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Konstantin Dragazes (Konstantin XI) is a |
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Alparslan1071 
Shogun 
Joined: 14-Jun-2006 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 227 |
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 Topic: Konstantin Dragazes (Konstantin XI) is aPosted: 28-Jun-2006 at 00:52 |
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Some historians say it is a hero and he has deas while he was fighting.But some historians says he is not a hero.Even Ottoman Sultan Murad II made him King of Byzantium after King Ioan or Yohannes.?What do you think?
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Constantine XI
Suspended 
Suspended Joined: 01-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5711 |
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Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 05:34 |
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He's a hero in my book, was man enough to give Byzantium the ending which so properly fit her dramatic and fascinating lifeline.
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Mortaza
Tsar 
Joined: 21-Jul-2005 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 3711 |
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Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 05:36 |
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are you neutral about this topic?
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Digenis
Colonel 
suspended Joined: 22-Nov-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 694 |
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Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 11:12 |
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??  |
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Digenis
Colonel
suspended Joined: 22-Nov-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 694 |
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Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 11:13 |
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If you define what is a hero, you will help us answer.
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xristar
Chieftain 
Joined: 05-Nov-2005 Location: Greece Online Status: Offline Posts: 1028 |
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Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 11:20 |
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He is a hero. Not only because he died in Constantinople, probably fighting, but also because until then he had led the Despotate of Mystras to many campaigns, some of which were actually successful. If he had lived in a better time for Byzantium he would probably be one of the 'great military emperors'. He lived in a difficult time though, but still he tried and fought as much as he could. He was a worthy man, and his galant end gives him rightfully (to my oppinion) the title of the 'hero'.
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Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
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Constantine XI
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Suspended Joined: 01-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5711 |
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 00:53 |
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Definitely not
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Alparslan1071
Shogun
Joined: 14-Jun-2006 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 227 |
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 00:59 |
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Constantine XI , There are any evidence about that?from early time? I mean from 15th century?Because Turks made a hero for this Fall of Constantinople. We knew there was a Hero "Ulubatlı Hasan" and he put the turkish flag on the wall at the first time and he dien on the wall.
That was complitly bullsh*t.What about CostaXI?
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Byzantine Emperor
Arch Duke 
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios Joined: 24-May-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1800 |
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 01:05 |
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Hmmm...I am hoping, by the looks of the screenname and implications of the question, that this is not a rhetorical question!
 Although the Byzantine emperors had been nominal "vassals" of the Ottoman sultan since Manuel II Palaiologos, they still had the freedom to choose their successors. John VIII Palaiologos could have chosen one of his quarreling brothers (Demetrios or Thomas) to succeed him. He was smarter than this, however, and chose Constantine XI for his military savvy and for the fact that he successfully defended Constantinople during John's absence at the Council of Ferrara Florence from 1439-1444.
Eloquently put, indeed. It is good that you mentioned the campaigns of Constantine XI in the Morea for this is little known and discussed.
He was quite successful, given the pitiful condition of the Empire and its army during his tenure as despot and emperor. He managed to push the Latin lords out of Athens and Thebes and to annex it for the Empire. Furthermore, he re-established some control over Thessaly and the northern mountains. For more information on Constantine's military campaigns, see Donald Nicol's The Immortal Emperor.
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Constantine XI
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Suspended Joined: 01-May-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 5711 |
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 01:09 |
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I read Donald Nicol's book which explored the different ways he could have died and some sources say the Emperor committed suicide or assisted suicide. I think the evidence is more in favour that he actually fell during the fighting, relying on Nicol's book.
However he died, Constantine XI had many opportunities to abandon the city and save himself, including right when the Turks were taking the walls. But he did not flee. On top of this, he proved himself energetic and determined in his leadership of the defenders, at one point so overloaded with work and not having slept that he literally fainted from exhaustion. This shows extreme commitment. A number of sources from the period all state how energetic he was, both in leading the defenders of Constantinople and in attempting to strengthen the Byzantines in the Morea. Hassan may be a legend, I'm not sure, but Constantine XI's existence and conduct is a fact. Edited by Constantine XI - 29-Jun-2006 at 01:11 |
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Byzantine Emperor
Arch Duke
Kastrophylax kai Tzaousios Joined: 24-May-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1800 |
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 01:09 |
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Ah ha! The knives have come out like I predicted!
From the chroniclers, I believe Hasan was the Turkish giant who rather unceremoniously had his legs cut out from under him once he jumped onto the ramparts.
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Alparslan1071
Shogun
Joined: 14-Jun-2006 Location: Turkey Online Status: Offline Posts: 227 |
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 11:55 |
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Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor
Ah ha! The knives have come out like I predicted! From the chroniclers, I believe Hasan was the Turkish giant who rather unceremoniously had his legs cut out from under him once he jumped onto the ramparts. Majesty , What you said thats rigth.But he wasnt there :) |
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Arbr Z
Colonel
Joined: 26-May-2006 Location: Albania Online Status: Offline Posts: 598 |
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 12:48 |
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He certainly was a brave man, he chose to fight against the most powerful invader army, and he died. We dont know if he made that for his people, for his pride or for his madness (sadness). But he fought. He could have accepted the occupation, and probably became a vezir or a pasha (as many other did). This gest made of him a hero, it doesnt mean that all of his life was heroic, or that he was a giant semigod etc etc. |
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Prej heshtjes...!
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Digenis
Colonel
suspended Joined: 22-Nov-2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 694 |
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 16:03 |
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David Komnenos,Emperor of Trebizond surrendered in 1461.
When thousands of Ottomans sieged Trebizond,he surrundered ,saved his life and fortune-He was transfered in Serres/Macedonia. (But just Temporarily ,because Mehmet finally killed him) Thomas and Demetrios Paleologos also gave Mystras and Peloponesos in peace. Konstantinos was not a hero for leading succesfull campaigns in southern Greece as despot of Moreas. He was not even a hero because he fought against multiple enemies during the siege. He was not a hero because he was a "religious orthodox christian",or a "brave Greek (Romeos)". He was a hero ,because he had chosen the difficult way,even though Death was almost sure in the end of this way. |
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Heraclius
Chieftain
Joined: 28-Jun-2005 Location: England Online Status: Offline Posts: 1231 |
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Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 17:02 |
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He certainly fits most of the more common criteria for being considered a hero;
1, Refusing to surrender against an infinitely stronger foe,
2, Willing to sacrifice his own life in the defence of others,
3, Refusing to abandon his people despite every opportunity to do so.
Doing it all with the honour and dignity befitting the Emperor of Byzantium. I honestly fail to see what else could be asked of a man in his position, he suffered the same fate as his people and ensured his empire go out with some dignity.
If that doesnt qualify him to be seen as a hero then I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what a man has to do to be a hero, I was always under the impression that you can't possibly give more than your all and your life.
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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
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Nestorian
Pretorian 
Joined: 08-Jul-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 161 |
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Posted: 09-Jul-2006 at 05:11 |
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If he had left Constantinople, the Paleologan dynasty could still be in existence, albeit exiled and at least continue resistance from Mistra, before getting kicked out again :P
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Guests
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Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 03:53 |
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Nice sentence
 I think he deserves the title of a hero, but heroes don't build Empires. Statesmen do.
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rider
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 09-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4664 |
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Posted: 14-Jul-2006 at 05:45 |
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Yes, he was foremost a hero because he chose to live and die with his people. Not surrendering the city,.
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Jazz
Baron 
Joined: 29-Mar-2005 Location: Canada Online Status: Offline Posts: 410 |
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Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 14:57 |
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Here is a recent rendering of the final morning by Iannis Nikou:  Edited by Jazz - 15-Jul-2006 at 15:13 |
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rider
Tsar
Suspended Joined: 09-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 4664 |
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Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 15:59 |
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I have heard that this is a too "knightly" and "western" output of the scene.
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