Should turkey be allowed into the EU?

Leonidas im not sure what your problem is. If your beloved Greece was taking in hordes of immigrants im sure you would not be too happy about that.

Just imagine Athens being like Sydney, would that make you happy??

Edited by machine - 10-Jun-2006 at 10:36

Originally posted by bg_turk   Originally posted by Leonidas this bit of misinformation has been answered already. Please make an effort to understand whats put in front of you. BTW These points have been agreed to by ankara, and we are waiting for all points to be covered. All three are resaonble EU type points yes? of course and as far as I know Turkey had already met the Copenhagen requirements at least on paper. It is a functioning market (an enormous one at that) and most of the laws are already synchronized with the EU acquis but there are some problems with implemenation.

no they havent BG, infact turkey seems to be slowing down its reforms. Judging from the latest statements out of ankara (Hurriyet) they may be expecting a real slow down or even pause in the process. Concerns over the military <> government relationship have not been properly addressed and with the tensions between the islamists and the kemalists i dont see erdogan doing anything there in the near term

i was always hopefull that erdogan would pull through but now i am a pessimist

Originally posted by bg_turk Cyprus (i.e. the Greek administered area) entered because Greece threatened to block the entire expansion process if the Greek administered area did not enter as the sole legitimate government.

your language clearly reflects your bias, greece didnt threaten the EU, sounds good but that not what happened. They made a deal , which BTW they are allowed to do. The EU got what it wanted at the time, greece was happy, thats it. Its a EU matter, turkey being on the outside can only watch.

Originally posted by bg_turk Never in the history of the EU before has a country  not in control of its claimed territory has been allowed in. By admitting only one of two warring parties, the EU has derailed the Cyprus peace process and encouraged the maximalist and absolutist demands of Greek Cypriots and has emboldened their hardliner leader Papadopoulos.

spare me your rhetoric, The EU doesnt have a long history so its not that big a deal your trying to make out, nor does the EU have to answer to any external country. Unfortunatly for the turkish cypriots, being in a non reconised country, cant be treated as an equal part like the way your describing.

Well the turks would of got more in the long run if you gave some concessions before the cyprus's membership. At the time i shook my head at Gul, thinking he won the the top prize in negotiatian, gave nothing good for the greeks to vote yes for....absolute genius

Originally posted by bg_turk impossible ... recognition of the Greek Cypriot administration as the sole legitimate ruler of Cyprus would ammount to a complete Turkish capitulation in Cyprus, derecognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and a surrender of the Turkish Cypriots ... Turkey would rather have it EU membership suspended  than surrender Turkish Cypriots.

it is very much possible with the right mentality. International law might be used to legitimase the invasion but it has and cannot be used to legitimise the TRNC. The TRNC was created by ethnic cleansing, which you said once upon a time should be reversed. Ok but if thats the case, your

1. agianst the annan peace plan, (like me and the greek cypriots) wanting freedom of movement and residence. (EU rights)
2. would negate the TRNC which would have either a sizable greek minority (or even a greek majority if the turks move across the island.)
   

The TRNC can only exist if divisions are kept the way they are, which means your agianst peace and unity. Get over that, and the peace can be achieved.

The sole legitamate ruler should be a democratically elected governemt where the state has citizens of equal status. How is that a big difference to any other soveigen state? please tell me why thats unreasonble without diving into circulars.

Originally posted by bg_turk Besides Turkey has no problem recognizing the Greek Cypriot Administration in its current form and territories, what Turkey objects to is the claims of that Administration that it represents the entire island - a claim which is clearly disputed by Turkish Cypriots and which goes against 30 years of UN efforts to find a federal bizonal bicommunal solution where TCs and GCs will be equally represented. Asking Turkey to recognize the Greek part of the island as the only legitimate government is a maximalist demand.

big words hiding a irrational fear driven mentality. You can hold onto that part of the island like the generals want. Its would simply mean that turkey would be missing out on other opportunies and a real peace. You are siding with ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation and high defence budgets. No matter what extravagant words you can string on this.

 The annan plan contradicted EU and basic democractic princibles (as mention above and before), greek and turkish cypriots deserve the same rights within the EU as everyone else. That peace plan limited their rights by zoning them.

Originally posted by bg_turk All cypriots must have the same rights in all parts of the EU, as every other EU citizen. All EU countries should not be requried to host each others militaries in their terrirtory. All EU rules and subjects of soverignty must be applied equally. Legally, naturaly and rightly so. Why is it then that Turkish Cypriots who are supposedly EU citizens do not have the right to trade with the rest of the world? Why is it that they cannot participate in international sporting competitions? Why do their property, voting and many other fundamental rights in the Greek dominated Republic of Cyprus continue to be violated under the absurd and uncostitutional "Law of Necessity"? Or is your understanding of "EU rights" only limitted to Greek Cypriots?

ok is the horse before cart or behind it? They get those rights when they are a part unified whole. The structure on that whole, hasnt been agreed to, that has to be done first then the rest comes after. Infact this is a dead end argument on your behalf. You know perfectly well this isolation has always been the case due to the legalities of the occupation, so dont complain like its new. These are the results of the sitution created by the turkish policy that you support.

Infact you didnt answer my statment directly anyway. (becuase its true)

Originally posted by bg_turk When you are confronted with the disingenous and dishonest behavior of the EU which promised to lift the isolation of Turkish Cypriots and offer economic trade and so far has failed to meet any of the promises, you have no choice but to respond with similar methods.

thats a circular argument that gets you no where, they simply signed something they didnt mean. The EU cannot trade or deal with the TRNC in its present state, they cant. That a fact that has existed since the invasion, its would be unrealistic to hold any expectations that have these legalites disapear with a pen stroke.

Originally posted by bg_turk Turkey signed the agreement with the expectation that her goodwill will be reciprocated, and ALL restrictions on free trade in Cyprus will be lifted for ALL of its people, not only for PART of the people. Implementation of customs agreement with Southern Cyprus while the North is still isolated would be a political suicide for any Turkish government and the EU knows that.

The political suicude was pushing for a continued military presence. I can tell you if the turkish military didnt get involved and the turks gave up  two or three "redlines" (like the military presence funnily enough), the greeks would of voted yes and everyone would be happy.

Ok? its not just one sides fault!

Originally posted by bg_turk The Cyprus problem is the main and major obstacle before Turkish EU membership. Talking about Turkish EU membership without mentioning Cyprus is impossible.

you half right, the real focus is the turkish approach and actions on this issue, as thats what effects its candinancy. Are you able to do that then?

Originally posted by bg_turk I am not whinning nor moaning against Greeks, I am simply expressing my opinion on the issue. You cannot talk about Turkish behaviour out of context without mentioning the Greek beahvior that provoked it.

agian your language gives your narrow mindness away. You talk like the turks have no choice are faultless and that they are the ones being  provoked.

why do you unoriginally regurgitate turkeys foreign policy with little moral imput? (which we see in every other thread/subject bar these ones).

Originally posted by bg_turk Let's hope Athens will never have to experience something like this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/avdb/news_web/video/9012da68002e708/nb/09012da68002e9d4_16x9_nb.asx

Edited by machine - 10-Jun-2006 at 11:11

That happened well over a century ago Bulldog. Its out of my hands, blame the British.  Your British.

Blame? don't you like being Australlian? if you do I think that'll be "thank the Brittish", now why don't you return the favour and allow others to settle in that huge continant in the same way you did a hundred or so years ago

Edited by Bulldog - 10-Jun-2006 at 11:23

Originally posted by Leonidas i was always hopefull that erdogan would pull through but now i am a pessimist

Its about the elections ... he is playing the nationalist card to gain more votes.

I know it is futile to argue on this issue, so I will just try to address the parts of your statements that I can show are factually incorrect.

greece didnt threaten the EU, sounds good but that not what happened.

Greece, for its part, has threatened to block all the EU's enlargement ambitions if Cyprus is not included in the first round of expansion.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1694326.stm

Originally posted by bg_turk The TRNC was created by ethnic cleansing, which you said once upon a time should be reversed.

Yes, you are right. I fully support the human rights of Greek Cypriots but under the jurisdiction of the TRNCs and they should return only if they recognize its right to exist.

agianst the annan peace plan, (like me and the greek cypriots) wanting freedom of movement and residence. (EU rights)

I see you share many of the misconceptions abot the Annan plan as many other Greek Cypriots I have met. A friend from talkcyprus.org, who has actually read the plan, summarises the main points pertaining to your concerns about movement and residency:

Restrictions that I can NOT find anywhere in the plan: Any permanent restrictions on Greek Cypriot ability to go anywhere they want in Cyprus. Any restrictions permanent on Greek Cypriot ability to buy property anywhere they want in cyprus. Any permanent restrictions on Greek Cypriot ability to live anywhere they want in Cyprus not as a resident of the CS they are not citizen of. That is they can live anywhere they like but there may be some restrictions on their ability to be politcaly represented at CS state level or local level depending on how many other Greek Cypriot (southern component state citizens) already have residency there.

Source:
http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1098

would negate the TRNC which would have either a sizable greek minority (or even a greek majority if the turks move across the island.)

If you do the calculations - when all Greek in Cyprus are compensated with Turkish properties in the South and the rest are allowed to return you will find out that they will form no more than 1/3 of the population. With territorial adjustment this ratio can be decreased further.
You can read more here:

http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2607&start=0

The sole legitamate ruler should be a democratically elected governemt where the state has citizens of equal status. How is that a big difference to any other soveigen state? please tell me why thats unreasonble without diving into circulars.

It is unreasonable because it undermines the Turkish Cypriot communal rights by turning them into a minority in a Greek dominated state.

Originally posted by bg_turk big words hiding a irrational fear driven mentality. You can hold onto that part of the island like the generals want. Its would simply mean that turkey would be missing out on other opportunies and a real peace. You are siding with ethnic cleansing, illegal occupation and high defence budgets.

I am not, and on many occasions I expressed a full support for the restoration of human rights for everybody in Cyprus but WITHIN the current political framework.  And there are encouraging signs for that with the establishment of the recent property comission under the directives of the ECHR that will not only be able to compensate, but also return the properties to Greek Cypriot refugees:
http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.php?id=25557&archive=1

The annan plan contradicted EU and basic democractic princibles (as mention above and before), greek and turkish cypriots deserve the same rights within the EU as everyone else.

Would you please provide references to sections of the Plan which you believe contradicted basic human rights? As I showed above the claims that the Annan plan restricted right of residency and movement are myths used to justify the Greek rejection of the Annan plan but bear no relevance to reality.

Infact you didnt answer my statment directly anyway. (becuase its true)

Your statement may be true in principle, and it is really great to support full human rights for everybody in Cyprus, but I am not that naive to believe that in practice it is achievable. If Turkish Cypriots were to relinquish their soveregntiy there is no guarantee that their rights will be respected and that they will not end up as Turks in Greece or Bulgaria with virtually no communal rights at all.

Originally posted by bg_turk The EU cannot trade or deal with the TRNC in its present state, they cant.

Then they should not have made empty promises and deceived the Turkish Cypriot community with hopes for a better future.

The political suicude was pushing for a continued military presence. I can tell you if the turkish military didnt get involved and the turks gave up  two or three "redlines" (like the military presence funnily enough), the greeks would of voted yes and everyone would be happy.

Believe me the millitary was totally against the Annan plan in the first place as was Denktash. By putting the plan to referendum Erdogan had already pushed as many redilnes as possible and had taken an enormous political risk going against decades of Turkish foreign policy on a Plan that was not that different from previous version that Klerides had shown readiness to accept, but Denktash rejected.

Ok? its not just one sides fault!

The responsibility for the rejection of the Annan Plan rests entirely and solely upon the Greek Cypriot community and their leadership. Turkish Cypriots and Turkey (and even to some extent Greece (Bakoyanis)) were supportive of the plan

Originally posted by mico5bei I have to tell you big turk,

not big turk, Bulgarian(BG) Turk

im sick and tired of hearing about Cyprus.

Me too - on every single EU declaration pertaining to Turkey, the EU does not fail to mention Cyprus and try to undermine the already precarious position of the Turkish Cypriot community on the island. Withou the Cyprus problem that Turkish accession would have been so much smoother and easier.

But anyway you maybe right that I am giving disproportionate attention to Cyprus ... Cyprus is a tiny island, and if it werent for it, France and the opposers of Turkish membershib witin the EU, I am sure would have found other excuses to block Turkish membership.
 

Originally posted by Bulldog   You'd be suprised, it really does revolve around Cyprus.

you are totally right ... just today Greek Cypriot Republic refused to agree to the closure of the chapter on science and research  unless Turkey meets their political demand of openning its ports and airports to Souterh Cypriot vessels (mind you).

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=45877


Turkey simply cannot negotiate under conditions where Greek Cypriots obstruct the process even in totally unrleated to their demands areas. I expect that the negotiations will be suspended.

Let's hope that the Turkish economy will be resilient enough to survive sucha  developement.

Originally posted by mico5bei I have to tell you big turk, im sick and tired of hearing about Cyprus. All you do is complain and complain about Cyprus. You talk like Cyprus is the main issue why Turkey hasn't been admitted to the EU, everytime the topic about Turkey and the EU deflects to Cyprus. Im not claiming to know more about what your saying than you do, you obviously are very knowledgable in this subject, but Turkeys entrance to the EU has alot less to do with Cyprus than I think you make it out to be.

Originally posted by Neoptolemos "In addition, for a transitional period a constituent state may, pursuant to Constitutional Law, limit the establishment of residence by persons hailing from the other constituent state. To this effect, it may establish a moratorium until the end of the fifth year after entry into force of the Foundation Agreement, after which limitations are permissible if the number of residents hailing from the other constituent state has reached 6% of the population of a village or municipality between the 6th and 9th years and 12% between the 10th and 14th years and 18% of the population of the relevant constituent state thereafter, until the 19th year or Turkey�s accession to the European Union, whichever is earlier."

The key word that you are missing is "transitional". These limitations on residency will be only temporary and they will extend no further than 19 years after reunification or Turkish membership (whichever is earlier), and will not be permament derogations as Leonidas seemed to impy. Such temporary limitations exist for other EU citizens such as those in Poland and their right to reside in the EU for instance and it is only natural that they exist since each constitutent state of United Cyprus will need time to deal with the massive population movement that will occur as a result of unification.

In fact the same paragraph was quoted in the link I provided and will provide again for your convenience:
http://www.talkcyprus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1098

By the way I too hope that the negotiations with the EU will continue ... but it looks increasingly likely that Southern Cyprus will derail (that there will be a Cyprus Train Crash as Baroso says).

I hope you are right that the negotations will continue but do not expect Turkey to compromise further on Cyprus - on the contrary from now on the Turkish stance will become increasingly hardline with approaching elections and the possibility of the election of a less concilatory government than that of Erdogan. A golden opportunity for reunification was missed.
It was a take it or leave it kind of opportunity, which Greek Cypriots chose to reject in the hope of getting a much better deal with EU help but they might as well get nothing in return now. Partition is more likely than ever.


Edited by bg_turk - 10-Jun-2006 at 22:33