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Majkes
Chieftain
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Topic: Ottomans-French alliance Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 14:28 |
Can You name other important alliance during XVIth, XVIIth Centuries and its reasons? We can also discuss French Ottomans alliance but it was of course mainly based on anti Habsburgs feelings. We can also discuss which in You opinions alliances would be god for You countries and what do You think about decisions of Your kings to establish one alliance and not the other.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 16:09 |
In the usual mode of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend," France and also the Dutch made overtures to the Ottomans to counter Habsburg power in central and northwest Europe. Of course many of their alliances were temporary (Netherlands & France against Spain; France and England against Spain; Protestants and Turks against Spain...poor Spain)
One extremely important alliance was France and Sweden against the Austrian Habsburgs. This alliance, of course, was a convenience for France which used the Swedish led armies of Germans to distract the Habsburgs (Austria and Spain) from France's attempts to cut the Spanish Road to Luxembourg, and to increase French influence in northern Italy, further damaging Habsburg influence east of French territory.
That alliance lasted well into the 17th century, and was still strong in the 1680s.
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Byzantine Emperor
Arch Duke
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 16:22 |
Here is a reference to an interesting article that discusses the shifting alliances in Europe that involved the Ottomans. It focuses on the practice (which the Byzantines also used) of holding the brother of a would-be heir to the Sultanic throne as a diplomatic bargaining tool.
Halil Inalcik, "A Case Study in Renaissance Diplomacy: The Agreement Between Innocent VIII and Bayezid II on Djem Sultan." Journal of Turkish Studies 3 (1979): 209-230.
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mamikon
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 17:11 |
Napoleon also allied himself with the Ottomans, I think...
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Evrenosgazi
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 05:50 |
Habsburg -Safavid alliance against ottomans, hungary-Karamanoglu alliance against ottomans, venetian-akkoyunlu alliance against ottomans. All this 3 states are turkic and muslim but they were the allies of the europeansI think we can say poor ottomans too.Because in a large geography they struggled in two sides(app2500-3000km)
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Young Tatar
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Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 14:23 |
Napeleon is imperialist,colonist emperor of France. He says:"Money, money, money." I hate all imperialists.
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"Independence and Freedom are my character."
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
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Crimean Tatar Independence Movement
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erkut
General
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Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 15:32 |
Originally posted by mamikon
Napoleon also allied himself with the Ottomans, I think... |
No Napoleon fight against Turks in Egypt.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 16:10 |
Nothing to do with Turkey, but the longest-lasting alliance of all has been England and Portugal.
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mamikon
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Posted: 17-Apr-2007 at 16:43 |
Napeleon is imperialist,colonist emperor of France. He says:"Money, money, money." I hate all imperialists.
Yet his picture is on your avatar?
No Napoleon fight against Turks in Egypt.
Wasn't Egypt already a semi-independent state
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erkut
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Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 06:00 |
Originally posted by mamikon
Wasn't Egypt already a semi-independent state
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No. Ottomans sent Kavalali Mehmet Ali Pasha to Egypt because of French invasion. But after he become powerfull in Egypt, he fight against Ottomans, so he made Egypt a semi-independent state.
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Young Tatar
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Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 09:36 |
Yet his picture is on your avatar?
He is Mengli Giray Khan.He isn't colonist.Because, he is Muslim and he is Turk.
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"Independence and Freedom are my character."
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk
-----------------------------
Crimean Tatar Independence Movement
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TheDiplomat
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Retired AE Moderator
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Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 09:43 |
The traditional Ottoman-French friendship started with Suleiman The Magnificent when he gave the French priveledges for enetering into Ottoman market, and ended when Napoleon invaded Egypt-then Ottoman province.
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 13:27 |
Originally posted by Young Tatar
Yet his picture is on your avatar?
He is Mengli Giray Khan.He isn't colonist.Because, he is Muslim and he is Turk.
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And he also waged war against his neighbours just as Napoleon, overthrowing the last khan of the Golden Horde. How is one imperialist better than another?
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Anyway, the French weren't the only ones with good relations with the Turks. Sweden had an alliance with the sultan as well, because of the common Russian enemy. Realpolitik all the way.
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erkut
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Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 17:22 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
[QUOTE=Young Tatar]
Anyway, the French weren't the only ones with good relations with the Turks. Sweden had an alliance with the sultan as well, because of the common Russian enemy. Realpolitik all the way. |
Yeap Svedish king XIICharles was our guest forawhile
And there are two Turkish frigate in Svedish navy:
During the Soujourn of King Charles XII in Turkey from 1709 to 1714, he gave the Turkish names Jarramas and Illerim to two frigates, which were then building in Sweden. These names have since been perpetuated in the Swedish Navy, in the case of the former to the present day. According to official reports these two words were taken to mean thunder and lightning respectively but this is only true regard the latter. There is no single Turkish word meaning, Thunder, whilst Jarramas is a colloquial term much in use and meaning worthless, No good. It is just possible that the word was originally misspelt for Jarranmac, meaning zealous.
Edited by erkut - 18-Apr-2007 at 19:13
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Leonardo
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Posted: 19-Apr-2007 at 14:21 |
Originally posted by Styrbiorn
Originally posted by Young Tatar
Yet his picture is on your avatar?
He is Mengli Giray Khan.He isn't colonist.Because, he is Muslim and he is Turk.
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And he also waged war against his neighbours just as Napoleon, overthrowing the last khan of the Golden Horde. How is one imperialist better than another?
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Anyway, the French weren't the only ones with good relations with the Turks. Sweden had an alliance with the sultan as well, because of the common Russian enemy. Realpolitik all the way. |
The Venetians too had ambiguous politics towards the Ottomans alternating appeacement and (military) containment.
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kurt
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Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 01:29 |
there are no eternal allies or enemies, only eternal interests.
i think it was churchill who said that one, egomaniac that he was.
look at poland in turkey. the polish handed the ottoman empire their greatest and most severe defeat ever at the siege of vienna in 1683. yet now turkey and poland are allies. why? because they both hate russians.
although i think its important to realise that turks are becoming allies of the russians right now, or at least friendly, and that the ottoman empire refused to recognise the partitioning of poland by russia and austria in the 18th century. i bet those poles regretted saving the austrians from the ottomans after that happened.
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Mortaza
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Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 02:51 |
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 03:08 |
Originally posted by kurt
look at poland in turkey. the polish handed the ottoman empire their greatest and most severe defeat ever at the siege of vienna in 1683. yet now turkey and poland are allies. why? because they both hate russians.
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It is true both Poland and Turkey are very good buddies! But I would object to the idea that it is because anti-Russian feelings... There is no anti-Russian feeling anymore in Turkey... Actually according to a Moscow-based statistics, Turkish guys rank the heightest when Russian women marry foreigners More than 2 million Russians visit Turkey for holiday, and Turks pay the return. I was also in Moscow
The Ottoman state never recognized the partitation of Poland like a chesee, and in the diplomatic court of The Sultan, a chair was always left free for the envoy of Lehistan ( how Ottomans call Poland).
We Turks tend to return the sympathy that foreigners show towards us.. I think that is the reason why we have warm feelings towards Poland. That is also the reason why we like Russia now as well.
I met a lot of Polish and Russian people, and all of them were my party dudes
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ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!
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DayI
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Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 08:01 |
Originally posted by TheDiplomat
Originally posted by kurt
look at poland in turkey. the polish handed the ottoman empire their greatest and most severe defeat ever at the siege of vienna in 1683. yet now turkey and poland are allies. why? because they both hate russians.
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It is true both Poland and Turkey are very good buddies! But I would object to the idea that it is because anti-Russian feelings... There is no anti-Russian feeling anymore in Turkey... Actually according to a Moscow-based statistics, Turkish guys rank the heightest when Russian women marry foreigners More than 2 million Russians visit Turkey for holiday, and Turks pay the return. I was also in Moscow
The Ottoman state never recognized the partitation of Poland like a chesee, and in the diplomatic court of The Sultan, a chair was always left free for the envoy of Lehistan ( how Ottomans call Poland).
We Turks tend to return the sympathy that foreigners show towards us.. I think that is the reason why we have warm feelings towards Poland. That is also the reason why we like Russia now as well.
I met a lot of Polish and Russian people, and all of them were my party dudes
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Dont you think that we Turks act too "emotional" on our international interests or politics? Like Poland last year passed the famous armenian law, our newspapers where yelling like "look to our "friends" who betrayed us". Ok what Poland did may be negative for us but positive to them ($$) because it is their own interests. Turkey could counter it with something, getting closer to Russia (i think it is a must now) or something else (brokraside care tkenmez :D ) I think Turkey should quickly change this way of politics, trusting someones words, getting emotional etc...
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Styrbiorn
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Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 15:57 |
Originally posted by erkut
During the Soujourn of King Charles XII in Turkey from 1709 to 1714, he gave the Turkish names Jarramas and Illerim to two frigates, which were then building in Sweden. These names have since been perpetuated in the Swedish Navy, in the case of the former to the present day. According to official reports these two words were taken to mean thunder and lightning respectively but this is only true regard the latter. There is no single Turkish word meaning, Thunder, whilst Jarramas is a colloquial term much in use and meaning worthless, No good. It is just possible that the word was originally misspelt for Jarranmac, meaning zealous.
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Yep, there's still a ship named Jarramas, fourth of its name. It's a small school ship. Never knew the names were misinformed though (I do believe it was Yaramaz in Turkish).
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