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Honour Killings - the whats, hows and whys...

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  Quote Master_Blaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Honour Killings - the whats, hows and whys...
    Posted: 19-Jun-2006 at 22:19

Originally posted by Northman

Well - well....  I dont know who is brainwashed, but you seems to be in denial of simple facts.

 

What am I in denial about? I just put the issue in perspective for you.


Originally posted by Northman

If you start counting on your fingers, I'm sure you'll have to take your socks off to make a total just for one week.

 

It was a clich. I said it in order to convey to you that the actual numbers of honor killings that take place are extremely small compared to the overall populations of the cultures where the practice may be traditional.

 

Originally posted by Northman

UN have reports on 5000 of these killings every year - that is 100 pr. week, so you need the help of 4 buddies to keep track on a week.

 

I hope the UN mails these statistics to my house. I would like to inspect them for myself.

 

You know what else is interesting? That 35,000 Iraqis have perished since the beginning of the invasion of their country. That comes to almost 32 people a day and 224 per week. It would take 8 buddies to count that.

 

Originally posted by Northman

The names above are some of the women who have died in honour killings in the past four years in Scandinavia alone.

 

You named five women who may have been the victims of honor killings. As far as I am aware, there is a substantial population of Middle Easterners and Indians in Western Europe and one-half of them would be female and all you have are the names of five women? That would imply that the practice is not common in any part of Europe.

 

Originally posted by Northman

However, I didnt start this thread to discuss numbers - but to become wiser.

 

You had good intentions but you need to be more open-minded. Remember, you are a student to our history not a judge of our history.


Originally posted by Northman

In my reading up upon the issue, I was shocked to learn that there still are countries who by law, dont prosecute these crimes - in 2006?

 

No modern government allows for honor killings as far as I am aware. There are isolated communities where the practice may take place but trust me when I say that the people of these countries are just as shocked as you when they hear of such an act.

 

Originally posted by Northman

I'm also aware that this has happened/happens all over the world - so if there are examples from other cultures as well, it would be important to get the whole picture. 

 

It is not as common as you are making it out to be.

 

Originally posted by Northman

Please direct me to any demeaning, defaming or offensive posts I have made towards any religion or etnic group - be it in this thread or throughout AE, and I will make apology for each and everyone of them.

I don't have time to go through all your posts. The fact is that some others and I may have been offended by some of your comments whether your intentions were malicious or not is up for debate. We should all be more careful about the things we say lest we unwittingly offend another person. We are all human beings and as such, we react emotionally to different things. What you may find offensive I may not, and vice versa, so great care must be taken into consideration when debating sensitive issues.

 

Originally posted by Northman

Just for the sake of it - will you do the same?  

 

I am a man of conviction. If I have wronged without cause, then yes, I shall. If I have wronged where I felt it to be just then I may not. 

 

Originally posted by mamikon

@ Master Blaster

 

@ mamikon

Originally posted by mamikon

Did I say that honor killings are prevalent in some groups.

 

It was insinuated.

 

Originally posted by mamikon

On the contrary I said, that to my knowledge according to Islamic law, killing one's spouse is forbidden (i may be wrong, does anyone know the laws well?)


Murder is unacceptable under Sharia Law.


Originally posted by mamikon

why is it that when anything "bad" comes up on the middle east, everyone jsut blames western media and its brainwashing qualities.
 

The Western media is inherently biased against the Middle East. It's a simple fact. You have felt threatened by us since the Moorish conquest of the Iberian Peninsula and the Turkish threat on your eastern borders.

 

Originally posted by mamikon

I am perfectly fit to decide which news are to brainwash and which are, well, news.

 

Then why not afford us the same respect? We too are perfectly fit enough to decide which of our traditions to keep and which to discard.

 

Originally posted by mamikon

When did I say they were common.

 

The very fact that a topic was made and we are discussing it implies as much.

 

Originally posted by mamikon

I said that the perpetrator must be punished, there is no excuse for murder.  
 

Let us decide how we should live our lives. Aren't there enough problems in the Western world that you would be more qualified to opine on?

 

Originally posted by mamikon

ok, when did I pinpoint on any group of people? and did I say that honor killing is widespread among those groups? I most definitely did not...

 

You didn't have to. This topic has anti-Islam written all over it. Honor killings are a problem in Muslim, Indian, Chinese, and many other societies. If you're not from these cultures, then you dont have a right to judge them in accordance with Western principles.

 

bg_turk:

 

I greatly appreciated your insight Muslim brother. Your posts were very informative, unbiased, and accurate. I enjoyed reading them.

 

Mazier:

 

Must you always put a spin on something just to badmouth the great religion of Islam?

 
Once and for all I would like to say to everyone here that Shariat-e-Mohammed (the "Law of Mohammed") opposes the killing of women.


Edited by Master_Blaster - 19-Jun-2006 at 22:20
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 09:50
The Jury found them all guilty.

History of Justice is being written in this case, where the 18 year old Ghazala Khan was shot to death by her big brother in September 2005.
 
The brother and 8 others who didnt pull the trigger are found guilty.
This will be the first time in Denmark, where a group is convicted for a homocide they actually didnt commit directly themselves.

This is not in the international news yet - so you get it first hand.
 
The sentences will be announced tomorrow.
 


Edited by Northman - 27-Jun-2006 at 09:51
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 13:29
Originally posted by Northman

The Jury found them all guilty.
History of Justice is being written in this case, where the 18 year old Ghazala Khan was shot to death by her big brother in September 2005.


The brotherand 8 others who didnt pull the trigger are found guilty.

This will be the first time in Denmark, where a group is convicted for a homocide they actually didnt commit directly themselves.This is not in the international news yet - so you get it first hand.


Thesentences will be announced tomorrow.


    
That's great news! Justice will be served! Let's hope that, in the future, these honor killings will be totally abolished! What do you think the punishment will be for the guilty parties? I hope not just a slap on the wrist! Please keep us abreast of any significant developments! Thanks!
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 13:55
Originally posted by morticia

    
That's great news! Justice will be served! Let's hope that, in the future, these honor killings will be totally abolished! What do you think the punishment will be for the guilty parties? I hope not just a slap on the wrist! Please keep us abreast of any significant developments! Thanks!
 
In the news 15 minutes ago, they said that the frame they are facing for punishment is from 5 years to life for eight of them, whereas only one could do less time.
 
In addition, some of them will probably be expelled after doing their time.
 
I will keep you updated. Smile
 
 
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 14:16
Those punishment guidelines seem reasonable enough. Hopefully, now others will think twice before committing such heinous acts. I hope they all "fry". Thanks again & keep updating!
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  Quote Master_Blaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 20:23
morticia and Northman:
 
What you fail to understand is that no father or brother wants to murder his daughter or sister. It's almost as if they are forced to do it due to the stigma the family will face from the community.


Edited by Master_Blaster - 27-Jun-2006 at 20:24
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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2006 at 23:02
hence it is a problem of the community than of individuals? Isnt that worse...? You just basically said it is customary and commendable in muslim communities for brothers to kill their sisters...

Edited by mamikon - 27-Jun-2006 at 23:04
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 02:13
where did he say muslim?  You know  seriah is not something you can ignore, If he killed his sister, he would  be punished  with death acording to seriah.
 
So I  think, islam refused this act enough.Do you  think capital punishment is not enough?
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 04:04
Originally posted by Master_Blaster

morticia and Northman:  
What you fail to understand is that no father or brother wants to murder his daughter or sister. It's almost as if they are forced to do it due to the stigma the family will face from the community.
 
I dont think we fail to understand it, it has been said many times. But we totally refuse to accept it as an excuse to kill/murder anyone, let alone a female family member.
You dont "accept" it yourself - why dont you condemn it?
 
Let us for a moment imagine that I had no choice, nomatter the reason, but to kill my own daughter.
I can safely say, I would without hessitation kill myself instead, and I know my son would do the same, if he was obliged to kill his sister.
You dont accept it, but still you dont want us to talk about it?
Yes, we could leave it alone and let those communities in favor of these crimes continue their deeds. But when its "exported" to countries in which it IS a crime and who strongly condemn and despise such actions, I think we have a right to speak up.

If you really dont accept it, but condemn it, why was it me who chosed to start this thread? Why not you, Mila, or anyone else much closer to this tradition and affected by it?
Or - in fact - do you think its more or less OK because you understand it, and because they are "almost forced" to do it?
That way it will continue - and it WILL continue if we dont talk about it openly.
If you or anyone else feel offended because we do so, you/they have a problem.
 
If this topic, as you say, has anti-muslim written all over it, its because YOU make the connection. I only address the crimes as related to old traditions happening in many communities - and not related to any specific religion. 
Women are abused in many ways all over the world for likewise many reasons, and we should fight that when we meet it.
 


Edited by Northman - 28-Jun-2006 at 04:09
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  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 04:52
i dont think he was defending it, he was simply explaining it. as i did in my post here earlier.
 
 
its interesting how many westerners assume that Muslims dont condemn terrorism or un-islamic acts which the west think they are Islamic such as this "honour killing".
 
and we Do condimin them, the west chose to ignore that and continue talking about how we support such things. Dead
 
i guess there are things some people like to hear, and something they chose to ignore.
 
 
also there are lots of problems in the Middle east we are concerned about specially the ones created by the west, which makes us as communities become over occupied by trying to solve these problems and at the same time try to develop our systems from which we will get rid of those unacceptable acts.
 
if you are confused what problems the west might have done? the creation if Israel and the biased support to it should be a good start, the rest of the problems mostly a reaction and a follow up of the first, then Democracy ( which the west brag about and at the same time support undemocratic governments and IF people did elect in democratic way the west wont accpet whats been elected , Iraq warS ....etc.
 
 
 


Edited by azimuth - 28-Jun-2006 at 05:02
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 05:15

No Azimuth - I certainly dont assume that about all Muslims - maybe some people do.

And I'm happy to say that I pretty much run parallel with your thoughts in the rest of your post.
Isnt that really good news - and unexpected? Smile

 

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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 05:21

This morning in court, the prosecutor pleaded for 6 verdicts of lifetime: the father, the brother, 2 uncles, the aunt and the cousin.
And for the last 3 people, aiding to the crime, no less than 10 years in prison.
The aunt, the cousin and one of the last 3, are facing possible expelling for life after doing their time. 

List of the convicts:

Ghulam Abbas - 57 years - Ghazalas father. (planning and ordering the killing)

Aktar Abbas - 30 years - Ghazalas brother. (firing 6 shots - 2 bullets killed Ghazala)

Perveen Khan - 40 years - Ghazalas aunt. (decoy - used her influence to lead the couple to the scene of the killing)

Walayat Khan - 46 years - Ghazalas mothers brother (actively hunting for the victims) - married to Perveen Khan.

Anser Iqbal - 45 years - friend of Walayat Khan (aiding the aunt in her role as decoy)

Asghar Ali (the older) - 42 years - Ghazalas fathers brother. (aiding the father to plan the killing)

Naweed Sharif - 30 years - friend of the family. (driver for the brother on the mission)

Asghar Ali (the younger) - 31 years - cousin to Ghazala brother of Perveen Khan. (with the brother in the car)

Ghulam Ahmed - 36 years - friend of Ghazalas brother. (with the brother in the car - did a half-hearted attempt to leak information about the plan)

The final sentences will be announced later today.

(I will use this post to fill in the sentences later)
 

 


Edited by Northman - 28-Jun-2006 at 05:24
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 05:25
I can safely say, I would without hessitation kill myself instead, and I know my son would do the same, if he was obliged to kill his sister.
well Sometimes child or father refuse killing, I remember some suicide because of this too,  but It is not common.  just guess  reason.
 
 
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 07:04
I notice, not only in this forum, every time some one wants to talks about Islam or criticize it muslim people allege she/he knows nothing about islam, he has never read the quran, and , if they are moderate Muslims they say not all Muslims do that.
Why don't you muslims condemn honour killing, if honour killing is as you claim:
Once and for all I would like to say to everyone here that Shariat-e-Mohammed (the "Law of Mohammed") opposes the killing of women.
 
instead condemning people who kill to serve honour you are deffending islam!!! i don't understand it. Murder is murder, regardless by reason, and to say that not all muslims practicize honour killing, it still doesn't make it much better for muslims. Honour killing exists in muslim societies, this is a fact, and if all muslims do it or not this would  changes nothing.
Honour killing must be condemned from all people, muslims and non-muslims. I will be very very glad to hear from a muslim here condemning it, but this isn't happened yet.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 07:11

well,  do you  have a reading  problem?  this is  becoming boring, we said murderers deserve to capital punishment(acording to islam),  so isnt this enough condemnation? how can we  condemn it? show  us condemnation you want?  So we can learn what  is condemnation accepted  by you.

 
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 09:28
Azimuth cleary said he condemned them in his last post Clap
 
 
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 11:54
The Sentences:
 

Lifetime: Ghulam Abbas - 57 years - Ghazalas father. (planning and ordering the killing)

16 years: Aktar Abbas - 30 years - Ghazalas brother. (firing 6 shots - 2 bullets killed Ghazala)

14 years + expelled for life: Perveen Khan - 40 years - Ghazalas aunt. (decoy - used her influence to lead the couple to the scene of the killing)

16 years: Walayat Khan - 46 years - Ghazalas mothers brother (actively hunting for the victims) - married to Perveen Khan.

10 years: Anser Iqbal - 45 years - friend of Walayat Khan (aiding the aunt in her role as decoy)

16 years: Asghar Ali (the older) - 42 years - Ghazalas fathers brother. (aiding the father to plan the killing)

8 years: Naweed Sharif - 30 years - friend of the family. (driver for the brother on the mission)

14 years + expelled for life: Asghar Ali (the younger) - 31 years - cousin to Ghazala brother of Perveen Khan. (with the brother in the car)

10 years: Ghulam Ahmed - 36 years - friend of Ghazalas brother. (with the brother in the car - did a half-hearted attempt to leak information about the plan)

The duration of the Sentences were immediately appealed to Surpreme Court.
 
This is historical - not only in Denmark - that so many being convicted and sentenced for one killing.
 


Edited by Northman - 28-Jun-2006 at 12:20
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 12:41
EXCELLENT NEWS, NORTHMAN!

That's certainly indicative that Denmark will NOT condone or tolerate such "honour killings". It's a good start...now, let's wait for the Supreme Court decision. I'm sure the sentences will be reduced, but, in any event, it's a clear indication that what they did was WRONG and that there are consequences for such actions.





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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 12:59
Originally posted by Master_Blaster

morticia and Northman:







What you fail to understand is that no father or brother wants to murder his daughter or sister. It's almost as if they are forced to do it due to the stigma the family will face from the community.


No, MB, it is because we DO understand the reasons why these "honour killings" take place that we condemn them. I, as Northman also stated, would prefer to take my own life rather than take my daughters'and/or sister's life in order to appease a "community". That sort of mentality must be challenged at some point, and what better time than the present!      

btw, MB, I wish you were not always in such a contentious mood! There are many issues in many cultures which are not always pleasing to everyone, however, when it comes to actually killing a woman for society's sake, I draw the line there! You seem to always minimize these brutal and barbaric acts stating cultural differences, yet, I'm sure you don't condone such behavior as a modern man. Don't you think these people should be educated and told that such behaviour is cruel and inhumane, unlike what they've traditionally been told? Or do you think they should keep killing their women because it's been done for centuries and should remain the same? C'mon now!
    

Edited by morticia - 28-Jun-2006 at 13:00
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 13:15
Well, many of the men who commit these crimes are modern. It's also not just a problem among men as there are women who play an often significant role in organizing and even carrying out the execution of other female family members.

This is a problem of the community, whatever that community is composed of, and must be dealt with by the community. The easiest first step is to motivate those who already oppose such actions - they should be present at every sentence hearing to support the authorities and demonstrate, to the community, that a number of people aren't asking families to kill their women to protect family honor.

Families who do so, as 'collective punishment' as it might sound, must be outcasted from the community. People must refuse to shop at their businesses, refuse to attend their weddings, refuse to visit their homes. They must be made to truly feel the loss of respect they've earned and it must be to such a degree that it serves as a lesson to other families.

Beyond that, they should tackle it as you would any other societal ill - through education.
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