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A Question For Paul, And Other Sword Folks
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red clay View Drop Down
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A Question For Paul, And Other Sword Folks
    Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 20:15
I was googling the other nite, looking for information to help me reply to a question about Japanese swords [Katana] and I happened to stumble into a world I did not know existed, Sword smithing and Sword enthusiasts. I know there are sword collectors and people who make reproductions[bad ones mostly] this a different level.
Until he died in the 60's my mother's father was one of the few workaday Iron Smiths left in the state. As a kid I found every chance I could to hang in his shop.  That coupled with having to take 2 years of metal smithing in college gives me more than average knowledge.  These people are serious, their knowledge and skill is top level. The forum I discovered, Sword Forum International, is as active as AE.  The people who post are for the most part active Sword smiths.  The question I guess is, why?
I understand the idea of keeping an ancient art alive and as a hand potter I understand the desire to give people a choice from the industrial work commonly sold.  This,however, goes much farther than that, also I don't see much of a major market for Swords, an M16 sort of cancels them out as an effective weapon.  So, what is the attraction?  Hand forging takes strength, Skill, energy, and a great deal of time and patience.  Sword smithing uses all of these plus a great deal of research and study. What motivates these craftspeople?  And is this craft growing?


Edited by red clay - 13-Jun-2006 at 20:16
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 20:27
Why collect stamps? Why join a bowls club? Why build the tallest building in the world? Why climb mount everest?
 
Why do humans do?
 
Surely this is a philosophy question and one without an answer.
 
 
Swords of course are beautiful, they are articles of craftmanship and skill, they are empowering to hold, great fun to learn to use and make it an ambition that you get burgled while still in the house. They are historic objects and if one owns one a motivation to read the history behind it.
 
All things measured they are marginally better than watching  tv in brain rot terms and not a lot different from being an AE regular in nerdiness.


Edited by Paul - 13-Jun-2006 at 20:58
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
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Posts: 4310 		  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 20:52
I now have 3, I cant MAKE swords, but I plan on having my own little museums amount worth someday, of all kinds, from all around the world. 
 
Why would I spend so much money even on the just 3 I have?  Well Paul explains it quite well.  Plus, stamps and marbles dont produce as amusing an effect when you chase people with them.
 
Or lets get Freudian: Its phallic symbolism.
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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2006 at 06:38
I think I understand the collector's urge but, to actually make swords, thats something I still don't entirely understand.  My grandfather's shop had - a forge, a rather large brick based construction with heat hood, and electric blower todays market, about 15,000 US to build, What do anvils cost these days, his shop had 3-4 for various shapes, uses.  He also had an electric powered hammer for the preliminary rough work, add in all of the hammers, shaping tools, tongs etc. plus a structure to house all of this, this is not a cheap hobby.  Does the popularity of swordsmithing have anything to do with the increase in interest in medieval re-enacting[Society for Creative Anachronism] and other orgs like them.
I think my next question is, What does a hand forged, well made sword sell for on the open market? I'm not talking about those hokey Fantasy Swords that are factory knockoffs, you see them at weapons fairs and Renaissance gatherings. I'm talking about a legitimate, hand forged weapon, of quality and type that would have been found in say, the 14th century, in any part of the world. What does something like that sell for? 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 14-Jun-2006 at 06:39
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2006 at 09:35
Theres this sword that i plan on getting some day. I think its an old cavalry sword, not sure.
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Posts: 581 		  Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2006 at 23:56
Originally posted by red clay

I think I understand the collector's urge but, to actually make swords, thats something I still don't entirely understand.  My grandfather's shop had - a forge, a rather large brick based construction with heat hood, and electric blower todays market, about 15,000 US to build, What do anvils cost these days, his shop had 3-4 for various shapes, uses.  He also had an electric powered hammer for the preliminary rough work, add in all of the hammers, shaping tools, tongs etc. plus a structure to house all of this, this is not a cheap hobby.  Does the popularity of swordsmithing have anything to do with the increase in interest in medieval re-enacting[Society for Creative Anachronism] and other orgs like them.
I think my next question is, What does a hand forged, well made sword sell for on the open market? I'm not talking about those hokey Fantasy Swords that are factory knockoffs, you see them at weapons fairs and Renaissance gatherings. I'm talking about a legitimate, hand forged weapon, of quality and type that would have been found in say, the 14th century, in any part of the world. What does something like that sell for? 
 
 
 
Some swords found at Renaissance gatherings are quite nice. For instance, Dr. Jim Hrisoulas of the Salamander Armoury frequently sells his wares there. http://www.atar.com/old/
 
Costs can range from a few hundred to a few thousand US dollars for a well crafted and historically accurate weapon (crafted using historic bladesmithing techniques). Some of which come with a 50+ month waiting list as well.  These smiths usually custom make weapons for you.
 
Here's one I have had my eyes on for a while:
 
At 29700 CZK it's about 1,350 USD. Yeah, I will just admire the pictures...Tongue
 
I began blacksmithing a while ago. It is very enjoyable but I am far away from bladesmithing. Not to mention I haven't been able to go for quite some time now. But Sword Forum is a great source of information for your scholarly or professional questions.
Also, books by R. Ewart Oakeshott; I have a few and I use them often. http://www.oakeshott.org/
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 09:57
Those Czech pattern welded sword are beautiful, here's another Czech maker.
 
Light blue touch paper and stand well back

http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk

http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk
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Posts: 581 		  Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 10:46
Yeah, those are gorgeous. Smile
 
Have you read "Swords of the Viking Age" by Ian Peirce?
 
There is a wonderful introduction written by Oakeshott that talks about mythology and weapons. For instance snake-like pattern welded blades with glowing runes. He does a great job explaining how these beautiful weapons were once thought to be magical. And he uses actual tales from the period to demonstrate this. It's great.
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Posts: 219 		  Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 12:53
If you like that book Goban you should enjoy Records of the Medieval Sword by Oakeshott. 

Edited by Kaysaar - 27-Aug-2006 at 12:54
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Posts: 581 		  Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 13:48

Yes I have a copy. Big smile I received it last Christmas from my brother in law. It was a great surprise for me.

I also have copies of "The Sword in the Age of Chivalry" and "The Archaeology of Weapons," two great works. Oakeshott was simply amazing.
 
I've also rented some of his other books from the local library. But these three in particular, I'm glad I own. It does take some time for me to read through them. Tongue
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Posts: 219 		  Quote Kaysaar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 14:11
If you ever have the chance Goban, check out the Higgins Armory Museum in Worcestor Massachusetts. It's the largest collection of medieval Arms and Armor in the Western Hemisphere. They also have a very nice library for members.

I don't have The Sword in the Age of Chivalry, as I'm a poor college student Tongue, but "borrowed" my father's copy of The Archaeology of Weapons, and Swords of the Viking Age. He also picked up two seperate books that translated German swordfighting manuscripts. One also outlines medieval European martial arts, which is pretty nifty.
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Posts: 581 		  Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2006 at 14:38
That's awesome. Smile
 
"The Sword in the Age of Chivalry" was actually pretty hard to find. I ended up waiting for it on Amazon for a few months.
Thumbing through the "Records of the Medieval Sword" I noticed that some of the examples he gives in the intro are the same as those in the intro of "Swords of the Viking age" . Hmm, never noticed that before. Big smile
 
Are you a member of Sword Forum International yet?
 
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