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Knight
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Posts: 63 		  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Aryan Indians
    Posted: 07-Apr-2007 at 16:35

Howcome some Punjabi's in Pakistan have Sikh last names but their Muslim?

Is it true that the Punjabi's who were Sikh... migrated to India, while those who converted to Islam stayed in Punjab, Pakistan?
A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.

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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2007 at 17:41
Pakistan does have its own Sikh population you know.
 
 
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Posts: 59 		  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2007 at 18:44
Originally posted by northpakistani

Howcome some Punjabi's in Pakistan have Sikh last names but their Muslim?  Is it true that the Punjabi's who were Sikh... migrated to India, while those who converted to Islam stayed in Punjab, Pakistan?
 
Sikhism has followers from almost every tribe/caste of Punjab and so does Islam.  The Jatts in particular are 70% Sikhs and I almost all Jatts of Pakistan are muslim. 
 
I dont think the partition had much impact on the racial identity of punjabis; the jatts were muslim/sikh before and after partition.  I can say w/o a doubt that the tribes of Punjab especially the Jatts/Kamboj/Gujjars/Labanas still retain their racial identity on both sides of the border. 
 
 
TeldeInduz I doubt there are many Sikhs left in Pakistan maybe less than 1% or so families I suppose?  Afghanistan on the other hand had a bigger population and the exodus of Afghan Sikhs is quite prominent in the United Kingdom and United States. 
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2007 at 19:17

1% Sikhs in Pakistan is about the same size as in India (I think India has 2% Sikhs or so in its population. Sikhs always have been a small minority in the subcontinent without any clear figures.

 
 
 
 
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Posts: 63 		  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2007 at 19:52
True, Sikhs are quite a minority. I reckon there are a few Hindu's in Pakistan's Punjab area as well, who also carry Jatt names. I never saw any Sikh Afghans, are you sure they are true natives of Afghanistan? 
 
Was their leader Guru Nanak born in Afghanistan? or Pakistan?


Edited by northpakistani - 07-Apr-2007 at 20:03
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Posts: 59 		  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2007 at 20:17
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

1% Sikhs in Pakistan is about the same size as in India (I think India has 2% Sikhs or so in its population. Sikhs always have been a small minority in the subcontinent without any clear figures.
 
PAKISTAN
 
The 1941 census recorded the population of Muslims in Punjab as a whole at 57% whereas the Sikhs and Hindus made up 43% of which 11% was Sikh.  According to the 1941 census the Hindus and Sikhs made up 18.4% of the total population of West Pakistan (Present day Pakistan).  Some 2 million refugees were left stranded in Pakistan during partition and the Sikhs who had fled from Pakistan and had lost farms were assigned the generally smaller properties left by the Muslim Punjabis on the Indian side.
 
In the 1970s a few thousand Sikhs were to be found in the Punjab and the Frontier, including some in the Tribal belt.
 
AFGHANISTAN
 
In 2000 the Hindu population was estimated to be 79,521; the number of Sikhs was approximately 4,545.  Sikhs had been present in Afghanistan since the 1600's and their numbers grew during the 1700's.
 
 
REFERENCES
 
Culture and Customs of Pakistan
Iftikhar Haider Malik (p. 27)
 
Culture and Customs of Afghanistan
Hafizullah Emadi (p.62)
 
Geografia
Pakistan Institute of Geography (p. 79)
 
Pattern of Asia
John E. Brush (p.641)
 
Encyclopedia of Canada's People
Paul R. Magocsi (p.1148)


Edited by Rajputana - 08-Apr-2007 at 22:58
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Posts: 117 		  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2007 at 20:29

who do jatts relate too, i heard the white huns is it true? i also remember that there were jatts in kashmir too mostly settled around jammu. infact my dads side claims to be half jatt.
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Posts: 59 		  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2007 at 22:56
Originally posted by Kashmiri

who do jatts relate too, i heard the white huns is it true? i also remember that there were jatts in kashmir too mostly settled around jammu. infact my dads side claims to be half jatt.
 
Whats your Dad's half jatt surname  Kashmiri?  Many historians and archaeologists are of the opinion that the Jatts/Jutts relate to the Getae.
 
Ruling Races of Prehistoric Times in India
James Francis (p. 484)


Edited by Rajputana - 07-Apr-2007 at 22:57
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Posts: 63 		  Quote northpakistani Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2007 at 10:44
"Jatts of India and Pakistan who are descendants of Indo-Scythian tribes."
 
That's  a quote directly from wikipedia. Basically they were warriors from S. Siberia, who over the centuries became mixed with persians, greeks, indians, afghans..etc. Their found all over S. Asia as a result.
 
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2007 at 14:00
Here we go..all I can say is if you use wikipedia as a source on politics or on history, you need to find more solid references.
 
 
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2007 at 14:03
Originally posted by Rajputana

Originally posted by TeldeInduz

1% Sikhs in Pakistan is about the same size as in India (I think India has 2% Sikhs or so in its population. Sikhs always have been a small minority in the subcontinent without any clear figures.
 
PAKISTAN
 
The 1941 census recorded the population of Muslims in Punjab as a whole at 57% whereas the Sikhs and Hindus made up 43% of which 11% was Sikh.  According to the 1941 census the Sikhs made up 18.4% of the total population of West Pakistan (Present day Pakistan).  Some 2 million refugees were left stranded in Pakistan during partition and the Sikhs who had fled from Pakistan and had lost farms were assigned the generally smaller properties left by the Muslim Punjabis on the Indian side.
 
In the 1970s a few thousand Sikhs were to be found in the Punjab and the Frontier, including some in the Tribal belt.
 
AFGHANISTAN
 
In 2000 the Hindu population was estimated to be 79,521; the number of Sikhs was approximately 4,545.  Sikhs had been present in Afghanistan since the 1600's and their numbers grew during the 1700's.
 
 
REFERENCES
 
Culture and Customs of Pakistan
Iftikhar Haider Malik (p. 27)
 
Culture and Customs of Afghanistan
Hafizullah Emadi (p.62)
 
Geografia
Pakistan Institute of Geography (p. 79)
 
Pattern of Asia
John E. Brush (p.641)
 
Encyclopedia of Canada's People
Paul R. Magocsi (p.1148)
 
18.5% Sikhs seems a bit high but is probably true. Most of them obviously had emigrated to India at Partition.
 
 
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posts: 59 		  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Apr-2007 at 22:57
According to this map out of the total population of Sikhs in the world, 30% - 35% were residing in the West Pakistan area not to include NWFP and Sindh where there was a considerably smaller hindu-sikh minority. 
 
In the partition, 40 per cent of the Sikh community was displaced and it suffered a loss of 70 per cent of its land. - J.Pettigrew (Study of the Political System of the Sikh Jats; p.88)
 
Baluchistan's hindu-sikhs numbered around 51,000 in the 1941 Pakistan census.  - Henry T. Bessee (Church History; p.361)
 
Sindh according to the 1881 census had a total sikh population of 126,976 - Claude Markovits (Traders of Sind from Bukhara to Panama; p.48)
 
 
 
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 08:49

Where did you get 30-35% of Sikhs were residing in West Pakistan from that map? It looks more like 5%-10% Sikh populations were residing there in 1900.

Lahore is the only place in Pakistan that looks to have 20%-50% Sikhs, and this would of course be of much greater number than anywhere else in Pakistan because the number of people in Lahore then was high (compared the the other area).
 
I suspect a lot of the displaced people were from Punjab, but they got all the land and houses vacated by Indian Muslims in Delhi anyway.
 
Also why does your map show 5%-10% Sikh populations in Nepal, China, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan?


Edited by TeldeInduz - 09-Apr-2007 at 09:23
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Posts: 59 		  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 09:52
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Where did you get 30-35% of Sikhs were residing in West Pakistan from that map? It looks more like 5%-10% Sikh populations were residing there in 1900.
Lahore is the only place in Pakistan that looks to have 20%-50% Sikhs, and this would of course be of much greater number than anywhere else in Pakistan because the number of people in Lahore then was high (compared the the other area). 
 
I took the lower numbers of % of all the shades on West Punjab side.  So that would be 20% from the Lahore area - 10% from West/South West of Lahore - 5% from Northwest area of Lahore.  This figure is closer to the source quoted in my previous post.
 
 
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

I suspect a lot of the displaced people were from Punjab, but they got all the land and houses vacated by Indian Muslims in Delhi anyway. Also why does your map show 5%-10% Sikh populations in Nepal, China, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan?
 
Most of the Sikh refugees were not alloted any lands and the hindu migrants were prefered over the former.  The gray is of two shades the just look at the darker gray inside British India.
 
 


Edited by Rajputana - 09-Apr-2007 at 10:31
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 10:45

,



Edited by TeldeInduz - 09-Apr-2007 at 10:48
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 10:45
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

I took the lower numbers of % of all the shades on West Punjab side.  So that would be 20% from the Lahore area - 10% from West/South West of Lahore - 5% from Northwest area of Lahore.  This figure is closer to the source quoted in my previous post.
 
It just looks like the map is percentage Sikh of the local population. So you can't add them up like this if it's the case.
 
  
Most of the Sikh refugees were not alloted any lands and the hindu migrants were prefered over the former.  The gray is of two shades the just look at the darker gray inside British India.
 
Yeah, the bit inside British India is understandable. But the 5%-10% population of Sikhs inside China and Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, I don't really understand. It just looks like the shaded bits in Afghanistan, and West Pakistan mean nothing in that map. Sikhism was centred on Lahore I think.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 09-Apr-2007 at 10:51
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Posts: 59 		  Quote Rajputana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Apr-2007 at 16:24
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

It just looks like the map is percentage Sikh of the local population. So you can't add them up like this if it's the case.
 
It's stating that in the area of Lahore the Sikhs accounted for a minimum of 20% of the Population of the whole area.  Which would be a conservative figure since out of the Total population of Muslims and Sikhs in the surroundings of Lahore city was respectively 815,820 (Muslim) to 244,304 (Sikhs) roughly 23% and in Sheikhupura (Gujarawala) was 445,996 (Muslims) to 119,476 (Sikhs) roughly 21% - Consequences of Pakistan (Khalid Latif Gauba p.24)
 
 
Yeah, the bit inside British India is understandable. But the 5%-10% population of Sikhs inside China and Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, I don't really understand. It just looks like the shaded bits in Afghanistan, and West Pakistan mean nothing in that map. Sikhism was centred on Lahore I think.
 
The gray of China, Tajik., Uzbek. does not signify a sikh population, its a different color shade of gray, than the 5%-10%, which distinguishes British India (white) from the rest of the world.
 
 
 


Edited by Rajputana - 10-Apr-2007 at 00:54
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Posts: 28 		  Quote mughal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2007 at 13:35
Originally posted by machine

I was wondering how many of the Whiter looking Indians are there in terms of numbers????

Does racism still exist between the groups, the ones with the much darker skin and the lighter coloured ones????
 
Did they ever fight wars against one another????
 
 
 
actually the whiter looking indians are very little, the reason is that the orginal inhabitants of india were dravidians and still constitute majority of the population even in the north. You could say india is a Dravidian nation with minority being related to aryans or other people. Its only the indo aryan lanuguage that is spoken by the majority.


Edited by mughal - 15-Apr-2007 at 13:35
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2007 at 01:24

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