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Origins of the name "Istanbul"

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Origins of the name "Istanbul"
    Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 15:08
It s like the recent catalogue of monuments of the City,that the mayor offered to the children of elementary schools ,in order to learn about the monuments of Istanbul.
Agia Sophia was not included!!
How do you know this? Infact I am greek, I wont cry for this. If turks dont care Agia Sophia, you may have some chance to convert it back to Church. If Turks respect and know It well, They force goverment for converting it back to Mosque.
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  Quote Bashibozuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 15:13
Gokturks had contact, trade and alliance with the Roman Empire. They've sent their diplomats in the 6th century, actually they united against the Sassanid Persians, but altough the Gokturks attacked them in Khwarezm (Turkmenistan), Romans betrayed them in some sense by staying neutral.
 
There were no major cities of another civilization in the Western coast of Asia Minor.That's why it was inhabited by Ancient Hellens in a very short period of time and without great difficulty
 
What about Milluvanda, Abassa, Assos, Halikarnassos etc.?
 
The same for the Pontian coast
 
No, actually many Pontian cities who are said to have "Greek" names in origin, are derived or corrupted froms of Laz. For example "Rize"/ Rhizaion, means "the land where soldiers gather", or a fort, in Laz. "Trabizond" is also a corruption of the name of the Laz tribe, Tibarene, and another tribe Matza gave the name of the southern city, "Machka".
 
Sinope is Pahplagonian/Luvian, or originally, Pauwa Lacawonian, Palaic people's language, related with Hittite and Kashka. You said your ancestry was partly from ancient Pontian region, before trying to prove your pure Greek descendence, let's focus on your Caucasian inheritence...
 
So indeed, when Acheans arrived, or Miletans arrived, or Oghuz arrived, they mostly just corrupted the original name or derived similar names, based on real names of cities, and regions. Or when the locals got assimilated, they just changed their tongue and the name became meaningless for them....


Edited by Bashibozuk - 29-Jun-2006 at 15:18
Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar,
Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar.
Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 15:28
@ Mortaza

I really dont have any agony about converting Agia Sophia to a church (or a mosque) !
I just wish that such monuments -which are cultural heritage of the whole planet-would be respected,and not "erased" by stupid nationalism.

@ Bashibozuk

Do u have "the Great para-Etymological Dictionary" in your Library?Smile

Riza =the lands were soldiers gather?
 Too small name ,too big meaning!Big smile

In fact "Riza" in greek means "root",used also for the  foot of the mountains.

Tibarene ?? In greek its not "Trabizond",its "Trapezous".
Do you know "trapezium" ? Geometry ?Smile

PS:i am sure you have a theory about "Anadolu".
It s obviously ,not derived from greek "Anatoli"=East,
but fro man ancient Hittite word.LOL



Edited by Digenis - 29-Jun-2006 at 15:32
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 15:40
I just wish that such monuments -which are cultural heritage of the whole planet-would be respected,and not "erased" by stupid nationalism.
 
 
It wont be "erased". It is still making a lot money.
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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 15:45
Yes..ready to collapse,
fashion shows inside it,..
but money is money.
Trillions of turkish Lira!
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 15:47
There is not any fashion show inside of it, and I dont think It will colapse without an earthquake.
 
By the way, new turkish lirasSmile


Edited by Mortaza - 29-Jun-2006 at 15:49
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  Quote Bashibozuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 16:07
Do u have "the Great para-Etymological Dictionary" in your Library?
 
No, but some sources which are useful when web is full of every kinds of propoganda. Have you ever heard of William Edward David Allen?
 
Riza =the lands were soldiers gather?
 
Did you fail your primary school? I hope you can read. I said "renamed" according to the original name. Will you accept the fact that there lived some Thracians before Hadrian rebuilt a city for them, or there lived some Armenians in Karin before Theodosius renamed the city? Same for Rize. It never meant brass, it was just a remaning procedure.
 
And I thought you called the city Trebizond, or Τραπεζούντα in Greek. Does it actually matter?

It s obviously ,not derived from greek "Anatoli"=East,
but fro man ancient Hittite word.LOL

Nope, I don't have one yet, but when I find one (I probably will, since Greek colonisers didn't tend to derive any original names.), I'll try to enlighten you all.
 
And I also have a theory for the Balkans, common with most sensible scholars, I guess the name is Turkish, don't you agree with us? Of course, it's Dorian, or Aeolian, for you, right?Smile
 
Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar,
Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar.
Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 16:16
Originally posted by Bashibozuk

Nope, I don't have one yet, but when I find one (I probably will, since Greek colonisers didn't tend to derive any original names.), I'll try to enlighten you all.


I m looking forward for enlightment ...or fun...-both are niceBig smile

(I m pretty sure you will find something like :
Anadolu="the place where Greek culture and past is unknown and when its known we try to erase it."Tongue )



Edited by Digenis - 29-Jun-2006 at 16:20
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jun-2006 at 18:27

First of all what we need to understand is that Ancient Hellens used Hellenified versions of foreign toponyms,cities,names,sometimes totally different ,sometimes not.For example ,the name Darios for the Persian dara.The Hellenic word Hettaios,or in english Hittite, for the Hebrew Heth.

 During the period of the Old kingdom  ,the Hittites were mainly focusing their military operations in   Northern Mesopotamia due to existence of significantly powerfull enemies such as the Hurrites ,and the Giamads in Syria.There were Hittitian colonies in Syria and maybe in Palestine ,but not in Western Asia Minor.If again we accept the fact that Troy was located near the Straits of Hellispontos,the only organized State west of Hattusa and of the Hittitian State was the kingdom of Troy,as described in the Homer's Illiad and Odyssey.The only shore that the Hittites reached was the Southern,an area where Hellens did not found any colonies,with the domination over Arzava.During the New Kingdom,a period of political instability and foreing invasions ,the only serious Western threat was from Arzava,which was in the mainland of Asia Minor.The whole epicenter of politics and strategic campaings was the area of Syria,Northren Mesopotamia and Taurus mountains,due to the fact that all possible enemies were in that specific area ,such as the Egyptians ,the Assyrians,the Mitanni etc.The Ahigiava ,a Western power mentioned in scripts since the reign of Supiluliumas (1375 B.C),were in the fact the Ahaioi ,Hellens from the Hellenic mainland who had founded colonies in the Western shore of Asia Minor.So,we see Hittitian presence in the Southern  shore of Asia Minor,e.g the city of Tarsa(later Tarsos) and no Ahigiavan colonies,colonies of the Ahaioi while there were no major cities in the Western shores,where the Ahigiavan presence,again the presence of the Ahaioi, was strong.

Before the Hittites,the Luvians had under their influence and control the area from Kizuvatna in the East (North of Tarsos) to Luka and a part of  Karia in the West.But still,they had not reach the shores of Western Asia Minor.

The Phrygians were the only ones from the people of the "Aegean Immigration",which "officialy" ended the rule of the Hittites in the region, who managed to found a form of State.The Phrygian State had as it's Western border the river Maiandrus,not the shores of Western Asia Minor.The only ones that managed to really reach the shores were the Lydians.But the Hellenic presence in the area had already been known and later established since the Ahigiava.In fact some of the colonies were founded in the last years of the Mycenean Era.

So the only Western State which ruled in the shores,was the kingdom of Troy ,which was destroyed by the Ahaioi(Ahigiava).

As for the names,the Hellens ,as mentioned above ,used Hellenified versions for foreign names ,e.g Lykia for the Luka,Asia for the Asuva.The name Ahigiava could actually come from the Hellenic Ahaioi and not the other way around.And that's all.



Edited by Spartakus - 29-Jun-2006 at 18:31
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 02:59
Originally posted by Digenis

It s like the recent catalogue of monuments of the City,that the mayor offered to the children of elementary schools ,in order to learn about the monuments of Istanbul.Agia Sophia was not included!!What are these people afraid of?

But Agia Sophia was added to that catalogue in the end.

I don't think that event has anything to do with Greeks.

It seems the mayor, who was elected through an Islamist party, is not fond of museums.
    
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  Quote Digenis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 07:05
Wasn't the same person who started these funny celebrations(so many faked moustaches!Big smile) for the conquest of the city in 29th May?

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  Quote Ellin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 09:35
No, actually many Pontian cities who are said to have "Greek" names in origin, are derived or corrupted froms of Laz. For example "Rize"/ Rhizaion, means "the land where soldiers gather", or a fort, in Laz. "Trabizond" is also a corruption of the name of the Laz tribe, Tibarene, and another tribe Matza gave the name of the southern city, "Machka".

hmmm.. interesting.. never heard of that one before...
the most common etymological explanation i keep coming across is as follows.

Trabzon took it's Greek name of Trapezous from the shape of it's flat-topped acropolis (Greek "trapeza" table).  According to Xenophon (5th century BC), it was founded perhaps as early as the 8th century BC by settlers of the Greek colony of Sinope and it soon developed into a flourishing city.
source: http://www.planetware.com/turkey/trabzon-tr-tr-tr.htm

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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 18:34
Pontic cities are all decended from Greek names because they are decended from Alexander's empire (I think)
 
Istanbul is a corruption of Islambul which was a nickname adopted by the Ottomans and an early name for the city
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 05:20
I don't know why some Greeks have such a problem, there traces in Anatolia are via Colonising already existing civillisations and invasion. The fact is, they weren't very good at being tolerant and granting rights and there was a huge justice and social inequality.
 
In the end they made way for new invaders, so really its pointless being upset.
 
The Turks who entered treated the locals better, gave them a sense of belonging and a way to rise up against the opperssive Byzantine rule of the era.
 
Istanbul is a corruption of Islambol that's correct, making the city one of the great centre's of Muslims was on Fatih the Conquerors mind.
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  Quote Ellin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 06:22
Originally posted by mamikon


The theory is as follows:

Greeks (as well as Armenians) usually referred to "Constantinoupolis" as "Polis".

"into the city", in Greek translates into "is tin Polin", which to the ears of Turks may have been similar to "is tan bulis" or "Istanbul".


This is how i have known the name Istanbul to have eventuated.  Which most sources seem to ascertain/confirm.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


As I mentioned several times Istanbul is a very Persian word which means exactly "Land Bridge", I hope you at least know that Afghanistan means "Land of Afghans" and its capital Kabul means "Mountain Bridge".


This sounds kinda feasible, ie that they "may" have borrowed from the Persian language, considering an estimated 60-65% of the words in Turkish were of foreign origin (predominately Arabic and Persian (source = lexicorient.com/e.o/turkish.htm)) but it doesn't stick, because the Turkish language was being revamped, ie cleansed and purged of it's foreign words, round about the same time the city was officially named Istanbul.  They obviously opted to go with the bastardised/corrupted version of the greek term, "eis tin poli", because of familiarity.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Most of the Turks do not care about the name of the city or they think it is a Turkish name.


what do they think it means in Turkish?
If the Turks can't come up with an etymology of the word, then they can't claim ownership, i would've thought.

Originally posted by erkut

too many city names in Anatolia(ewen the name of anatolia) greek.
but itsnt a big deal. ewen the names were chineese it wouldnt change the owners of the cities.


hehe.. well true to a point, but the major concern here is plagiarism.

Originally posted by Bulldog

I don't know why some Greeks have such a problem, there traces in Anatolia are via Colonising already existing civillisations and invasion. The fact is, they weren't very good at being tolerant and granting rights and there was a huge justice and social inequality.


wow.. is that why Byzantium was the longest surviving empire ever to have existed??
If that was the case, it would've crumbled well before the Mongols invaded.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 07:06
Originally posted by Bulldog

I don't know why some Greeks have such a problem, there traces in Anatolia are via Colonising already existing civillisations and invasion. The fact is, they weren't very good at being tolerant and granting rights and there was a huge justice and social inequality.
 
In the end they made way for new invaders, so really its pointless being upset.
 
The Turks who entered treated the locals better, gave them a sense of belonging and a way to rise up against the opperssive Byzantine rule of the era.
 
Istanbul is a corruption of Islambol that's correct, making the city one of the great centre's of Muslims was on Fatih the Conquerors mind.
 
Clap couldn't have said it better
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 07:09
Elinn
what do they think it means in Turkish?
If the Turks can't come up with an etymology of the word, then they can't claim ownership, i would've thought.
 
They have, "Islambol", which is a natural and logical conclusion.
 
Mehmed the Conqueror was a religous man, he was spurred on to make the city a centre for Muslims and from Haddiths saying one day Constantinople would be conquered by Muslims.
 
Islambol = City with abundance of Islam, city of lots of Islam.
 
Its far more logical than the other theories which cannot be substantiated or objectively proven.
 
The Turks already new the name of the city, from the Arabs, "Konstantinniye" you think they invaded a city and didn't even know the name or what to call it, then as they marched in Mehmed though damn what shall I call the city then a few Greek peasents walking by were saying "Is Tin Polin" so Mehmed that's it, that's the name and that's what were gonna call it, "Into the City" Confused  its such a ludacris theory. Mehmed II spoke 6 languages, its likely he knew Greek and there were Greek renegades in the army. You think they would choose such a ridiculous name for a city.
 
too many city names in Anatolia(ewen the name of anatolia) greek.
 
Anatolia is not a Greek word.
 
Which cities? most are Hellenized verions of earlier names.
 
 
Elinn
wow.. is that why Byzantium was the longest surviving empire ever to have existed??
 
That's romantic thinking, unless your referring to the Continuation from the Western Roman Empire in which case its still not true.
 
 
If that was the case, it would've crumbled well before the Mongols invaded.
 
It did, after the loss of Malazkirit it was all over for the Byzantiums then after the Battle of Myriokephalon it was well and truly over. Then the Christian brothers visit to Contantinople really sealed its fate for good.

 


Edited by Bulldog - 19-Jul-2006 at 07:10
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  Quote Ellin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 08:50
Originally posted by Bulldog

Mehmed the Conqueror was a religous man, he was spurred on to make the city a centre for Muslims and from Haddiths saying one day Constantinople would be conquered by Muslims.
 
Islambol = City with abundance of Islam, city of lots of Islam.
 
Its far more logical than the other theories which cannot be substantiated or objectively proven.


ok so then why the deviation from what seems to have been a purely Turkic word ie "Islambol" and having such religious significance also,
to Istanbul, where "Islam" is no longer evident in the name?


Originally posted by Bulldog


Anatolia is not a Greek word.


I guess you're going to tell me that that's Turkish as well!
Even based on the phonetics of the word, you don't have a case.
Anatolia (ancient name of Asia Minor) is the latin form of the Greek
original, Anatole (pron. A-na-to-li) meaning "the east", originally "sunrise" (which happens in the east obviously), lit. "a rising above (the horizon)," from anatellein "to rise," from ana "up" + tellein "to accomplish, perform."

A lot of Greek women have this name also..
and thanks to our 'age old' naming tradition that dates back to antiquity, this can also serve as a testament to it's ethnological roots.


 
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  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 10:00
Elinn
wow.. is that why Byzantium was the longest surviving empire ever to have existed??
 
I guess if you count the begining of the Rome in around 700 BC to the fall of constantinople in 1453, that must be around 2'700 years old! Technically, the Byzantine empire was an offshot of the Roman empire. Many Byzantines were proud of their heritage and some powerful Byzantine emperors like Justinian attempted to re-conquer Rome! So that does mean, i suppose that it is!
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  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 12:27
Originally posted by Bulldog

Elinn
what do they think it means in Turkish?
If the Turks can't come up with an etymology of the word, then they can't claim ownership, i would've thought.
 
They have, "Islambol", which is a natural and logical conclusion.
 
Mehmed the Conqueror was a religous man, he was spurred on to make the city a centre for Muslims and from Haddiths saying one day Constantinople would be conquered by Muslims.
 
Islambol = City with abundance of Islam, city of lots of Islam.
 
Its far more logical than the other theories which cannot be substantiated or objectively proven.
 
The Turks already new the name of the city, from the Arabs, "Konstantinniye" you think they invaded a city and didn't even know the name or what to call it, then as they marched in Mehmed though damn what shall I call the city then a few Greek peasents walking by were saying "Is Tin Polin" so Mehmed that's it, that's the name and that's what were gonna call it, "Into the City" Confused  its such a ludacris theory. Mehmed II spoke 6 languages, its likely he knew Greek and there were Greek renegades in the army. You think they would choose such a ridiculous name for a city.
 
 
More of this nonsense about "Islambol".  The name Istanbul has nothing to do with Islambol.  If the Turks were so concerned about putting the word islam within the name of the city, then why do they call it Istanbul today and not Islambol.  The origins of the word Istanbul are Greek.  It simply means "the city."  It has nothing to do with islam.


Edited by R_AK47 - 19-Jul-2006 at 12:29
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