision of USA, UK and USSR made in Poczdam in 1945.
 
Teritorial changes:
Poland before WWII had 389 700 km sq. Thanks to decisions made in Jałta and Poczdam by USA, UK and USSR, Poland lost 179 300 km sq its eastern territory and gained 102 700 km sq from Germany. Finally, Poland after WWII has 312 000 km sq. It means that thanks to WWII and thanks to decisions of 3 powers (BTW they were our allies :() poland lost 20% of its territory.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 16:37
If they stayed Germany would demand those teritories and another war would have been broken. It would be your justice?
 
This is not really justification for expelling a people from their land. Should Spain expell Basques because they could possibly demand territories, Turkey the Kurds, or Bulgaria us? There is no justification for expelling an entire population from their homeland.
 
Regarding the rest of your post. Essentially you are justifiying wrongs against Germans with wrongs against the Poles and Czechs. Well, in my book two wrongs do not make a right.


Edited by bg_turk - 05-Jul-2006 at 16:43
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 16:42
If you are interested in Germans who lived on territory joined to Poland after WWII then:
- there were about 8 855 000 Germans in 1939
- about 4,5 mln left this territory in the last phase of WWII (they avoided red army)
- in 1945 over 1 mln Germans left this territory
The organized expulsion began in 1946. Between 1946 and 1949 Poland displaced 2.275mln Germans. Poland was obliged to this by the decision of USA, UK and USSR made in Poczdam in 1945.
 
So in total 7.775 mln Germans "left" Poland during and after 1945? If we are to add the 3 mln Germans from Sudetenland, this would mean that around 10,775 mln Germans were expelled from the surrounding territories and I do not even want to imagine what the mortality rate was during those expulsions.
 
This is a HUGE number and I am surprised nobody talks about it. If it was against any other country I am sure it would have been termed a Genocide, but since it is against a people that lost the war, it is ignored and forgotten.


Edited by bg_turk - 05-Jul-2006 at 16:44
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