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Critically Evaluate Korean prehistory.

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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Critically Evaluate Korean prehistory.
    Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 19:16

This thread has degenerated into a meaningless nationalist nonsense, do remember this is the ancient history thread, not histrical amusement.

 

"The Korean people have created cultural wealth they can be proud of in their history of 5,000 years, and enriched the world's treasure house of culture.
In the Taedong River basin were discovered the tomb of Tangun, the founder-king of Korea, the altar to Tangun, ancient walls dating back to 5,000 years, tombs with slaves buried alive together with their dead masters, the sites of large villages evocative of ancient cities, about 14,000 dolmens where were buried members of the then ruling classes, about 200 dolmens engraved with diagrams of ancient constellations, and in which were found different kinds of valuable bronze wares, including lute-shaped daggers and lute-shaped spearheads, gold objects such as earrings and finger rings, earthenware items and other relics. These remains and relics provide a potent material proof that the Taedong River basin was the centre of Kojoson, the first state of Korea, the cradle of the Korean nation, and the cradle of one of the earliest civilizations in the world
"

 

 

This is bullsh*t, I really feel ashamed for these east asian historians today who brazenly exaggerate their country's history by thusands of years without basis. They obviously don't understand what a civilization is. Discovery of some tombs and villages does not make it a civilization, a civilization require either founding of advanced metal work, complicated cities with trading and organized management, or the discovery of writing. This is internationally set. None of these were ever found there thus no history could be claimed. And I'm still amazed at the fact that propagandalists still claim people such as Tangun as real and even if we're to trust his legend, he began his reign sometimes around 2300 b.c. not 5000 years ago!



1. The Taedong River Basin Was One of the Cradles of the Earliest States in the World



The most important index of ancient civilization is the founding of a state.

The Taedong River basin was the place where Kojoson, one of the earliest states in the world, was founded.

Above all, this has been proved by the discovery and excavation of Tangun's tomb.

The tomb of Tangun, the father of the Korean nation, was excavated in Kangdong County, Pyongyang City in 1993.

The tomb had been plundered several times. When it was excavated, only the remains of two persons, Tangun and his wife, were discovered, plus a few relics, including fragments of a gilt-bronze crown.

The excavation of Tangun's tomb proved scientifically that Tangun was the real founder-king of the Korean nation, and no longer a mythological figure. Since he founded Kojoson 5,000 years ago in the Taedong River basin, Kojoson was thus one of the earliest states in the world.

Ancient Rome, which had a long tradition as a slave-owing state, started to be ruled by kings in the 8th century B.C. and Japan's history says that its first state was founded in the mythological age. Even those periods were two thousand several hundred years later than Kojoson.

A state is said to have been founded in the period of the Longshun culture (2,800-2,000 B.C.), at the close of the Neolithic age, in the Yellow River basin in China, which is recognized as one of the cradles of ancient civilization. But even that was hundreds of years after the founding of Kojoson. It was only about 4,500 years ago that a state was founded in the Indus River basin of India.

States emerged in the basins of the Nile River in Egypt and the Tigris-Euphrates Rivers in southwestern Asia almost in the same period as in the Taedong River basin.

Thus, it is quite natural that the Taedong River basin should be one of the cradles of the earliest states in the world and ancient civilization.

Archaeological research found that from olden times it had been a custom of the Korean people to be buried in their birthplaces after death.

It was also a custom with them that the tombs of kings should be built around the capital.

Following this custom, the Koguryo tombs with mural paintings, including tombs of kings, were massed around Pyongyang, the capital of Koguryo, the tombs of the kings of Koryo, around Kaesong, the capital of Koryo, and the tombs of the kings of the Ri dynasty, around Seoul, the capital of the Ri dynasty.

The facts that Tangun's tomb is in Kangdong County, Pyongyang City and that the remains of Tangun were discovered there provide compelling proof that Tangun was born in Pyongyang, and made Pyongyang his capital when he founded Kojoson.

That the Taedong River basin was one of the cradles of the earliest states in the world is proved also by the Altar to Tangun.

The altar was found at the foot of Mt. Taesong in Hwasong-dong, Ryongsong District, Pyongyang City. After Tangun's death, the Kojoson people held a memorial service for him every lunar tenth month, regarding him as the heaven-sent first king and worshipping him as a mythical being.

In the Nile River basin and in the basins of the Tigris-Euphrates Rivers, which were also cradles of ancient civilization, the ruling classes of Egypt and Mesopotamia built grand temples to make people worship the king as the "sun god" and obey him absolutely, and held memorial services for him there.

Hence, some historians regard temples as important symbols of an ancient state and ancient civilization.

According to old chronicles, including the Kyuwonsahwa,, in Korea memorial services for Tangun began to be held immediately after his death and continued up to modern times.

This is more material evidence showing that Tangun was worshiped as the real founder-king of Kojoson during ancient, medieval and modern times of Korean national history, and that the Taedong River basin, where Tangun's tomb and altar were found, was one of the cradles of the ancient states and ancient civilizations.

In the Taedong River basin, centering on Pyongyang, there have been unearthed in different places the sites of villages attributable to the beginning of the third millennium B.C. typical of them are the Phyodae remains and the Namgyong remains in Honam-ri, Samnsok District, Pyongyang City, the remains in Pukchang County, South Phyongan Province, the Namyang remains in Tokchon City in the same province, the remains in Sokthan-ri, Songrim City, North Hwanghae Province, and the remains in Koyon-ri, Hwangju County in the same province.

In these remains were discovered sites of large villages consisting of 100-150 dwelling sites where toy top-shaped vessels were found. These provide sufficient grounds for maintaining that an ancient city was nearby.

This implies that in those days the Taedong River basin centering on Pyongyang was the political, economic and cultural centre and one of the cradles of the earliest ancient states in the world.

Lute-shaped daggers and spearheads and other bronze weapons unearthed in this region are additional evidence of this.

Arms are a symbol of power organs and the basis for the existence of a state.

Such bronze weapons as lute-shaped daggers and lute-shaped spearheads, superior to copper or stone weapons, were used already in the early their millennium B.C. in the Taedong River basin.

This is proved by the lute-shaped spearheads unearthed in dolmen No. 5, attributable to the early period of Kojoson, in Ryonggok-ri, Sangwon County, Pyongyang City, at house site No. 10 at the Phyodae remains in Honam-ri and at house site No. 16 of the Namyang remains and by the lute-shaped dagger unearthed in stone kist tomb No. 1 at Sonam-ri, Sinphyong County, North Hwanghae Province, situated at the foot of the Nam stream, a tributary of the Taedong River.

The lute-shaped dagger and spearhead are bronze weapons peculiar to Kojoson.

Ancient bronze weapons such as the lute-shaped dagger and spearhead of early Kojoson have never been unearthed in any other region in the world.

Therefore, it is natural to regard the Taedong River basin, where the earliest bronze weapons in the world, dated to the early third millennium B.C., were found, as the cradle of the earliest state in the world.

 

 

"Well you have to remember that even if these pyramids are in the Heart of Chinese civilization, One branch of the first Koreans, the Dongyi, also started out in China proper, and quite posibly came from India fleeing the Aryan invasion.  "

 

Dong yi aren't Koreans. And since they are "Dong" they are from the east, the Aryan invasion is absolutely baseless.

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 19:52
Warhead, can you at least underline the main points?  I don't have time for that...
Grrr..
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 19:58
Let's just call this thread dead...

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 20:03

Double post, but here we go:

This is bullsh*t, I really feel ashamed for these east asian historians today who brazenly exaggerate their country's history by thusands of years without basis. They obviously don't understand what a civilization is. Discovery of some tombs and villages does not make it a civilization, a civilization require either founding of advanced metal work, complicated cities with trading and organized management, or the discovery of writing. This is internationally set. None of these were ever found there thus no history could be claimed. And I'm still amazed at the fact that propagandalists still claim people such as Tangun as real and even if we're to trust his legend, he began his reign sometimes around 2300 b.c. not 5000 years ago!

Ever heard about Garimto?

And you said yourself that "Ancient bronze weapons such as the lute-shaped dagger and spearhead of early Kojoson have never been unearthed in any other region in the world.

Therefore, it is natural to regard the Taedong River basin, where the earliest bronze weapons in the world, dated to the early third millennium B.C., were found, as the cradle of the earliest state in the world."

And 2300bc is like 700 years innacurate, but I don't think anyone would bother with 5000.  (1 sig dig rules you know)

Dong yi aren't Koreans. And since they are "Dong" they are from the east, the Aryan invasion is absolutely baseless.

Dong= east yi=barbarian.

Dong Yi= Eastern Barbarian.

Who shall it be?  HMMMMMM.  LET ME THINK.

According to geography, east of China is Korea....Ahhhh, my brain hurts!

Oh, Ive got it!  Old Choson!  Even better: Baedal and Chiu.

But I won't say anything about Indian Arean whatever stuff because I disagree with that as well.

Grrr..
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 10:38

"And you said yourself that "Ancient bronze weapons such as the lute-shaped dagger and spearhead of early Kojoson have never been unearthed in any other region in the world.

Therefore, it is natural to regard the Taedong River basin, where the earliest bronze weapons in the world, dated to the early third millennium B.C., were found, as the cradle of the earliest state in the world.""

 

No, there is a difference between natural bronze and man created Bronze, all earlier bronze pieces found in East asia were naturally formed and has little to do with tehcnology thus civilization, Crude Bronze alone still doesn't qualify a civilization, as I mentioned civilization require far higher sophistication.

 

"Dong= east yi=barbarian.

Dong Yi= Eastern Barbarian.

Who shall it be?  HMMMMMM.  LET ME THINK.

According to geography, east of China is Korea....Ahhhh, my brain hurts!

Oh, Ive got it!  Old Choson!  Even better: Baedal and Chiu."

 

How about no, Dong Yi isn't even in the same place as the present day Koreans, and even if so, the kingdom of Korea or chosun is not around at this time and even if we're to trust later historical records, then its even more obvious that Chosun is clearly a different country than the Dong yi.

 

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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 16:09

How about no, Dong Yi isn't even in the same place as the present day Koreans, and even if so, the kingdom of Korea or chosun is not around at this time and even if we're to trust later historical records, then its even more obvious that Chosun is clearly a different country than the Dong yi.

Which historical sources?

Handangogi said that East of China laid Baedal, which is acceded by Choson, then by Puyo, then by Koguryi, then by Kori(Koryo), which Is Korea.

Discovery of some tombs and villages does not make it a civilization, a civilization require either founding of advanced metal work, complicated cities with trading and organized management, or the discovery of writing

Garimto(official language of Koreans in Old Choson- reintroduced by King Sejong with some improvement):

-----

Excerpts from Handangogi:

ӪѺ

Գ ذѨ ذ ٥ Ѩ Ѩ   - ........

ؿõϸ簡 ƴµ ִ. ߲Գ  ˽

˽٤ ˽ ͺ ؿڪ........

ͺ٤Ѧ ߲߾ ؿڪ Ѩ   Ѧ  

ؿե .......  Գ

Գ ͯ   Գ

Գ ͯͯ......ͺ.......ϴ...

Happy Reading

 

Grrr..
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 18:44

Though the passage is from the Korean text Handangogi, it is written mostly in Chinese, actually, classical Chinese to be exact.  This is written sometime around the end of China's Ming dynasty.  It says as follows:

In the ways to run a nation, nothing comes first than education, and nothing is more urgent than history.  The reason being, if history of a nation is unclear, then there is no basis for education.  If there is no good education then it shakes the fundamental roots of a nation and the law and government can not be held firm.

Gaining knowledge of the world first starts in know one's self. "The knowledge of self will help carry the understanding of what surrounds us" (this is written in Korean, I am not sure if I got it right.)  The law of man is an entity which contains 3 spirits, is explained by the theory of great circle.  The spirit of Creation becomes our character.  The spirit of education becomes our determination.  And the spirit of order becomes our soul.  That is why only human is the most elite and most noble of all the creations.

Therefore character, determination and soul is not present by chance.  The three spirits belongs to god.  They share the same physical being with the universe and all of creations.  And they are invisible but everlasting like the heart, chi and body.  Because feelings, breathe, and touch doesn't exist by chance.

Handan is our main ancestor. He was cherished by all the nations for his deeds, even cherished by all of heaven, earth, and people, his philosophy cultured our people. 

Oh, the sorrow of how Fuyu (ancent Korean nation) forgotten our own ways, that allowed the Han Chinese entered Fu-yu.  Koryo forgotten our own ways, that allowed the Mongolians to enter Koryo.  If at the beginning we have set out what was ours, then Fuyu would have Fuyu's ways and the Han Chinese will be their own and not interfere with Fuyu.  Then Koryo would have Koryo Fuyu's ways and the Mongolians will be their own and not interfere with Koryo.  It is because our nation did not have our own history that is why it has lost its shape and soul.  How do we find our nation?  Nation with history, then its shape and soul will be.

All right, if any mistakes are found, please kindly correct me.  This is actually a really beautiful classical chinese writting.  But like all clasical writtings, it is long and has parts hard to translate.



Edited by hansioux
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 22:02

"Which historical sources?"

Shi Ji, it doesn't mention any connection between the Dong Yi and the Chosun, Chosun's existence prior to the first mellenium b.c. itself is doubful since no contemporary Shang records ever mention that state, and no source after wards until the a.d. era mentions Tanggun.

 

 

"Garimto(official language of Koreans in Old Choson- reintroduced by King Sejong with some improvement): "

 

What does this have anything to do with civilization in 5000 b.c.? This passage is written in new chosun. There is yet any prove that writting existed in Korea back in 5000 b.c.

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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 22:25
Originally posted by warhead

"Which historical sources?"

Shi Ji, it doesn't mention any connection between the Dong Yi and the Chosun, Chosun's existence prior to the first mellenium b.c. itself is doubful since no contemporary Shang records ever mention that state, and no source after wards until the a.d. era mentions Tanggun.

"Garimto(official language of Koreans in Old Choson- reintroduced by King Sejong with some improvement): "

What does this have anything to do with civilization in 5000 b.c.? This passage is written in new chosun. There is yet any prove that writting existed in Korea back in 5000 b.c.

 

Well, vO Shiji written just shortly before Christ.  It is already a long time after one mellenium b.c. no?  But first mellenium b.c. falls in the P Zhou dynasty era.  I have read that the Coreans (this is their name before the Japanese changed it) claimes their history is longer than the Chinese.  In Shang dynasty they didn't mention the existance of A Cho-san.  But the Shang people sure did mention the Fi Dong-Yi.  In fact the Shang dynasty is actually form by people with Yi origins.  However it still had many wars with the Dong-Yi many times over its rule.

If there's ancient writings in Corea, I wouldn't be suprised.  But they still need prove.  I mean, even the Chinese can only prove its writing dating back to the Shang dynasty (recent archeology is finding writings dating back to the Shia dynasty).  However, they have discovered other writings back in the acient China.  Including the "Shu" writing for acient Shu culture that went entirely extinct.  Also they just made discovery of the ancient  V "Yue, a.k.a. Viet" writing somewhere arround the long river.  It is more than possible that there was writing for the Coreans.  But physical proof is needed.



Edited by hansioux
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 17:33
For Clarification, the Dongyi were definitely not aryans.  They were Dravidians...Who are people who currently reside in southern India...They are darker than what you consider an Indian to be, pertaining to the theory that the aryans met "darker peoples".  Now when the Arayans invaded the Dravidians fled in two directions, some to the south, and some to the east.  ONe starts to see the Dongyi, dravidians, in records right about the time that the Aryans invaded.  So no the Dongyi are not aryans, but are actually dravidians fleeing aryans...hope that clears up some of the misunderstanding.
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  Quote demon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 08:15

There is yet any prove that writting existed in Korea back in 5000 b.c.

I'll start off a new thread in Asian section.  I'm currently gathering sources.

Grrr..
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 19:09

"They were Dravidians...Who are people who currently reside in southern India...They are darker than what you consider an Indian to be, pertaining to the theory that the aryans met "darker peoples".  Now when the Arayans invaded the Dravidians fled in two directions, some to the south, and some to the east.  ONe starts to see the Dongyi, dravidians, in records right about the time that the Aryans invaded.  So no the Dongyi are not aryans, but are actually dravidians fleeing aryans...hope that clears up some of the misunderstanding. "

 

prove it

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 20:35
all I can say is read Ssisung euro bon hanilminjok eh giwun and uri eh iruhburin yuksa rool chajasuh...but seeing as they are both written in korean me no thinks that you can...so as of now, I cannot prove it...you'll just have to take my word for it
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 23:49

Well, Donyi was in Chinese records since the earliest of time.  It is one of the four principle races that is in the make up of the core of the Han race.  If you don't want to take myth in to consideration, then Dong-Yi is in the histroy in Xia dynasty, Shan dynasty, Zhou dynasty and so on.  By the migration of these four races, I find it hard to believe these people arrived after Aryan's invaded Dravidians.

Not to say Dravidian couldn't have come to the east part of China and be called Dong-Yi.  They could have came later and occupied this land.  But by that time Chinese people have already gotten used to calling every race to the east Yi, and every race to the south Miao and Yue, every race to the west Qiang and Di, and every race in the north Hu and Rong.  Therefore these new arrivals were still refered to as Dong-Yi (Yi in the east).

Still, I mean the Aryans lived on the silk road.  They came down to India and invaded where Dravidians lived.  It would have been much easier for Aryans to also invade the east into China.  They obviously had the means of mobility.  The Dravidians on the other hand did not.  To have them move north through Aryans land is just hard to imagine.  Perhaps you would care to provide more detail from those two books and clearify the conflicts on time/means.

If these Dravidians Don-yi are considered as the ancestors of Coreans...  I sure don't see a lot of dark Indian looking Coreans out there v_v



Edited by hansioux
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 11:47
Just because they are dark now doesn't mean that they were dark back then....MOst of these theorys, perhaps I forgot to state that they were theories, come from tracing last names and language, once again, I forgot to say theory, and I can't really prove it because I am just starting to learn about it and it is a very new theory...and just because the Dongyi were ancestors of Koreans doesn't mean that they couldn't be ancestors of the Chinese.
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 13:26

I hope we don't take every historical reference to Dong-Yi to be the same people or the same nation.

In Xia and Shang dynasty histories along, there was more than my fingers of Yi's to the east mentioned.  i (Fong Yi), i (Huang Yi)... so on.

The reason I say if they were Dravidian, then they couldn't have been the Dong-Yi before the warring states.  Because the Aryans invasion was about the same time of Shang dynasty right?

Of course Dong-Yi are both ancestors of China and Corea.  But just the earliest ones.  After Han dynasty (Actually after the West Chou dynasty) there was no more East to speak of for the Chinese empire...  So when they say Dong-Yi, they mostly meant Corea and beyond the sea after words.

However this theory is cool.  Be even better if there were more evidence.

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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 14:05
Yes it is an interesting theory...
I dug up some language similarites between Tamil and korean...it could be merely coincidental but here goes

1.  I came with you to Seoul.
Korean:  nanoon nuhrang Seoul eh watda
Tamil:  nanohm ninggaroom Seoul wandohm

2.  I love you
Korean:  Nanoon nuh rool sarang handa
Tamil:  Nanoo Nin na pritistini.

also, they think that Koreans are also related to indo Europeans

A lot of korean cities used to end with Bool
they say that this pattern is apparent in a lot of other places
I.E. Kabul, Istanbul, Liverpool
iono. think what you want to think
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  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 20:22
I do believe Corean is IE language.  But I have to say... I saw some Austronesian similarities in those two sentances XD
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  Quote Gubook Janggoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 20:39
Lol, there is supposed to be austronesian connections too!...so therefore the pure korean idea is a myth
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