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The Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)

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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)
    Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 15:18
Possible. The Vigla means Watch but did it guard the Theodosian Walls? Will check:
 
Cavalry tagmata:
 
the Scholae         Imperial Guard
the Excubitores   
the Vigla              police forces
the Hikanatoi       
 
Infantry tagmata:
 
the Numeroi                     police forces
the Optimatoi                  
the Tagma ton Teikhon    Theodosian Walls
 
 
A short overview and it shows that the Tagma ton Teikhon would have been correct. 'Teikhon' translates as 'Walls' and 'Vigla' as 'numbers'.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 20:01
Originally posted by rider

For you to be successful and gain from our knowledge? NEVER!!!
 
Sorry, just kidding, happily would continue.
 
Ha ha.  Seriously, I really have enjoyed discussing this stuff with you guys.  I really don't care what level of intellectualism the replies are on, or if people just ask questions; both stimulate discussion.  I just want more people to come in and discuss!  Smile 
 
There are some members who are quite knowledgable in Byzantine stuff.  Digenis (I wish he would frequent this thread more often), BlindOne, Heraclius (what happened to him?), Constantine XI (maybe his mod. duties are to time-consuming), Byzanz, Jazz, and Herschel have all posted in Byzantine threads before.  It was cool having Gundamor and Menumorut posting in here in the beginning.  Where did they go?
 
Originally posted by rider

Now, maybe the losing of skutatoi as units would yet come from the many newer 'western-like' mercenaries and all money going to them. So financial issues? This is my only thought at this moment.
 
I am sure conservatism had something to do with it.  But conservatism did not stifle all Byzantine attempts at updating their army and society.  Lack of funds (especially ready cash) was probably the biggest detriment, like you pointed out.
 
I would have been awesome to see the Byzantines in the late period take the skutatoi and bring them up to date with the latest in spear-armed tactics and armament.  By this I mean model them after the Swiss pikemen, perhaps.  In this they could also include some antique elements (as they were apt to doing), such as from the Macedonian pike-hoplites of Philip II.  This combination would have been a tour-de-forceClap
 
Originally posted by rider

It seems that in the short existence of Nicaea, the Nicaeans forgot all previous Roman units (but not Roman tactics). If I am correct, then the pre-1204 Constantinople contained the Tagmata units of Scholae, Arithmos, Numeri, the Theodosian Walls (forgot the Greek name), Optimoi, Vigla.... were they ever used in the Late Empire?
 
I think most of these groups either became parade units or died out all together by the late period.  Some of their functions were commuted to other military units or were sought out in mercenaries.  Pseudo-Kodinos, in his list of Palaiologan court titles, mentions the Droungarios of the Vigla.  In former times this title went to the chief of the guards of the Theodosian Walls, like Sikander pointed out.
 
Originally posted by Sikander

(...)but although the Romans were conservative, they were also very fast to adopt new ways. The Pisanello's drawings show that quite clearly: the Emperor's retinue dressed and equipped themselves like Turks, not like "tradicional" Romans.
 
Yes, I agree.  Conservative in some things but practical when they had to be.  The figures in Giamberti's painting do look almost indistinguishable from the Turks.  The only difference is that the Trapezuntines have the tall Byzantine hats (the ones Clavijo described as being trimmed with marten fur and feathers) and the Ottomans have turbans.
 
Let me get a little imaginative here for a moment.  What if, in a sudden rush of nostalgia and practicality, the Trapezuntines decided to go back to their roots.  The Grand Komnenos orders the commanders to be trained using the old Roman and early Byzantine taktika.  They would be required to instill discipline and reform the army using Vegetius and Maurice's handbooks as guidelines.  The blacksmiths are ordered to make klibania and splint vambraces for the infantry.  Perhaps some infantry (elite?) would be armored in lorica segmentata, which are crafted using new metal technology, but Roman in design.  Seeing the advantage in having quick, lightly armed horse archers to fight Trebizond's worst enemy, the Ottomans, the Grand Komnenos keeps these in tact.  Finally, from the gunpowder weapons brought by the Genoese, some of the new Trapezuntine infantry are armed with handguns/arqebuses and the walls are outfitted for cannon emplacements.  How would the "new" army of Trebizond do in battle?  Big smile 
 
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 04:03
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

There are some members who are quite knowledgable in Byzantine stuff.  Digenis (I wish he would frequent this thread more often), BlindOne, Heraclius (what happened to him?), Constantine XI (maybe his mod. duties are to time-consuming), Byzanz, Jazz, and Herschel have all posted in Byzantine threads before.  It was cool having Gundamor and Menumorut posting in here in the beginning.  Where did they go?
 
Quite possible is that many people forget or lose interest in this topic and so go away, fade into the dimensions of history.
 
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

I think most of these groups either became parade units or died out all together by the late period.  Some of their functions were commuted to other military units or were sought out in mercenaries.  Pseudo-Kodinos, in his list of Palaiologan court titles, mentions the Droungarios of the Vigla.  In former times this title went to the chief of the guards of the Theodosian Walls, like Sikander pointed out.
 
Are you sure? Vigla couldn't be at the Walls. This goes heavily against my previous post that the Tagma ton Teikhon was there.
 
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

How would the "new" army of Trebizond do in battle?
 
Defeat all Byzantine (non-mercenary) forces in a swift to be itself defeated by ten times more Turks...
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  Quote BlindOne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 10:01
Originally posted by rider

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

There are some members who are quite knowledgable in Byzantine stuff.  Digenis (I wish he would frequent this thread more often), BlindOne, Heraclius (what happened to him?), Constantine XI (maybe his mod. duties are to time-consuming), Byzanz, Jazz, and Herschel have all posted in Byzantine threads before.  It was cool having Gundamor and Menumorut posting in here in the beginning.  Where did they go?
 
Quite possible is that many people forget or lose interest in this topic and so go away, fade into the dimensions of history.
 
 Well it is true that i have stopped  to post in AE for a while because of univercity studies. Anyway all though i am not very active i still read your post and when i find some time to read again my history books ( i am not a historian expert as you guysSmile) i will respond.
 PS: Byzantine emperor thank you for the PM Smile.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 15:14
Originally posted by rider

Quite possible is that many people forget or lose interest in this topic and so go away, fade into the dimensions of history.
 
Man, that is a depressing way to look at it!  I hope people haven't lost interest in this thread and have been ignoring it as a result.
 
We have kept the discussion high on an intellectual level, provided a lot of interesting details, but not to the extent that no one except professional Byzantine historians (which none of us are) could interpret and reply to.
 
Let me reiterate that I do not consider myself to be an expert on Byzantium.  I am still learning and reading all the time.  I have a long way to go.  I am still working on my Masters degree so I am not a professional historian.  Above all else, I really enjoy studying Byzantium and its armies and love discussing it with other people who are interested.  That is why I am a member of AE!  Smile
 
Originally posted by rider

Are you sure? Vigla couldn't be at the Walls. This goes heavily against my previous post that the Tagma ton Teikhon was there.
 
I will have to look up the word in my dictionaries.  The word vigla pretty much means "the watch" in Latin and in Greek.  There might be some alternative definitions, however.
 
Originally posted by BlindOne

Well it is true that i have stopped  to post in AE for a while because of univercity studies. Anyway all though i am not very active i still read your post and when i find some time to read again my history books ( i am not a historian expert as you guysSmile) i will respond.
 PS: Byzantine emperor thank you for the PM Smile.
 
I totally understand!  My studies have occupied the vast majority of my time lately too.  Hopefully in the next couple of weeks this will change.
 
Thanks for at least reading the posts here when you have time.  We are looking forward to your insights when you have the time to post.  Remember, we are all Byzantine-history fans here, not stuffy arrogant experts!  LOL
 
Originally posted by rider

Defeat all Byzantine (non-mercenary) forces in a swift to be itself defeated by ten times more Turks...
 
I think revamping the military along the lines I mentioned would at least enable the Trapezuntines to defend better and possibly to meet the Ottomans on the field in smale-scale sortees.  Refurbished walls and artillery emplacements would definitely give the Trapezuntines a fighting chance.  The defenders of Constantinople were able to defend for a while and they were surely not well prepared!
 
How about on an economic and intellectual level; would Trebizond have been able to realistically carry out these reforms?  I believe they were wealthier than their counterparts in Constantinople and the Morea.
 
For people new to this discussion, rider and I are referring to this statement I made above:
 
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Let me get a little imaginative here for a moment.  What if, in a sudden rush of nostalgia and practicality, the Trapezuntines decided to go back to their roots.  The Grand Komnenos orders the commanders to be trained using the old Roman and early Byzantine taktika.  They would be required to instill discipline and reform the army using Vegetius and Maurice's handbooks as guidelines.  The blacksmiths are ordered to make klibania and splint vambraces for the infantry.  Perhaps some infantry (elite?) would be armored in lorica segmentata, which are crafted using new metal technology, but Roman in design.  Seeing the advantage in having quick, lightly armed horse archers to fight Trebizond's worst enemy, the Ottomans, the Grand Komnenos keeps these in tact.  Finally, from the gunpowder weapons brought by the Genoese, some of the new Trapezuntine infantry are armed with handguns/arqebuses and the walls are outfitted for cannon emplacements.  How would the "new" army of Trebizond do in battle?
 
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 19:50
I was more thinking that 'vigla' means 'watchmen' and 'teikhon' is for 'walls'. Then from it would come the assignments of police and guarding the Walls.
 
Economic: The Trapezuntines clearly might have had a connection with Georgia (peaceful one) and with the Kievan Rus (don't believe in it) although their navy was indeed small (and you had no place to go to either). So the most of their economic gain had to come from Georgia or Roman Empire. I believe that the connections with Bulgaria and Rus states can be left out.
 
Although I know their approximate territories, I have no idea of their territories. I believe that the mountains might have contained some iron ore and maybe even bronze but totally possible that there were no valuable (then valuable) resources. No idea of the fields and farmers. Although it is possible that fishing became an important business.
 
 
This post is extremely lousy in everything, sorry; my only excuse is that it is 3 AM in Estonia and I have been up from 8 AM or so...
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 00:56
Originally posted by rider

I was more thinking that 'vigla' means 'watchmen' and 'teikhon' is for 'walls'. Then from it would come the assignments of police and guarding the Walls.
 
Okay, I see what you mean now.  Yes, you are correct, the vigla and teichon mean "the watch" and "wall" respectively.  And the group you described guarded the walls in the early and middle Byzantine periods.  The Droungarios of the Vigla commanded the guards.  There might be something comparable in the late period; I will have to check.  I do know that the Droungarios of the Vigla became a court title in the late period and probably lost its original function as a lot of functionary titles did.
 
Originally posted by rider

Economic: The Trapezuntines clearly might have had a connection with Georgia (peaceful one) and with the Kievan Rus (don't believe in it) although their navy was indeed small (and you had no place to go to either). So the most of their economic gain had to come from Georgia or Roman Empire. I believe that the connections with Bulgaria and Rus states can be left out.
 
Was the medieval kingdom of Georgia landlocked?  If it was, I doubt there was much trading going on between it and Trebizond.  The Rus had access to the Eastern European rivers and into the Black Sea.  They were probably a good trading partner if they did indeed have a connection with Trebizond.  Who here at AE could inform us about this?  I know BigL started a thread about the Rus, perhaps he knows.  Other than that, they are left with the Genoese, who did have contacts in the Black Sea area and with Trebizond.  As Sikander pointed out, the Trapezuntines were able to acquire firearms from the Genoese.
 
Originally posted by rider

Although I know their approximate territories, I have no idea of their territories. I believe that the mountains might have contained some iron ore and maybe even bronze but totally possible that there were no valuable (then valuable) resources. No idea of the fields and farmers. Although it is possible that fishing became an important business.
 
Good point.  We need to find out if there was a source of precious metals in the mountainous area surrounding Trebizond and who had control over it, of course.  If Trebizond did not have access to the mines, the metals would probably need to be imported.  This could be very costly, especially if it was done over land.  Also, I wonder if Trebizond had competent native blacksmiths and technicians who could do something with the metals at this time?
 
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 02:42
Pretty certain is that everyone had native metalsmiths. The buying of such persons into your state might be very costly as such skills were difficult to learn.
 
I just remembered my Periodical Historical Atlas' Demo that I have. Will check for the borders of Trebizond and Georgia. I shall have them uploaded to Photobucket very soon.
 
Meanwhile, I may question:
 
The Droungarios of the Vigla
 
You are sure? It seems that my mind works against it.
 
Are you sure there wasn't a Domestikos of the Vigla just as there was the Domestikos of the Scholae (which later on became an important title).
 
Reconsidering, you are correct. The Arithmos (or Vigla) had a Droungarious as the head, but it was the only unit. Damned names, Arithmos and Vigla: make me confused. I personally prefer Arithmos... sounds cooler.
 
 
Meanwhile, is it possible for us to make certain which Emperors created these tagmata. Nikephoros I created the Hikanatoi and Constantine the Great created the Scholae but who were the others?
 
Trebizond in 1300:
 
 
Trebizond in 1400:
 
 
the Western Part of Trebizond in 1300:
 
 
the Eastern Part of Trebizond in 1300:
 
 
 
These thumbnails SHOULD direct you to larger images. Hopefully they work.
 
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 18:19
Originally posted by rider

Pretty certain is that everyone had native metalsmiths. The buying of such persons into your state might be very costly as such skills were difficult to learn.
 
Do you know of any sources that tell of Trapezuntine blacksmiths?  Please post anything that you find.  I will have to do some searching; there are some sources that might provide some clues.
 
Originally posted by rider

Meanwhile, I may question:
 
The Droungarios of the Vigla
 
You are sure? It seems that my mind works against it.
 
Are you sure there wasn't a Domestikos of the Vigla just as there was the Domestikos of the Scholae (which later on became an important title).
 
Reconsidering, you are correct. The Arithmos (or Vigla) had a Droungarious as the head, but it was the only unit. Damned names, Arithmos and Vigla: make me confused. I personally prefer Arithmos... sounds cooler.
 
I have come across the specific title of "Droungarios of the Vigla" in the primary sources that I have been working with.  It appears in Pseudo-Kodinos' list of titles and in some of the fiscal documents of the Athonite monasteries.
 
Domestikos was still used in the late period as a title for the second in command and the right hand man of the emperor.  He was a general and commanded the campaign army.
 
Originally posted by rider

Meanwhile, is it possible for us to make certain which Emperors created these tagmata. Nikephoros I created the Hikanatoi and Constantine the Great created the Scholae but who were the others?
 
Which "other tagmata" are you referring to?  Please clarify.
 
Rider, thanks for the maps of Trebizond.  It looks like Georgia was landlocked for a good part of the 14th century.  Then its borders moved out to the Black Sea littoral during the 15th century.  I wonder if Georgia did this by treaty or conquest?  Perhaps the kingdom of Georgia did trade with Trebizond in the 15th century.  I would like to know if there were Georgian mercenaries serving Trebizond in the 14th and 15th centuries.
 
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 18:51
This is very possible that such mercenaries served the Empire. After all, the Georgians fought the Turks too, and they were sometimes quite successful.
 
other tagmata
 
I am talking of the Arithmos/Vigla, tagma ton Teikhon, Numeroi, Optimatoi...
 
Why do you exclude landlocked trades? If there were borders then trading by land could have been a much better solution. Not very fast but certain.
 
Do you know of any sources that tell of Trapezuntine blacksmiths?.
 
No, I don't. I was just talking about my overall experience in Medieval and Imperial states. It would be logical to assume that such connections exist in Trebizond too.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 19:04
Originally posted by rider

I am talking of the Arithmos/Vigla, tagma ton Teikhon, Numeroi, Optimatoi...
 
Ok, I will have to check this out.  Treadgold and Haldon probably have something to say about the origin of these tagmata units in their army surveys.
 
Originally posted by rider

Why do you exclude landlocked trades? If there were borders then trading by land could have been a much better solution. Not very fast but certain.
 
I was taking into account the fact that overland trade was quite expensive as compared to trade by ship.  Maybe Georgia had access to some rivers in the area?
 
I PM'd and invited some Georgians here at AE to help us out with our discussion on Trebizond and Georgia.  Hopefully they will respond.
 
Quite frankly, I am a bit discouraged that the Byzantinists and people with even an inkling of an interest in Byzantium and medieval warfare here at AE have been ignoring this thread.  I know we all have commitments and lives outside of cyberspace; I definitely do with grad school and all, but the least they could do is drop by an interact!  Maybe this will change.
 
Should I start making individual threads on the topics we are discussing in here?
 
Originally posted by rider

No, I don't. I was just talking about my overall experience in Medieval and Imperial states. It would be logical to assume that such connections exist in Trebizond too.
 
If you find anything in the reading that you are doing, please let us know!  A possible connection is enough to start investigating. Smile
 
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 19:26
I will tell you all everything I find out.
 
Should I start making individual threads on the topics we are discussing in here?
 
Never, I would rename this topic into Byzantine Military so we could very easily discuss everything here. If people want to come they will, I am sure many of them check here often but find nothing to contribute. Many of the Byzantine interestees are Mods or Global Mods and so have more important things to do.
 
overland trade was quite expensive as compared to trade by ship
 
But the Roman Empire did trade with the Cilician Armenia in the centuries before, is it true? And by land if I am not completely mistaken?
 
Trades by land were very popular in the Northern European areas (during winter).
 
Rivers of Georgia:
almost none go into the Black Sea, but the Google Map showed a Mtkvari River.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 23:18
I would like to introduce discussion about the Byzantine Empire's ability to sustain its military and extravegant diplomacy - its two pronged way of ensuring security - in the aftermath of the loss of naval capabilities and key port cities following 1204. In an earlier thread, I concluded that the organisation suggestes by Plethon, though very admirable, was not viable thanks to the Venetian grip over the port cities of the Pelopennesos. This grip extended right around the former Byzantine mercantile territories, incorporating key islands such as Euboea and Crete also.

While in the aftermath of 1261, Michael VIII and the Genoese held a degree of dominance in parts of the Aegean, this power was relinquished when Andronicus III scrapped the navy to save cash. I posit that through a gradual and pragmatic policy of consolidation, that the Byzantine could have regained the naval dominance required to launch a mercantile revival, thereby allowing them the revenies to put their armies and diplomatic paraphernalia on a sounder footing.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 16:05
Originally posted by Constantine XI

I would like to introduce discussion about the Byzantine Empire's ability to sustain its military and extravegant diplomacy - its two pronged way of ensuring security - in the aftermath of the loss of naval capabilities and key port cities following 1204. In an earlier thread, I concluded that the organisation suggestes by Plethon, though very admirable, was not viable thanks to the Venetian grip over the port cities of the Pelopennesos. This grip extended right around the former Byzantine mercantile territories, incorporating key islands such as Euboea and Crete also.
 
I have never understood why the Byzantines acquiesed to such humiliation and deprivation when they signed the series of treaties with Venice during the Komnenian period.  There was still a navy at that time (it took part in naval ventures with crusaders against Mamluks), why could they not also build up their merchant marine?  Either it was Byzantine poverty (which was not as bad as in the Palaiologan period), or the Venetians and other Italian states already had such a stranglehold on Levantine trade that it was pointless to resist.  Where did the Byzantines derive profit from these treaties?  One of the stipulations is that Byzantine customs duties were revoked; this was quite a chunk of revenue that they let slip away.

Originally posted by Constantine XI

While in the aftermath of 1261, Michael VIII and the Genoese held a degree of dominance in parts of the Aegean, this power was relinquished when Andronicus III scrapped the navy to save cash. I posit that through a gradual and pragmatic policy of consolidation, that the Byzantine could have regained the naval dominance required to launch a mercantile revival, thereby allowing them the revenies to put their armies and diplomatic paraphernalia on a sounder footing.
 
In my studies, the main reason I have come across for Andronikos II's scrapping the navy was to free up funds for hiring mercenaries.  It definitely was not needed to subsidize pronoia, since these produced incomes out of peasant taxes and charges.  Before Asia Minor was lost for good Andronikos tried to launch a fiscal reassessment of the territory to even out pronoiai and to curb abuses.  But this ended in disaster since the Anatolians thought Michael and the apographeus he sent were religious heretics; and then the whole province fell to the Seljuks.  And, after the second disaster with the Catalans, there really was no time and money to set apart for a naval revival.  I think if Andronikos II had been given the chance to revive it, he would have.
 
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 18:04
Well, it never could have regained it's former glory for it's decline was long and steady. If I remember correctly (I use that phrase very often, if you have noticed) then even the Armenian dynasty's Emperors disbanded small parts of the navy to get some money.
 
Either it was Byzantine poverty (which was not as bad as in the Palaiologan period), or the Venetians and other Italian states already had such a stranglehold on Levantine trade that it was pointless to resist.
 
The second half is more correct. The Genoese and Venetians were trading with Outremer and Muslim states in the south and so their power only grew. The Byzantines could not have resisted.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 21:26
I think the Byzantines may have had the opportunity to regain their hold on naval strength. The Italian states were not a homogeneous bloc but rather a jeolous group of rivals who could be played against one another. The Byzantines, as we have seen, certainly knew how to make that type of game work in their favour.

It boggles the mind to learn of how Isaac II Angelas actually outsourced the entire production of the Byzantine fleet to Venice. Venice's naval production was impressive. Their Arsenal, meaning the place where their navy was actually produced, built ships by floating them from one island to the next. Each island on the chain making a specific improvement or addition to the structure until the finished product came sailing out the end. Not bad eh? It is exactly like the 20th century's Fordist model of production, assembly line style.

Surely Constantinople was capable of a similar method of naval production and maintenance. With her great natural harbours, safe sea inside the Golden Horne and her large population I think it is conceivable that a similar process could have been performed on the northern shipyards of Constantinople as was performed at the Venetian Arsenal.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 22:11
Originally posted by rider

I am talking of the Arithmos/Vigla, tagma ton Teikhon, Numeroi, Optimatoi...
 
Last night I was reading in the Treaty of Offices of Pseudo-Kodinos and the titles we were talking about are listed.  He includes the Grand Droungarios of the Watch (bigla/vigla), Droungarios, Droungarios of the Fleet, and Domestikos of the Walls (teicheon).  Perhaps the Arithmos of the Walls either fell out of use or was absorbed into the title of Domestikos of the Walls.  Either way, Kodinos does not tell us if they had a specific military function in the late period.  Cry
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI

I think the Byzantines may have had the opportunity to regain their hold on naval strength. The Italian states were not a homogeneous bloc but rather a jeolous group of rivals who could be played against one another. The Byzantines, as we have seen, certainly knew how to make that type of game work in their favour.
 
You are right.  We can see the Byzantines working with the Genoese against the Venetians in the in the Italian sea wars of the late 13th and 14th century.  I think one of the main problems is that the emperors often pushed for ideological recognition of their status as the heads of Christendom and the Roman Empire in official treaties.  At this point the Italians could have cared less about Byzantine imperial ideology and probably were willing to go along with it on paper as long as they got the trading rights.  And if the Italians or anyone refused at this time, the Byzantines were unable to bring them to heel by force because of the military problems.
 
Originally posted by Constantine XI

It boggles the mind to learn of how Isaac II Angelas actually outsourced the entire production of the Byzantine fleet to Venice. Venice's naval production was impressive. Their Arsenal, meaning the place where their navy was actually produced, built ships by floating them from one island to the next. Each island on the chain making a specific improvement or addition to the structure until the finished product came sailing out the end. Not bad eh? It is exactly like the 20th century's Fordist model of production, assembly line style.
 
Wow, this is interesting!  I didn't know that this was their method of shipbuilding, basically a giant assembly line.  Yeah, the Angeloi were a sorry bunch for the most part.  Isaac II took the Komnenoi practice of trade concessions to the extreme.  One wishes that Michael VIII had come along a bit earlier.  LOL
 
I think for the most part the last hurrah for the Byzantine navy was during Michael VIII's reign.  He was the last emperor who seemed to have the resources and the good sense to tend to the navy. 
 
There is an incident where Manuel II Palaiologos seems to have raised a fleet and put it in charge of his illegitimate brother Manuel, who was given the title of Mega Duke (the "Droungarios of the Fleet" of the late period).  This fleet was successful in thwarting the investiture of Constantinople by the Ottoman prince Musa in 1411.  See John Barker, Manuel II Palaeologus, 1391-1425: A Study in Late Byzantine Statesmanship, pp. 283-285.
 
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  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 09:08
Last night I was reading in the Treaty of Offices of Pseudo-Kodinos and the titles we were talking about are listed.  He includes the Grand Droungarios of the Watch (bigla/vigla), Droungarios, Droungarios of the Fleet, and Domestikos of the Walls (teicheon).  Perhaps the Arithmos of the Walls either fell out of use or was absorbed into the title of Domestikos of the Walls.  Either way, Kodinos does not tell us if they had a specific military function in the late period.  Cry
 
Not Arithmos of the Walls, and it is not a title but another name for Vigla (and I like it much much more).
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 13:18
Originally posted by rider

Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Last night I was reading in the Treaty of Offices of Pseudo-Kodinos and the titles we were talking about are listed.  He includes the Grand Droungarios of the Watch (bigla/vigla), Droungarios, Droungarios of the Fleet, and Domestikos of the Walls (teicheon).  Perhaps the Arithmos of the Walls either fell out of use or was absorbed into the title of Domestikos of the Walls.  Either way, Kodinos does not tell us if they had a specific military function in the late period.  Cry
 
Not Arithmos of the Walls, and it is not a title but another name for Vigla (and I like it much much more).
 
I know that I mixed up the terms.  Sorry.  Arithmos is a synonym for bigla/vigla.  Anyways, this is what I found in Kodinos:  It seems that Arithmos fell out of use as a term for the watch.
 
What do you think about the discussion Constantine XI proposed and that I replied to?
 


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 16-Aug-2006 at 13:22
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  Quote Datuna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 13:44
Hope it will work!
 
Smth about Trebizond.
In the begining of 13th century trebizond was conquered by georgian queen ''Tamar" who named it as empire setting there her close relative alexy comnenos as a king. Before that georgia encluded the whole region of south caucasus, north tribes were giving tribute so Georgia needed a strong gate through the region from the west, that kingdom was trebizond
which was under georgian enfluence for over a century. During this time it blossomed just like other regions of Georgia and our relations became vital to both of us.
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