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Decebal
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Topic: Hollywood historical movies Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 14:31 |
The common perception out there is that Hollywood historical movies are grossly inaccurate. To a great extent, I shared that perception. But recently I started to wonder: our knowledge of history is actually fairly incomplete. For a given period in history, outside the last 2 centuries at least, history is reconstitued from little bits and pieces. Historical documents (which usually are vague, biased, or only concentrate on rulers and their actions), archeology (which can only offer so much evidence, and which is often open to interpretation), linguistics (which can only offer some vagues clues), and common sense are what is used by historians to piece together history. In man ways, historians and archeologists are a kind of Sherlock Holmes/ Hercule Poirot, putting together clues that are hundreds or thousands of years old, and coming up with a theory that fits them.
Herein lies the connection with Hollywood: there can be several historical theories that fit in well with the known clues. However, common people and amateur historians such as most of ourselves here on AE, only hear one of these theories and accept it as fact. Oftentimes, it is only those theories that correspond to national biases that are presented to the people of a country. Those people then react with disbelief and even anger whenever they hear a different theory about the same events. If one examines most of Hollywood movies that had a certain budget at least, at first we may be tempted to think that they are grossly inaccurate, whereas they may only present a theory of history which we have not been previously exposed to.
Let's look at some examples: in Alexander, the focus is on Babylon, rather than Persepolis, which led Iranians to complain that Babylon was unfairly characterised as the capital, and that the destruction of Persepolis was unfairly omitted. But perhaps we can view Babylon as the true cultural and economic capital of the empire (rather like New York in the modern US), whereas Persepolis was only important for its status as a capital (Washington to follow the same comparison). How do we really know that psychologically, the occupation of Babylon was not more resonant in its time than the destruction of Persepolis? Also, the director seems to have concentrated on Alexander's homosexual relations, rather than some of the historical events. But should we really criticize that approach, that simply shows a different side (more human) of the story than the one we are used to reading from books?
In Braveheart, the English are portrayed as brutal and ruthless, which seems unfair. But to the Scottish, they were just that. Kingdom of Heaven has been criticized by the christians for being too sympathetic to muslims and by muslims for being biased in the favor of christians. Perhaps that is simply the sign that the movie presents a third theory, equally valid, which is different from both commonly held views.
There is another point to be made, and that is poetic license. History buffs think that the events that they view as important should be in a movie, and are outraged when they are not. But does it really matter that Alexander did not show the battle of Issus or the occupation of Egypt, or that Kingdom of Heaven concentrated on the siege of Jerusalem rather than the battle of Hattin? The directors of these two movies felt that they had to concentrate on certain aspects of history in order to convey whatever they felt that the movie should present. It is their right as artists, in the same way that a painter chooses to paint a person from one angle or another.
I suppose the key question in my rambling is: how can we possibly criticize Hollywood for its supposedly inaccurate and biased depiction of historical events, when we draw our knowledge of those events from inaccurate, incomplete and biased sources to begin with? How can we criticize them for concentrating on certain events rather than others, when the relative importance of those events is relative to the historical perspective?
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What is history but a fable agreed upon?
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Even if you are a minority of one, the truth is the truth.- Mohandas Gandhi
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Majkes
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Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 16:17 |
All Holywods movies based on history are at least inacurate. Some are just one big lie in oposition to the truth e.g "Enigma" were they claim that British broke first Enigma codes not Polish and the only Pole in the movie is a traitor .
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edgewaters
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Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 18:14 |
Originally posted by Majkes
All Holywods movies based onhistory are at leastinacurate. Some are just one big lie in oposition to the truth e.g "Enigma" were they claim that British broke first Enigma codes not Polish and the only Pole in the movie is a traitor[IMG]height=17 alt=Angry src="http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>. |
Well, it's not really Hollywood's fault in that particular case - the same falsehood is taught in historical textbooks. You can't expect Hollywood to succeed where professional historians have failed.
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Majkes
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Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 18:19 |
Originally posted by edgewaters
Originally posted by Majkes
All Holywods movies based on history are at least inacurate. Some are just one big lie in oposition to the truth e.g "Enigma" were they claim that British broke first Enigma codes not Polish and the only Pole in the movie is a traitor[IMG]height=17 alt=Angry src="http://www.allempires.com/forum/smileys/smiley7.gif" width=17 align=absMiddle>. |
Well, it's not really Hollywood's fault in that particular case - the same falsehood is taught in historical textbooks. You can't expect Hollywood to succeed where professional historians have failed. |
I know that Americans and English very easily claim others successes to be theirs increasing their role and decreasing role of the others. Hollywood is American so we can't accept from them nothing more than fairytales about American heroes. I must say that polish movies ( except communist propagand ) are very diffrent from Hollywood movies in this case.
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Dampier
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Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 19:00 |
Originally posted by Majkes
All Holywods movies based on history are at least inacurate. Some are just one big lie in oposition to the truth e.g "Enigma" were they claim that British broke first Enigma codes not Polish and the only Pole in the movie is a traitor. |
Surely you'd like to mention U571 or All the Queens Men where it is the Americans and not either of us. Isnt Enigma about Bletchley Park though? Not that actual Polish capturing of the machine.
@Braveheart, no its still a piece of crap as is the Patriot and similar stuff. If I make a movie about a sterotype then thats not history.
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Majkes
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Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 19:27 |
Originally posted by Dampier
Originally posted by Majkes
All Holywods movies based on history are at least inacurate. Some are just one big lie in oposition to the truth e.g "Enigma" were they claim that British broke first Enigma codes not Polish and the only Pole in the movie is a traitor. |
Surely you'd like to mention U571 or All the Queens Men where it is the Americans and not either of us. Isnt Enigma about Bletchley Park though? Not that actual Polish capturing of the machine.
@Braveheart, no its still a piece of crap as is the Patriot and similar stuff. If I make a movie about a sterotype then thats not history. |
Polish scientist broke Enigma code first before second World War when British had no idea how it is working.
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Achilles
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Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 20:06 |
what is your source on that
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Emperor Barbarossa
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Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 20:35 |
Originally posted by Dampier
@Braveheart, no its still a piece of crap as is the Patriot and similar stuff. If I make a movie about a sterotype then thats not history. |
Yes, I agree. Braveheart was just anti-English propaganda, and nothing more. It is just sad that many Americans think it is truth. The Scots were just as bad as the English in the Middle Ages.
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flyingzone
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Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 21:11 |
To answer Decebal's original question, no, I don't think the bias that we amateur historians has is any different from that forms the basis of any Hollywood historical movies. There is, however, one crucial difference. None of us has either the influence or the audience of those stupid Hollywood historical movies. Just take another Mel Gibson movie "The Passion of the Christ" as an example. Many who have seen this movie, most of whom are naive and/or ignorant, would believe that everything they saw was real because the film has such an aura of authenticity to it, with all the actors speaking an "unknown" language, a suspiciously goodlooking actor playing Jesus, and all the fake "real" blood. Of course Gibson's being a millionaire Hollywood star AND a devout Catholic must have also helped. I suspect a lot of people who have seen this movie wouldn't even ask themselves, "Is that movie a depiction of history or is that just a movie? If it's indeed the former, what are its sources and how have the discrepancies among the sources been treated or masked?"
Let's face it, the ignorance of the mass is not just a myth.
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Majkes
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 04:41 |
Originally posted by Achilles
what is your source on that |
e.g. British prime minister who admitted this, Your prince Andrew ( if I'm correct in his name ) who bring Enigma machine to Poland and thanked us for breaking Enigma codes.
You can read here:
Unfortunately British were falsificating Enigma's history through the whole Cold War claiming all the successes as their own. Lately our goverment demanded recognition of the truth about Enigma and British authorities were admitting Polish role few times. There is even common Polish-British commision searching documents in British archieves not only about Enigma but also about whole Polish inteligence part in Allies successes. E.g. it appeared that Polish gave to England about 60% informations that Engkish Intelligence had from the whole World cause we had spies organizations all over the World in Maghreb, Afganistan, Argentina, France, Denmark and many others countries.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 04:57 |
Originally posted by Majkes
All Holywods movies based on history are at least inacurate. Some are just one big lie in oposition to the truth e.g "Enigma" were they claim that British broke first Enigma codes not Polish and the only Pole in the movie is a traitor. |
The British were the first to break the Enigma codes. They had invaluable assistance from the Polish resistance, which provided them with a sample machine.
Of course it is totally wrong to depict the only Pole as a traitor. Apart from anything else, Polish pilots played an important part in the Battle of Britain; sadly most of them couldn't go home again after the war because of the Soviet occupation.
(I didn't see the movie.)
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Majkes
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 05:07 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Majkes
All Holywods movies based on history are at least inacurate. Some are just one big lie in oposition to the truth e.g "Enigma" were they claim that British broke first Enigma codes not Polish and the only Pole in the movie is a traitor. |
The British were the first to break the Enigma codes. They had invaluable assistance from the Polish resistance, which provided them with a sample machine.
Of course it is totally wrong to depict the only Pole as a traitor. Apart from anything else, Polish pilots played an important part in the Battle of Britain; sadly most of them couldn't go home again after the war because of the Soviet occupation.
(I didn't see the movie.)
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No, they weren't first to break enigma code. Did You read my previous post?? It was 3 Polish matematics who broke fiest Enigma code. I see that lies are standing strong.
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Majkes
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 05:09 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
[QUOTE=Majkes]
The British were the first to break the Enigma codes. They had invaluable assistance from the Polish resistance, which provided them with a sample machine.
(I didn't see the movie.)
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This is false. Polish resistance had nothing to do with Enigma.
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Guests
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 06:00 |
Hollywood= $$$MONEY$$$
These huge battle scenes cost money and thats where they become stingy. Kingdom of Heaven needed more battle scenes, Alexander could have done without the homoerotica and focused more on the battles.
Most people will go and see movies and hire them just because of the hype. How many movies looked promising and turned out to be sh*t, Hollywood still made their millions and thats all they care about.
Not how accurate their portrayal of the Movie is.
Who said the Patriot is crap Its a wicked movie
Edited by machine - 01-Jul-2006 at 06:03
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 07:08 |
"Of course Gibson's being a millionaire Hollywood star AND a devout Catholic must have also helped."
Actually, the term 'rabid' springs to mind here....
Decebal, I completely disagree with you. History, for much periods, is not as vague as you seem to think. There is a lot we do know for a fact. Of course there are things we dont know for sure, and are open to discussion. But my problem with hollywood movies is that they twist the facts as well as the debate on history. When a movie like "the man in the Iron Mask" at the end claims that 'Louis XIV led his people to peace and prosperity', this is just not true, considering that louis was at war for all but ten years of his reign, these ten being before he had come of age, and considering that people were starving on a regualr base in his reign.
I have no problem with little changes to make a movie just a bit more interesting, but some things are just wrong. And as already said above, the masses watching these movies wont know the difference between reality and the movies.
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Majkes
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 07:14 |
Originally posted by machine
Hollywood= $$$MONEY$$$
These huge battle scenes cost money and thats where they become stingy. Kingdom of Heaven needed more battle scenes, Alexander could have done without the homoerotica and focused more on the battles.
Most people will go and see movies and hire them just because of the hype. How many movies looked promising and turned out to be sh*t, Hollywood still made their millions and thats all they care about.
Not how accurate their portrayal of the Movie is.
Who said the Patriot is crap Its a wicked movie
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Alexander was at first really boring. This was the worts historical movie I've ever seen. They could say tah it is a movie about gays I wouldn't spend my money on that crap. It was battle, feast, battle feast and again again. It seemed that film director was absent during making this movie. And battle scenes were also crap. Collin Farell was hopeless. This movie was an insult to Greeks and Greek history. Hard to belive that it was Oliver Stone movie. I was so bored that I still remember this long hours I spent in cinema.
Mel Gibson movies are always exaggerated and always one sided. Enemies of Gibson's hero are always devils but I admit they are good to watch. I prefer good movie with some historical lacks than historicaly accurate but bad made.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 07:23 |
"I prefer good movie with some historical lacks than historicaly accurate but bad made."
This I second. Gladiator was a good movie, even though historically very incorrect.
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 07:42 |
Thoughtful question.
I believe that we need to see movies for what they are, works of art. Not documentries. Macbeth is one of the greatest plays ever, yet it is about as historically accurate as the Loch Ness monster. Yet I have never heard it be decried as being "inaccurate", which it most certainly is.
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Gundamor
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 11:12 |
Originally posted by Majkes
Originally posted by gcle2003
[QUOTE=Majkes]
The British were the first to break the Enigma codes. They had invaluable assistance from the Polish resistance, which provided them with a sample machine.
(I didn't see the movie.)
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This isfalse. Polish resistance had nothing to do with Enigma. |
Actually the polish didnt have the code broke after 1938. They had the earlier version broke. The germans changed the code. And the polish resistance did help the british by giving them all there research which the British,with alot of other foreign scientists, used to help break(maybe not fully) the newer one at Bletchley Park. The movie didnt even have Alan Turing whose machines were largely responsible for breaking the german naval code in the battle against the U-boats.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 11:18 |
On that enigma machine... was there not another movie about it, something like u-(number) which claimed the americans got it first? Those arrogant bastards... The enigma was already cracked before they even could be bothered to join the war!
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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