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The Late Byzantine Military (1204-1461)
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    Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 23:35
I would say 16th-17th.
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Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by xristar

I was in the local public library of Veroia, searching for some villages of the region. In a book I found pictures of saints of a local byzantine church.

What was notable was that one saint held a mace. (This comment is for what you were discussing above that no saints are holding weapons like maces and axes)

Please show us if you can!  I would like to see pictures if you can get them.


Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

What details in the picture led you to think that the man was Frankish and was wearing plate armor?  Thanks xristar, this picture sounds quite fascinating.  Please post a photograph when you are able to take one!


Of course you can easily understand this is not 14th century but rather 15th-16th

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Hello BE and all! I have finally returned after a long hiatus and I am pleased to find that discussion has not been lost without my presence ;).

What an interesting discussion on the Trapezuntine army and its dimensions! I am also frequently interested in discussions such as these. Although I do not have the resources available to me as often to look these up, I might add that I believe the numbers would have been greatly exaggerated.

History may have been written by many victors but I am curious:

Which battle are we talking about? Which players were involved? From the picture shown above, indeed the walls of Trebizond were very tall. One can easily imagine their own head being shattered by an shell from an arqebusier's rifle. Is this warfare between the Turks and Seljuks?
 
A comment was made about the numbers of troops being dramatically diminished in this time period. Was there a general population decline during this period?
Were more citizens and peasants required to continue the upkeep of a formal army?
Were there simply more armies instead of a mass force?
 
Any help on the topic would be appreciated.
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Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

Originally posted by Challenger2

Only in hard copy, I'm afraid.
 
Do you mean a photograph that you took or one from a book?  If you give me the book reference I can probably track it down.
 
 
"Armies of the Middle Ages" vol. 2 by Ian Heath. It's out of print as far as I know, but you might get lucky in Ebay, Amazon or some such site.
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Originally posted by Challenger2

Only in hard copy, I'm afraid.
 
Do you mean a photograph that you took or one from a book?  If you give me the book reference I can probably track it down.
 
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2008 at 16:17
Originally posted by byzantine emperor


Wow, I am not familiar with this manuscript.  Do you have any pictures?


Only in hard copy, I'm afraid.Unhappy
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Originally posted by Alkiviades

Extremely interesting topic. Will try and contribute more substantially than just cheering one of these days
 
Thanks very much.  Please do contribute when you get the chance.  Feel free to revive discussions from the previous pages as well.  What are your interests?
 
Originally posted by Challenger2

If you can get hold of a copy of Alex Bryers The Empire of Trebizond and the Pontos, you should find answers to your questions.
 
Yes, very good recommendation!  His first name is Anthony, I believe.  This anthology is especially good for the later period of Trebizond, 14th and 15th century, which I find quite fascinating.  It is high time for a scholar to take up this subject and publish on it.  Not much has been done, other than a couple art historical studies, on Trebizond over the past twenty years.
 
In addition to Bryer I suggest:
 
Continuity and change in late Byzantine and early Ottoman society, edited by Anthony Bryer and Heath Lowry
 
Trebizond: the last Greek empire of the Byzantine era, 1204-1461, by William Miller
 
- an old but standard work on Trebizond since nothing has been done since
 
On the empire of Nikaea, see:
 

A Byzantine government in exile; government and society under the Laskarids of Nicaea (1203-1204), by Michael Angold

 
- I'll try to check this out from the library and post some of the figures that Angold gives on the army.  What he says should be supplemented by the information in Mark Bartusis' The Late Byzantine Army: Arms and Society, 1204-1453.
 
My former advisor, Dimiter Angelov, now at the University of Birmingham UK, is working on a biography of the Nikaean emperor Theodore II Laskaris. It should be coming out in the next year or so.
 
Originally posted by Challenger2

Much later in 1460, Ludovico da Bologna stated the army was around 20,000, but there is doubt as regards the accuracy of this figure, as it might include allied contingents or just be rampant exaggeration.
 
Yes, I agree.  It is probably half of this at the most and includes sizable numbers of Georgian and Turkish mercenaries.  I think the Spanish traveler Clavijo provides some numbers too, but I can't remember what they are offhand.
 
Originally posted by Challenger2

As regards armour and weaponry, a figure from the Labours of the Months manuscript from he St. Eugenios monastery in Trebizond dated 1346, shows a heavy cavalryman armed with kite shield and lance very similar to earlier Byzantine representations of soldiers. As this was supposed to be part of a contemporary rural scene, its possible Imperial soldiers looked like this.
 
Wow, I am not familiar with this manuscript.  Do you have any pictures?
 
Originally posted by Challenger2

Later by the mid 15th century Trebizond soldiers looked more like Turks in terms of arms and equipment.
 
Maybe, although I think we should be cautious about this.  There was undoubedly an influence from the Turks on military dress and tactics, but it is hard to judge the extent.  Please see our discussion and pictures on this page:
 
 
 
The cassone box painted by the Florentine artist Giamberti of the conquest of Trebizond makes the Trapezuntine cavalry almost indistinguishable from the attacking Turks.  However, it is difficult to tell how accurate the painting is; it could be quite romanticized or Orientalized.


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 26-Feb-2008 at 03:46
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2008 at 22:04
Originally posted by Challenger2

Originally posted by Justinian

I read through the entire thread, took a while but fascinating stuff, and didn't see this come up so here is a question-- do we have any idea the manpower available to the individual successors like Nicaea and Trebizond after the conquest by the crusaders in 1204?  A follow up to that would be do we know the makeup of their armies; percentage of cavalry, archers, etc.?  My knowledge of the military during the late period is negligable so I don't have much to add to this, plenty to ask though.

If this is out of place my apologies.


If you can get hold of a copy of Alex Bryers The Empire of Trebizond and the Pontos, you should find answers to your questions.

In a nutshell, the Empire was divided into seven Banda [Trikomia, Palaiomatzouka, Matzouka, Trebizond, Gemora, Sourmaina and Rhizaion, sorry for the spelling] and the Thema of Greater Lazia, each of whom provided for their own defence. Evidence for numbers is scant, but the native armed forces could not have been very large as the total populaton stayed around the 250,000 mark throughout its existence. Simon de St. Quentin says the Empire was obliged to provide the Seljuks with a contingent of 200 lances. Most 14th century armies appear to have numbered no more than a few hundred. In 1335, for example, the loss of about 400 men, depending on which account you read, in the Battle of Cheriana, was considered a major disaster.

Much later in 1460, Ludovico da Bologna stated the army was around 20,000, but there is doubt as regards the accuracy of this figure, as it might include allied contingents or just be rampant exaggeration.

As regards armour and weaponry, a figure from the Labours of the Months manuscript from he St. Eugenios monastery in Trebizond dated 1346, shows a heavy cavalryman armed with kite shield and lance very similar to earlier Byzantine representations of soldiers. As this was supposed to be part of a contemporary rural scene, its possible Imperial soldiers looked like this. Later by the mid 15th century Trebizond soldiers looked more like Turks in terms of arms and equipment. Hope this helps; I'm not an expert, I just happen to have a book on the subject.Smile

Many thanks.Smile  If one had to be an expert to post on a subject I wouldn't be posting anywhere on this forum but the tavern.LOL
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Posts: 508 		  Quote Challenger2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2008 at 17:42
Originally posted by Justinian

I read through the entire thread, took a while but fascinating stuff, and didn't see this come up so here is a question-- do we have any idea the manpower available to the individual successors like Nicaea and Trebizond after the conquest by the crusaders in 1204?  A follow up to that would be do we know the makeup of their armies; percentage of cavalry, archers, etc.?  My knowledge of the military during the late period is negligable so I don't have much to add to this, plenty to ask though.

If this is out of place my apologies.


If you can get hold of a copy of Alex Bryers The Empire of Trebizond and the Pontos, you should find answers to your questions.

In a nutshell, the Empire was divided into seven Banda [Trikomia, Palaiomatzouka, Matzouka, Trebizond, Gemora, Sourmaina and Rhizaion, sorry for the spelling] and the Thema of Greater Lazia, each of whom provided for their own defence. Evidence for numbers is scant, but the native armed forces could not have been very large as the total populaton stayed around the 250,000 mark throughout its existence. Simon de St. Quentin says the Empire was obliged to provide the Seljuks with a contingent of 200 lances. Most 14th century armies appear to have numbered no more than a few hundred. In 1335, for example, the loss of about 400 men, depending on which account you read, in the Battle of Cheriana, was considered a major disaster.

Much later in 1460, Ludovico da Bologna stated the army was around 20,000, but there is doubt as regards the accuracy of this figure, as it might include allied contingents or just be rampant exaggeration.

As regards armour and weaponry, a figure from the Labours of the Months manuscript from he St. Eugenios monastery in Trebizond dated 1346, shows a heavy cavalryman armed with kite shield and lance very similar to earlier Byzantine representations of soldiers. As this was supposed to be part of a contemporary rural scene, its possible Imperial soldiers looked like this. Later by the mid 15th century Trebizond soldiers looked more like Turks in terms of arms and equipment. Hope this helps; I'm not an expert, I just happen to have a book on the subject.Smile
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Posts: 469 		  Quote Alkiviades Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2008 at 10:38
Extremely interesting topic. Will try and contribute more substantially than just cheering one of these days Big%20smile
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Dear Saber
I have never said "linear spears extincted". But let's look at this problem in a more wider scope. "Traditional Spear" which had its long history come to an end under the name "Spear". Since its simple design is no longer suit the new developement of Armour. Pike is NOT Spear, modern schollars classify Pike in different category although we still admit it as an improvement from traditional spear. Polearms, is no longer spear, for its extension spread through axe class as well as hammer class. Thus, the name "spear" after 15th century is no longer appropriate for schollatic research because it is not specified while the diversity of its extensions increased dramatically.
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No worries, BE.  I know how that goes.
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Originally posted by Justinian

I read through the entire thread, took a while but fascinating stuff, and didn't see this come up so here is a question-- do we have any idea the manpower available to the individual successors like Nicaea and Trebizond after the conquest by the crusaders in 1204?  A follow up to that would be do we know the makeup of their armies; percentage of cavalry, archers, etc.?  My knowledge of the military during the late period is negligable so I don't have much to add to this, plenty to ask though.

If this is out of place my apologies.
 
Justinian, thanks for the reply.  I have not been ignoring your post, but have been really busy with school the past few weeks.  Please look for my response here soon. 
 
I know right now that there are hardly any numerical data or statistics for the organization of the Trapezuntine army.  This is a shame because it would be really interesting to know, especially for the later centuries.  There are some numbers for the Nikaean army, which I will have to look up.
 
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Posts: 1399 		  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Oct-2007 at 20:14

I read through the entire thread, took a while but fascinating stuff, and didn't see this come up so here is a question-- do we have any idea the manpower available to the individual successors like Nicaea and Trebizond after the conquest by the crusaders in 1204?  A follow up to that would be do we know the makeup of their armies; percentage of cavalry, archers, etc.?  My knowledge of the military during the late period is negligable so I don't have much to add to this, plenty to ask though.

If this is out of place my apologies.


Edited by Justinian - 07-Oct-2007 at 20:17
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2007 at 10:30
wow I'm really impressed by this thread, splendid topic.
Concerning Jebulu post, I don't agree with a few things.
The "linear spear" did not go into extinction. As a matter of fact, it's role has increased, and because of becoming a "specialized" weapon it become less popular. The spear reemerged as the pike, a infantry weapon which would dominate 16th century onward. Further the spear also had an impact on the elite of Western armies. The reason for increasing use of polearms, is because of the power of the simple spear. A weapon such as the polearm, combined the cutting abilities of an axe, and thrusting abilities of a spear, i.e the perfect weapon.
 
 
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Posts: 3959 		  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2007 at 22:53
I found this kewl battle scene but it hardly looks like Constantinople.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZbmqQnMnYQ&mode=related&search=
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Originally posted by Jeroen72

A question about this painting:

 
Pisanello's St. George and the Princess of Trebizond.
 
You will also notice the mounted knight figure on the right hand side of the painting.  It does not show it on this reproduction.
 
Please see the discussion we had earlier in this thread on the Trapezuntine military.  We looked at this painting among others.
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by Jeroen72

Who's the guy i marked in red?? He doesn't look very European. Is he Turkish , a Trapezuntine archer? Is he this guy??
 
It could be either.  As you can see from the earlier discussions, the retinue of John VIII Palaiologos had a heavy Ottoman influence in their style of horseback riding and the way they handled the bow (we know this from the Spanish traveller Clavijo's account).  On the other hand, it could indeed be a Turkish mercenary of some sort.  The Florentine artist Pisanello, who did the painting, cast a medallion for John VIII and the reverse shows what appears to be cavalry dressed in a Turkish manner. 
 
Trebizond, of course, was surrounded by several different Turkish mountain tribes.  So it is conceivable that Turks could have been in the Trapezuntine army and imperial guard.


Edited by Byzantine Emperor - 07-Sep-2007 at 20:25
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A question about this painting:
 
Pisanello's St. George and the Princess of Trebizond.
 
 Who's the guy i marked in red?? He doesn't look very European. Is he Turkish , a Trapezuntine archer? Is he this guy??
 
=>
 
 
What (or who) does he depict?? 
 


Edited by Jeroen72 - 07-Sep-2007 at 16:52
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Originally posted by Jubelu

Flanged-maces are able to smash the armour with excessive force of attack. It is understandable because they was designed to do so.
 
Sometimes smash damage could be just as deadly because it made the wearer unable to take off the armor.  If this happened to a helmet it could be a very ugly situation.
 
Originally posted by Jubelu

In this image, the first prototype (D6S288A), its length is 90cm which gives it an advantage in penetrating the plate armour, while the second prototype (D788A00) with a shorter length 66cm but with special design in flange could even create more terrible damage. The first prototype is sporadically found in Byzantine armies, the second ones was more available in Western Europe.
 
That Byzantine mace is nasty looking!  I wonder, have any tests been done on the damage it can inflict on Byzantine klibanion armor?
 
Originally posted by Jubelu

I would say that Allan R. William is one of the most thorough schollar that I have ever heard of. And your book is indeed a highly recommended reading for military historians. What makes these books unaccessible to students or amateurs is their price.
 
It is indeed a large and expensive book.  I borrowed it a couple times through interlibrary loan and was not disappointed.
 
Originally posted by Jubelu

I am working upon some tests that determine some formulars for plate armour in LATE 17th century. It is quite fascinating to see how Spaniards eliminated their adversary in the Battle of Cajarmaca.
 
Yes, it does sound very interesting.  Will this be a journal article or part of a book-length project?
 
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"The first prototype is sporadically found in Byzantine armies"

Is it called matzivarvoulon ? I think that Sipahis had a similar one called topuzion . I have no idea about their size, but i think that these were used by cavalry. As for the Byzantines , the katafrakts of the first rows had a kind of "skull crumblier"  but  i  think that only their edge was made from metal...

Anyway, i don't think that western European  armour was unable to provide effective protection against the Ottoman bows.I just can't imagine a  cumbersome army who bases its tactical advantage in heavy armored infantry and cavalry in combination with (probably )inferior archers in comparison to the Ottoman ones, defeating the Ottos. Don't forget that Ottomans used gunpowder widely ( maybe the main reason of the knighthood's collapse and the useless of the heavy armour, especially after the Spanish-Frankish  war  in Italy) .

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