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The Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)
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Kapikulu View Drop Down
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)
    Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 06:37
Originally posted by Nestorian

The decisive battles lost to the Seljuks distorts the Byzantine ability to respond to light cavalry archer attacks. 2 decisive battles only show us 2 decisive battles but not the overall picture of how Byzantium fares against such armies. Byzantium has tactics against such armies and when followed correctly, usually results in a good result.

 
Can I have some examples of those good results please?I just wonder and wanna learn more.
 
Originally posted by Nestorian

Manzikert: The disintegration of the Byzantine army came before the Seljuks even attacked the main body of the army. Treachery and the inexperience of the army led to the belief that the Emperor was dead. Nothing disintegrates an army quicker than the idea of the leader's death.

 
Partially also caused by Turkic mercenaries in Byzantine army like Pecheneks changing sides during the warWink
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Posts: 817 		  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 01:37

Byzantium usually defeated the Nomads when they tried to seige Constantinople,and they counterattacked .Most other times they used other tribes to help match the mobilty of nomads.They used the Cumans to crush the Pecheneges etc.

A great battle they won was vs the invading armies of Kieven Rus,and nomad allies.The byzantines lure the pechenges back into an ambush.
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Posts: 161 		  Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Sep-2006 at 11:26
Hi Kapikulu Big smile
 
In my opinion, the best examples of horse archers over the Byzantines was the battle of Dazimon during the reign of Emperor Theophilos in the 9th century. Despite the Arabs being outnumbered by 10,000, they had in their midst a large contingent of expert Turkish cavalry archers who caused havoc in the Byzantine army and had actually surrounded the Byzantine Emperor's regiment in the centre (similar to Manzikert). However, considering how Byzantine tactics worked, reinforcements broke through and rescued the Emperor from capture although the casualities were horrendous!!
 
This was a pitched battle in which pure military factors were involved and the Turks were the decisive factor.
 
When I meant disintegration of the Byzantine army before Manizkert, I'm not referring to the desertion of the Ghuzzes but I'm talking on the macro-level. Years before Manzikert, the thematic system of the Byzantine empire was neglected by the government. Diogenes briefly revived them but the bottom line was that the Roman army by 1071 was lacklustre and poor in quality. But that is no fault of the Seljuks that they faced a poor army on that fateful day, they can only fight what is presented before them and they exploited it skillfully. Clap
 
I like the chivalric conduct of Alp Arslan towards Romanus Diogenes, it is a fine example of Turkish chivalric conduct and respectful conduct between sovereigns. It something I am very impressed by till this day. Clap
 
But I still weep over Manzikert Cry hehehe
 
We have a Turkish doctorate candidate working on our modification of MTW2. Expect exciting things my Turkish friend Big smile
 
 
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2006 at 19:07
Originally posted by BigL

Byzantium usually defeated the Nomads when they tried to seige Constantinople,and they counterattacked .

 
Byzantium's huge double walls and defences has a major part in that rather than effectivity of Byzantine counterattacks on the weary enemies without siege weapons.
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 11:40
Well, but the point stays. And I think it is a little... hmmh.. interesting to call Pechenegs 'Turkish mercenaries'... this would mean that either Pechenegs were employed by Turks to fight and retreat; or that Pechenegs were Turkish and mercenaries.
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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 12:26
Originally posted by rider

Well, but the point stays. And I think it is a little... hmmh.. interesting to call Pechenegs 'Turkish mercenaries'... this would mean that either Pechenegs were employed by Turks to fight and retreat; or that Pechenegs were Turkish and mercenaries.
 
Not "Turkish mercenaries", Turkic mercenaries...These two are different terms.
 
Pechenegs are a Turkic tribe, and used to serve in Byzantine army as mercenaries...Seljuks, was another Turkic tribe belonging to Oghuzs...
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Posts: 817 		  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 18:31
The seljuks didnt really win the battle only forced the byzantines to withdrawl becasue they kept running away.
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Posts: 1800 		  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 22:27
Originally posted by Batu

yes and i still think that late byzantine army suck.20000 to 100000.come on they were 5 times larger then Seljuk army.
 
Please don't ruin this thread with your juvenile statements.  So far everyone involved has maintained a cordial and scholarly tone and we don't want to stray from it.
 
Nestorian: excellent analysis of Manzikert and Myriokephalon.  Very well-said.
 
Sorry about the brevity of my reply.  Fall semester just started again and I already have a ton of work to do.  I will be checking back periodically and posting when I can.  Please keep this thread going because I am definitely reading everything.  I will post my thoughts on the late Trapezuntine military soon.
 
Late Byzantine Military
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 11:09
Following Manzikert, until Myriokefalon, the Byzantine army pushed back the Seljuks winning many battles (many more than they lost), something that shows that indeed the Byzantines had the ability and the tactics to defeat a light army like the seljuk. The battle at Myriokefalon was also not lost due to the horse archers, but to bad tactics of the byzantine. And in fact, the Myriokefalon battle ended with a tactical withdrawal, beacause the byzantines had lost their siege equipment, that would enable them to take Iconion.

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Posts: 1914 		  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 13:46
Originally posted by xristar

Following Manzikert, until Myriokefalon, the Byzantine army pushed back the Seljuks winning many battles (many more than they lost), something that shows that indeed the Byzantines had the ability and the tactics to defeat a light army like the seljuk.
 
It was more because of Crusades rather than Byzantines' pushback...
 
Let's go back to 1095...When the first Crusade began...Seljuk Turks had come till Nicaea(İznik), which is not more than 100 km to Constantinople...And even designated it as their capital cities.
 
Then only the Crusades were able to stop them at that time...Oh and then the division of Greater Seljuk Empire into four, and the recent fight for domination between those four divided Seljuk states.
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Posts: 1028 		  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2006 at 04:03
THe byzantines had their own victories too.

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Posts: 109 		  Quote Datuna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 06:27
Originally posted by Nestorian

As far as the sources indicate, the Georgians did not conquer Trebizond. But as mercenaries/allies under the BYZANTINE leadership of Andronicus' grandsons David and Alexius they did. The fact that Georgian cultural and political influence was negligible and not as penetrative means that the Trapezuntines was just a splinter Byzantine microcosm and not so much a state establshed by Georgians as previously claimed. Moreover, the Trapezuntines were vassals of other powers like the Mongols and Turks who did indeed have a great influence on them in terms of their military equipment and apparel and but not so much by Georgian military norms.
 
I'd say that despite their proximity to each other and their blood relations, they werent exactly "close".
 
Plz read this and enjoy the map!
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Posts: 161 		  Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 23:08
Yes, I've read the article before.
 
"Helping to found" is not the same as "founding" the Trapezuntine empire. It only means she played a part, but not the main part which was taken by the Komnenoi brothers. Moreover, vassalage to the Georgians was brief as it came under Seljukid suzerainty after a few decades.
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Posts: 265 		  Quote Desimir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Sep-2006 at 16:09
Hey guys i dont know why but you didn't mention bulgarians anywhere.Our history is connected with Byzantine.There were many battles in which we defeated romans.For example The Battle for Acheloi where 60000 bulgarian army crushed 65000 byzantine army.Only 1000-2000 byzantine soldiers managed to escape.And there are many more battles that bulgarians won.We help byzantines to defeat Arabs in early 8th century Constantinople siege,we defeated Latins(crusaders}in the battle for Odrin.
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Posts: 1929 		  Quote Aster Thrax Eupator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 10:23
...But Trajan campagained against the Dacians and defeated them
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Posts: 161 		  Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Sep-2006 at 10:34
Quote]The Battle for Acheloi where 60000 bulgarian army crushed 65000 byzantine army[/QUOTE]
 
Thats impossible, that would have been over half of the Byzantine army in that time period and no Byzantine Emperor with common sense would weaken his frontiers by using more than 50% of his entire army in one battle.
 
Heck, even the Cretan expedition led by Nikephoros Phokas was 50,000 men even then that was serious enough to deplete their eastern frontier (at a time when the Byzantine army was bigger than the time of the battle of Anchialus) so I doubt that 65,000 is correct.
 
However, I have no doubt that it was Bulgar victory.
 
Although I doubt Symeon was a great Khan...he lost the Bulgar lands north of the Danube and his only important conquest, Serbia, was lost immediately. His gains from the Byzantines were not that important but he did inflict frightful casualties on the Byzantines but to no avail as they quickly recovered under the Lekapeni
 
I think Khan Boris was the best leader alongside Khan Krum.
 
Why do I call Symeon Khan instead of Tsar?...Because his son Peter was recognised as Tsar by the Byzantines who did not recognise Symeon as Tsar.
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Posts: 817 		  Quote BigL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 00:40
Originally posted by Earl Aster

...But Trajan campagained against the Dacians and defeated them
 
Yea with 160,000 legionarres Confused
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Posts: 265 		  Quote Desimir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 15:11
Symeon and Boris werent khans.Their titles were Kniaz(something like prince-prince of Monaco).And it seems that you didnt know anything from bulgarian history.Boris was a poor commander but he made bulgars christians,he accepted disciples of Cyril and Metodius.Simeon never lost lands north of danube and serbia was part of bulgarian kingdom since the death of Simeon.It is true that Peter,son of simeon was recognised by byzantine as a tsar,but dont forget that simeon was a pretendent for constantinople throne.
    
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Posts: 265 		  Quote Desimir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 15:13
May be you mean Simeon's son Peter.He really lost half of bulgarian lands.
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Posts: 265 		  Quote Desimir Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 20:27
Here you will find more about boris,simeon and peter.
www.bulgaria.com/history/bulgaria/predom.html
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