QuoteReplyTopic: Word "Aryan" is priced becoz of its Indic(Hindu) Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 23:28
Nobody has an iota of doubt that the vedas were
composed in the Sarasvathi region, I dont know why are u requesting me
to concede that, when I have not made any claim or mention that they
were written elsewhere.
Comeone you are not even able to understand what I say
I dont know what logic made u to point out that it wa a gradual migration from the west into India and north West.
Simple. We find evidence of Indo-Aryan place-names in historic eastern Iran/Afghanistan. We also see how similar Indo-Aryan is to European languages. Therefore, there had to be a place somewhere in between where that similarity began. Archaeologically we find cultural drift from central Asia, into the region of the Oxus where the BMAC civilization thrived. Here, the migrants left much of their central Asian culture behind, and continued onward into India where they adopted the local culture there.
My dear freind the Indus valley ruin precisely lie along the course of river Sarasvathi. Now going by the books you read I suppose Indus valley civilization is of the Dravidians.
And why not? If there is one linguistic group which can demonstrate complete local developement, its the Dravidians!!! Have you ever heard of the Brahui? They live in southern Pakistan. Their language is considered a northern form of Dravidian. Yet, their language shows enough of a difference with southern Dravidian to make comparisons with other historic languages possible. Enter, Elamite. We now know that Brahui shows characteristics comparable with Elamite!!! Brahui, therefore stands as a "connecting" language between Elamite and Dravidian, thus allowing us to speak of a "Elamo-Dravidian" language family. Such a "bridge" speaks of a continuum of related languages stretching at one time, from southwestern Iran through the greater part of southern Iran, into southern Pakistan and into western India, and south into southern India!!! Indus Valley Civ., falls right smack into that continuum!!! One thing really bothers me - what do you have against the Dravidians?
You need to take facts here nomads cant be in a position to evolve a great literature until if those setlled for a vey long period of time. And the Vedic people as described in the vedas were no nomads.
Wrong again. Nomads adapt very quickly to a literate civilizations. There are far too many examples in history to mention. As far as the Vedic people are concerned, the Vedas described them as "non-urban, non-maritime, basically uninterested in exchange other than that involving cattle, and lacking in any forms of political complexity beyond that of a king whose primary function seeems to be concerned with warfare and ritual." In warfare, the use of the horse and chariot is described for the storming of enemy "forts". This describes a nomadic society, not the society of the Indus Valley Civ. Out of curiosity, why does Indra "take the Seven Rivers as [his] own domain"? (RgVeda 10.49.9). Didn't the Punjab belong to him before?
Again you are ignoring the basic facts here or otherwise dont know other information. The mittani kings presence in the West asia region with a reduced pantheon of VEDIC GODS seems suggests that they migrated from India along the course of whcih it may be argued with success that the reduced pantheon of GODS is because of loss of culture and religion because of beig away from their original homeland.
There's a big, huge humongus problem with your theory - there is absolutely NOTHING to prove that they came from India. There is no cultural flow traceable archaeologically westwards from India, and no Indian place-names between eastern Iran/Afghanistan and Mesopotamia. The very proof YOU deny for "Aryan" migration into India is the VERY SAME proof that is completely absent from showing that the Mitanni came from India. Again, there's no denial of the Indo-Aryan nature of the Mitanni nobility as well as facits of their language and some deities (other deities worshipped by the Mitanni were in fact Semitic and Hurrian, showing how they adopted local culture). Again, language plays the most important role here. Because Indo-Aryan is far too closely related to Iranian, they must have had a linguistic urheimat as well as an ursprache. It was probably in northern Iran when the Mitanni separated from its Indo-Aryan kin to go into Mesopotamia, while the rest of Indo-Aryans went into India. This is the simplest solution to the problem of linguistic origins.
And you cant take the puranas, epics for your will full deducation and just ignore that other information mentioned in them.
All I did was to show how ridiculous it is to assign very high dates for ancient rulers when the Puranic evidence can be used to thwart such dating.
The puranas mention the migraition of Indian people to the west of its borders...
Yeah, but not far. Still far too close to home to be considered relevant.
Your logic that the presence of vedic culture in the west of India meant a a migration of the people from the west is pretty absurd.
Well, if my "logic" is "absurd" than yours is even "more absurd". How do you like that?
Indian geo political influence in most of the ancient times covered most of Afghanisthan so it is obvious that kabul river is going to be mentioned . It is cannot be an argument that support the westward migration...
Unfortunately my friend the only thing, the Migration theorists can argue to proove this migration is with linguists. As u see here u opted for physical evidence which never suported such a migration or invasion.
The linguistic evidence is far too revealing to be ignored. The only people who try to ignore it are virtually all Indian, with only a handful of foreigners. Try as they might, the consensus of linguists is that IE (including Indo-Iranian) came from somewhere else.
Nobody has an iota of doubt that the vedas were composed in the Sarasvathi region, I dont know why are u requesting me to concede that, when I have not made any claim or mention that they were written elsewhere. Comeone you are not even able to understand what I say
Yes you are right we are not able to understand you. We are not from planet Varma, where everything is made in India I mean made in Varma.
Verma calm down, don't get personal. I am proud of being Indian. Don't make offensive comments. You should respect all cultures believe me there is in Indian history elements that are quite shocking. Lay off Islam.
Let me first say that i don't agree with Iranduxt views on anything to do with Aryas. I have also read her views on "INTELLECTUAL DISCUSSIONS" on "why Persians are proud" and i have given my response, and i'm glad Iranians did as well.
Iranduxt with your "leave me and my ancestors alone" because the Aryas don't and never really existed in India" well in regards to your above comment -don't include me in your "we".
Now Verma you say "according to the books i've read", well tell me were you actually there with the Bharatas?? Your knowledge if i'm not wrong is also based on books.
I have just two question for you?
If the Aryas are of the Indus valley civilisation, why is the rhinoceros the most frequently depicted animal on Harrapan seals but the horse is absent which is central the vedas?
Why is there an indus valley script but no mention of it in the Vedas?
Let me first say that i don't agree with Iranduxt views on anything to do with Aryas.
Even Varma has been saying that through out his posts. Read his posts in this topic alone, "Aryan is a term, is a way of life, is only applied to people who follow the religion". It's not only me and everyone else who say that's what Aryan means to Indians. If you disagree maybe you should start telling your own people what Aryan is.
SHarkinn : I have nothing against the Dravidians and either way I
am proud of the the heir of their sythesis(if their was any), for
argument sake.
Vedam : Havent u read about the opposite claim of the the finding of horse
bone though few in number. I reproduce those here and let me tell
you not even 5% of the Harrapan sites were excavated till now.
Meanwhile,
in several Harappan sites remains of horses have been found. Even
supporters of the AIT have admitted that the horse was known in Mohenjo
Daro, near the coast of the Arabian Sea (let alone in more northerly areas),
in 2500 BC at the latest.30But
the presence of horses and even domesticated horses has already been traced
further back: horse teeth at Amri, on the Indus near Mohenjo Daro, and
at Rana Ghundai on the Panjab-Baluchistan border have been dated to about
3,600 BC. The latter has been interpreted as indicating horse-riding
invaders31, but that is merely an application
of invasionist preconceptions. More bones
of the true and domesticated horse have been found in Harappa, Surkotada
(all layers including the earliest), Kalibangan, Malvan and Ropar.32
Recently, bones which were first taken to belong to onager specimens, have
been identified as belonging to the, domesticated horse (Kuntasi, near
the Gujarat coast, dated to 2300 BC). Superintending
archaeologist Dr. A.M. Chitalwala comments: We may have to ask whether
the Aryans () could have been Harappans themselves. () We dont have
to believe in the imports theory anymore.33
Admittedly,
the presence of horses in the Harappan excavation sites is not as overwhelming
in quantity as in the neolithic cultures of Eastern Europe. However,
the relative paucity of horse remains is matched by the fact that the millions-strong
population of the Harappan civilization, much larger than that of Egypt
and Mesopotamia combined, has left us only several hundreds of skeletons,
even when men sometimes had the benefit of burial which horses did not
have.
The implication
for the question of the horses is that any finds of horses are good enough
to make the point that horses were known in India, and that they were available
to a substantially greater extent than a simple count of the excavated
bones would suggest. The cave paintings in
Bhimbetka near Bhopal, perhaps 30,000 years old (but the datings of cave
paintings are highly controversial), showing a horse being caught by humans,
confirm that horses existed in India in spite of the paucity of skeletal
remains.34 There is, however, room for debate
on whether the animals depicted are really horses and not onagers. Other
cave paintings, so far undated, show a number of warriors wielding sticks
in their right hands and actually riding horses without saddles or bridles.35
The fact
that both the Austro-Asiatic and the Dravidian language families have their
own words for horse (e.g. Old Tamil ivuLi, wild horse, and kutirai,
domesticated horse) not borrowed from the language of the Aryans who
are supposed to have brought the horse into India, should also carry some
weight. Partly because of the uncongenial climate, horses must have
been comparatively rare in India (as they would remain in later centuries,
when Rajput forces were attacked by Turkish invaders with an invariably
superior cavalry), but they were available.
The evidence
concerning horses remains nonetheless the weakest point in the case for
an Indian Urheimat. While the evidence is arguably not such that
it proves the Harappan cultures unfamiliarity with horses, it cannot be
claimed to prove the identity of Vedic and Harappan culture either, the
way the abundance of horse remains in Ukraine is used to prove the IE character
of the settlements there. At this point, the centre-piece of the
anti-AIT plea is an explainable paucity of the evidence material,
so that everything remains possible.
This
is true both at the level of physical evidence and on that of artistic
testimony: the apparent absence of horse motifs on the Harappan seals (except
one)36 can certainly be explained, viz. by
pointing at the equally remarkable absence of the female cow among the
numerous animal depictions on the seals, eventhough the cow must have been
very familiar to the Harappans considering the frequent depiction of the
bull. A taboo on depictions of the two most sacred animals may well
explain the absence of both the cow and the horse. However, it is
obvious that a positive attestation of the horse on the Harappan seals
would have served the non-invasionist cause much better.
A
fossil has been discovered from the Siwalik hills (Himalayan foothills): with
short-pillare teeth and find limbe the horse is 15-hands long and perhaps date back to the
stone age. (J.C.Ewart, Animal remains, in J.Curle, A Roman frontier post and its people
(The Fort of Newstead), Glasgow: J. Mackehose and Sons, 1911, Appendix II, pp.
364,368). E.J. Ross reported the discovery of bones scattered over an area of about 40
ft., of a domesticated horse in the lowest level of Rana Ghundai I, close to Mohenjodaro
and Ga_ndha_ra (pre-Harappan, contemporary with Hissar IA, Susa B and Middle Uruk in Iraq,
assigned to ca. 3500-3400 B.C.) in a chalcolithis site of Northern Baluchistan.
It should be noted, however, that these remains are not, as might be expected, those
of small pony-like animals. The teeth were well examined by an expert veterinary officer
before their dispatch to the Archaeological Department and he assured us that they are
indistinguishable either in structure or in size from those of our modern cavalry horses.
This points to a very long previous period of domestication. (E.J. Ross, Rana
Ghundai, a chalcolithic site in Northern Baluchistan, Journal of Near Eastern Studies,
5, 1946, pp. 284-516; R.H. Dyson, Problems in the relative chronology of Iran 6000-2000
B.C. in R.W. Ehrick, Chronologies in old world archaeology, Chicago, Univ. of
Chicago Press, 1965, pp. 215-50).
A.K.Sharma,
The Harappan horse was buried under the dunes of..., inPuratattva, Bulletin of the Indian
Archaeological Society, No. 23, 1992-93,pp. 30-34]: "At Surkotada the bones of the
true horse (equus caballus Linn.) identified are from Period IA, IB and IC. (radiocarbon
dates: 2315 B.C., 1940 B.C. and 1790 B.C respectively). With the correction factors, the
dates fall between 2400 B.C. and 1700 B.C... In 1938 Mackay (FEM, Vol. I, p. 289) had
remarked on the discovery of a clay model of horse from Mohenjodaro. 'I personally take it
to represent horse. I do not think we need be particularly surprised if it should be
proved that the horse existed thus early at Mohenjo-daro'. About this terracotta figurine
Wheeler wrote: (Indus Civilization, Cambridge, 1968, p. 92): 'One terracotta from a late
level of Mohenjodaro seems to represent a horse, reminding us that the jaw bone of a horse
is also recorded from the same time, and that the horse was known at considerably early
period in northern Baluchistan...
It is likely enough that camel, horse and ass were in fact all familiar feature of the
Indus caravans.'... appearance of true horse from the neolithic sites of Koldihwa and
Mahagara in Uttar Pradesh..." (Note: camel is also not depicted on Harappan
inscriptions)The identification by Sharma has been endorsed by
Prof. Sandor Bokonyi, Director of the Archaeological Institute, Budapest, Hungary (an
archaeozoologist); he wrote in a letter dated 13 Dec. 1993 to the Director General of the
Archaeological Survey of India: 'Through a thorough study of the equid remains of the
prehistoric settlement of Surkotada, Kutcha, excavated under the direction of Dr. J.P.
Joshi, I can state the following: The occurrence of true horse (equus caballus L.) was
evidenced by the enamel pattern of the upper and lower cheek and teeth and by the size and
form of incisors and phalanges (toe bones). Since no wild horses lived in India in
post-Pleistocene times, the domestic nature of the Surkotada horses is undoutbtful. This
is also supported by an intermaxilla fragment whose incisor tooth shows clear signs of
crib biting, a bad habit only existing among domestic horses which are not extensively
used for war."
"Perhaps the most interesting of the model animals is one that I
personally take to represent a horse.' (Mackay 1938, vol. I, p. 289; vol. II, pl.
LXXVIII). Lothal has yielded a terracotta figure of a horse. It has an elongated
body and a thick stumpy tail, mane is marked out over the neck with a low ridge. Faunal
remains at Lothal yielded a second upper molar. Bhola Nath of the Zoological Survey of
India and GV Sreenivasa Rao of the Archaeological Survey of India note (S.R.Rao, 1985, p.
641): 'The single tooth of the horse referred to above indicates the presence of the horse
at Lothal during the Harappan period. The tooth from Lothal resembles closely with that of
the modern horse and has pli-caballian (a minute fold near the base of the spur or
protocone) which is well distinguishable character of the cheek teeth of the horse.'
"However, the most startling discovery comes from the recent excavation at Nausharo,
conducted by Jarrige et al. (in press). In the Harappan levels over here have been found
clearly identifiable terracotta figurines of this animal." (Lal, 1998, opcit., p.
112).
Sorry for copy pasting, but they are facts so it doesnt matter if
I copy paste and those who stick to that horse was absent in Indus
valley civilization, the famous one being Micheal Witzel this is how he
argues
Witzels argument is in the following
lines: (1) No horse bone has been found in Harappan sites. (2) When
pointed out that they are found in some instances, it is said they are
only fragments and not full skeletons. (3) When pointed out they were
found in more than one site it is said the layers in which they were
found ought to have been eroded ones or disturbed. (4) When pointed out
that the reports of horse bones were not by present day archaeologists
but by the early pioneers it is said that those are dubious and decades
old. (5) When pointed out they were reported by archaeological
excavators then comes the argument that archaeologists are not trained
zoologists and palaeontologists to comment on horse bones (though by
the same argument no credence can be placed on Witzel's opinion as he
is neither an archaeologist nor a palaeontologist). Such arguments are
brought under reductio ad absurdum by logicians. More examples
of wilful rejections of points can be cited throughout the article but
suffice to say that for an unbiased reader, the whole article reads
purely a personal attack on an individual writer and exhibits certain
amount of impatience to listen to other view.
Sharkinn : You told " Nomads adopt well to literate civilizations" hahaha u
make me laugh and the way you rubbished me saying "Wrong
again".. Take the example Europe let in these better than
nomadic people the Libyans, Somalis, Pakis, Banghladeshis. Now did u
find them adopting quickly to Literate Europe. Now similarly civilized
people and literate people more than any body can adopt to any
civilization not the nomads and illiterate backward people..
It took a whole 1000 years for the GOTHS, germans to reach the
sophistication of Romans and Greeks though they were neighbours to
these civilizations...
There's a big, huge humongus problem with your theory - there is
absolutely NOTHING to prove that they came from India. There is no
cultural flow traceable archaeologically westwards from India, and no
Indian place-names between eastern Iran/Afghanistan and Mesopotamia.
The very proof YOU deny for "Aryan" migration into India is the VERY
SAME proof that is completely absent from showing that the Mitanni came
from India. Again, there's no denial of the Indo-Aryan nature of the
Mitanni nobility as well as facits of their language and some deities
(other deities worshipped by the Mitanni were in fact Semitic and
Hurrian, showing how they adopted local culture). Again, language
plays the most important role here. Because Indo-Aryan is far too
closely related to Iranian, they must have had a linguistic urheimat as well as an ursprache.
It was probably in northern Iran when the Mitanni separated from its
Indo-Aryan kin to go into Mesopotamia, while the rest of
Indo-Aryans went into India. This is the simplest solution to the
problem of linguistic origins.
Now certain Varma lives in US, it is obvious that he came from India.
it does'nt need a great mapping of my trail, checking my passport to
say that I came from India. But due to the 1500BC
time frame, Their needs to be evidence to convince skeptics like you,
but you should recoganise that with that reason again the evidence
becomes all the more difficult to secure becoz of 1500 BC time frame.
Here I havent got hold on any material of the
origins of place names in West asia, but u should forget the
ability of Sanskrit unlike any other language contain the roots of most
words. So it doesnt becoem that hard to relate the names of
places to Indian culture and langugaes
here are far too many examples in history to mention. As far as the
Vedic people are concerned, the Vedas described them as "non-urban,
non-maritime, basically uninterested in exchange other than that
involving cattle
I
really dont seem to know whether u are really reading RV. Vedas doesnt
describe these people as non urban, non maritime and themsleves as
nomads" but I guess u were reading the translations of 20th cenutry
scholars most of who's translations were driven with justifying British
colonisation of India.
No longer
it is beleived in the scholarly cirlces that RV people were non urban,
non maritime. It has been refuted with valid arguments and this notion
of the vedic people is no longer accepted.
RV descriptions alone dispel this myths and a mere
anaysys would tell you that Vedic people were no nomads. and they were
urban, and maritime.I would present them upon ur request.
Vedam : I read the same books but I read the both side of the
arguments and deduce and weigh the archeological, astronomical and
literary eidence and I dont take linguists as all linguistic theories
are just hypotheisis.
I am 23 years of age and I need to keep up with my studies
in computer science as well I am really struck to the computer wasting
a lot of time....
I may reply slowly but have patience...
I would ask to refer to this site to know some of the information about
the evidence of posiible cultural trail from India and Indic
names in West asia beyongf Eastern Iran place names and the origin of
kingdom names of West asia..
Iranduxt believe me i will not reply to your comments, unless i feel you are attacking different civilisations witth baseless comments, without foundation.
If you make such comments then be prepared for a reaction.
Let me first say that i don't agree with Iranduxt views on anything to do with Aryas.
Even Varma has been saying that through out his posts. Read his posts in this topic alone, "Aryan is a term, is a way of life, is only applied to people who follow the religion". It's not only me and everyone else who say that's what Aryan means to Indians. If you disagree maybe you should start telling your own people what Aryan is.
For your information i have been arguing with Verma throughout this TOPIC, and you only say it in reference to Indians not Iranians, so as to exclude. Verma says it about all Aryans, that is the difference.
"maybe i should tell my own people what Aryan is" i think your quote sums you up.
I totally agree with Sharrukin who i presume is not of Indian origin.Its just like when you were attacking other Iranians because they dared to disagree with another Iranian. For me its not Indian V iranian. TRUTH KNOWS NO ETHNICITY!.
You can have a dig at me as much as you like as you allready have been in the other topic "why Persians are proud", but you can't change facts, and you can't change history.
I don't even know why i am taking the bate. But its the way you word it.
I recognise the glory of Persia believe me.
Your comments about "all the mathamaticians, scientists, philosophers, engineers were from Persia until the Arabs introduced it to the rest of the world."
Yes fine if it makes you happy with your version of history and the facts, then good luck to you.
I have allready explained so many times on that topic to what I was exactly trying to say.
And what I meant by saying that you can not change facts and history was in regards to what Aryan means to Indians.
As i have said to you so many many times.
The Arya in the Rig veda are a ethno-linguistic group, there are many tribes by name, they all speak the Arya language and take part in the VEDIC Ritual. Those that are not Aryas are the dasas, who are the enemies of the Aryas and Arya Gods.
I dont what you base your facts and history on.
Read the Vedas before you make yor comments.
I am not the only INDIAN who subscibes to this. I suggest you read Romila Thapar -a history of India.
You say "i have been to india i know what Indians look like" what Indians are you refering to, its a vast country of 1 billlion.
Have you seen the Brahmins of Kashmir, the Khatris of Delhi and Punjab, many originally from Peshawar, the Rajputs, sindhis, Gujaratis, chitpavans who have grey eyes, Tamils, bengalis.
Which is india, we have 15 official languages .
I some how don't think you have seen each and every indian, because you have relations there.
Aryas, Greeks, Parthians, Sycthians, Kushanas, White huns all have entered India at some point and settled. That is why we are such a versatile people.
I am not gonna be bated by you anymore. I have nothing left to say to you. YOU CAN THINK WHAT YOU WANT
Vedam,
Romila Thapar's scholarship has been under serious questions and it is
pretty evident in her works. You just need to read her critics to jst
get a glimpse of how many blunders she had made with the hiostory of
India.
And one more
thing, in her works Romila Thapar till recently classified Aryans as
some one who invaded India massacred the local population and
establishe their rule and introduced caste system. Now after the recent
findings she started to air that it might be miogration that brought
Aryans to India and it is only fairly recently that she classified
Aryans as ethno Linguistic groups. Romila thapar's work is consumed by
communism and she is no scholar, she is just a historian(I can becoem a
historian by reading the works of my predecessors and teaching it to
the students), thus she became a historian. I dotn think if she ever
had the intellect to intrepet the archeological and genetic findingss,
but cites some other bigot like WITZEL who's scholarship is just
linguists and comments on every other field.
Romila Thapars book a
hsitory of India is not exhaustive and I dont think any intelligent
perso will make an opinion just by reading it, but u need to start
reading the opposite view or Critique of that book where in the
possible blunders willl be highlighted thus overall contributing to a
more truthfull account of history.
This is breif critiqe of Romila thapars book History of India http://www.voiceofdharma.com/indology/thaparreview1.html
Please
develop a habit of cross checking which will help understand an issue
much better rather than holding some book as ultimate error free
compilation....Dont behave like Muslm
Verma I realise i am arguing with an extremist hindu nationalist, and any debate with you is a waste of time, as you have completely rewritten history. You have your own Hinduvta historians who have their own "evidence" and everything prior is a result of British Colonialism. Ive heard it all before .
Let me guess "Abraham means non-brahman"
For your infomation i have read various counter views as well, and your views are mainly just conjecture without proof, and your "historians" seem to have a hindutva taint, whose so called facts are questionable, and far from conclusive.
You are very judgemental and speak in an extremely offensive away. I do not know if i want to bother debateing with such a person.
You say you don't mean to offend any cultures and then say "don't behave like muslim".
This is really not worth my time and energy.
You tell me to develop a habit of cross checking,
I don't need to be told how to cross check anything, especially by you!!!!!! Believe me i know how to analyse.
I live in the UK and have muslim friends, and your comment has offended me.
You can speak on your own behalf but do not speak on behalf of all Indians.
A 23 year old is telling me how develop a habit of cross checking rather than holding some book as ultimate error free.
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