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Topic ClosedShould turkey be allowed into the EU?

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Poll Question: Should Turkey be allowed join the EU
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Should turkey be allowed into the EU?
    Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 13:52
Originally posted by Komnenos

There are, of course, dozens of threads on the very same topic in AE.
But with a fluctuating membership on AE, there might be some new insights.
As many of the threads have turned sour in the past, let's try and keep this one civil.
 
My opinion, if Turkey wants to join the EU and fulfills all the usual entry conditions, they're more than welcome.
The EU is a economic and political union, not a religious or cultural one, but a Muslim country in the EU would further enrich the cultural diversity and might bridge a gap that needs desperately to be brigded.
 
LOLLOLLOLLOL 
 
What about social, crime, racial/ethnic, religious issues Kommie????
 
Enrich what cultural diversityConfused Whats wrong with Europe the way it is??
 
Lets take a look at things from a different prospective.
 
-Do Europeans actually want MORE Islam introduced into Europe??
-Will the Turks close themselves off, not learn the language and have more children than the natives?
-Islam is alien to Europe
-No one wants them- I have read forums concerning this matter and NO ONE wants them in Europe.
-Your putting pressure on the original inhabitants to welcome people who they do not want.
-How many Turks will leave Turkey for Europe???
-They arent even European.
 
Try look at this issue from a different point of view Komnemos.
 
Im not from Europe yet it would be just the same here. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by machine - 09-Jun-2006 at 13:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:08
Originally posted by machine

-Do Europeans actually want MORE Islam introduced into Europe??

Islam is not introduced to Europe, it is part of Europe. I am a European Muslim.


-Will the Turks close themselves off, not learn the language and have more children than the natives?

The Turks are the natives in Turkey. We are not talking about moving the whole Turkish population to Europe, but making Turkey part of the European Union. I think with growing prosperity at home more Turks will be encouraged to stay in their homeland rather than move to Europe in search of a better life.


-Islam is alien to Europe

As Mila has pointed out on several occasions, Christianity is alien to Europe too as it did not originate in Europe but was introduced to Europe from the Middle East like Islam.


-No one wants them- I have read forums concerning this matter and NO ONE wants them in Europe.

With such generalizations you look ridiculous. There certainly are Europeans who want Turkey in.


-Your putting pressure on the original inhabitants to welcome people who they do not want.
-How many Turks will leave Turkey for Europe???

I am sure the EU will put some restrictions on labor mobility as it did in Poland.


-They arent even European.


More Turks live in Europe than the populations of Serbia or  Bulgaria or Greece.

Your Islamophobic hysteria is pathetic.Dead



Edited by bg_turk - 09-Jun-2006 at 14:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:28
Bg-turk dude let it go man.
most of the turks don't even want the EU only the white bread westernised city people. No we aren't european. They don't like muslims because with all that terrorist stuff. But they think were like arabs wrong name one terrorist turk( exept those communists like feriye ayhan & co). If entering the EU means giving up your identety then no.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:41

Islam is not introduced to Europe, it is part of Europe. I am a European Muslim.
 
Islam is apart of Europe mmmm ok if you say so. Judaism is apart of the Middle East, look how peaceful things are of present.
 
 
The Turks are the natives in Turkey. We are not talking about moving the whole Turkish population to Europe, but making Turkey part of the European Union. I think with growing prosperity at home more Turks will be encouraged to stay in their homeland rather than move to Europe in search of a better life.
 
Perhaps you are right. This prosperity wont happen instantaniously and given a few years of Turkish immigration European countries could face many cultural/racial/religions promlems. Like they are now.

As Mila has pointed out on several occasions, Christianity is alien to Europe too as it did not originate in Europe but was introduced to Europe from the Middle East like Islam.
 
Yes your right but it also happened along time ago and Europe identifies itself with Christianity not Islam.

With such generalizations you look ridiculous. There certainly are Europeans who want Turkey in.
 
Yes i bet these Euros are a minority.


More Turks live in Europe than the populations of Serbia or  Bulgaria or Greece.
 
How are Turks thought of in Europe??
 


 
Your Islamophobic hysteria is pathetic.Dead
 
Its not pathetic. I did not even mention terrorism.
 
What does European mean to people these days???? Dont people care about their identities, their cultures, their own people????


Edited by machine - 09-Jun-2006 at 14:44
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 14:49
Originally posted by machine

Yes your right but it also happened along time ago and Europe identifies itself with Christianity not Islam.


No, Europe is secular and it does not identify itself with any religion. No religious references exist in the European Constitution.


Yes i bet these Euros are a minority.


A minority, but nonetheless a substantial one ... besides public opinion changes and many Western Europeans who have visited Turkey would like to see the country as part of Europe. Those that oppose membership are ignorant of the country.


How are Turks thought of in Europe??


You mean how they are perceived in Western Europe? I better leave it to western europeans who know turks to answer this question.



Edited by bg_turk - 09-Jun-2006 at 14:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 15:58
 Economically EU is fine, for our internal democracy, It is fine too. but when it comes international relations, EU is harmful.(what is the taste of international politics, If you dont harrass greece and cyprus)
 
After enhancing our democracy and economy, EU can go anywhere she want. Until it, we love euSmile
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 16:13
Originally posted by Mortaza

 Economically EU is fine, for our internal democracy, It is fine too. but when it comes international relations, EU is harmful.(what is the taste of international politics, If you dont harrass greece and cyprus)
 
After enhancing our democracy and economy, EU can go anywhere she want. Until it, we love euSmile
 
 
Damn it Mortoza you have blown our coverTongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 16:21

Machine
-Do Europeans actually want MORE Islam introduced into Europe??

When a country enters the EU it does not smother the continant or invade land....nothing will actually change in the European countries, just another country will be added to the pollitical club.

Machine
-Will the Turks close themselves off, not learn the language and have more children than the natives?

Theres alot of Turks in London, most are bilingual and rapidly climbing the social ladder, there's alot of Turks in our universities also their English-Turkish business and trade forums are contributing to the country.  Turkey is a vital energy hub for the West, its potential is only beginning to be expored for eg. the B-T-C project etc etc

Machine
-Islam is alien to Europe

Its just as alien as Christianity is, not to mention it only entered a few centuries after Christianity via Spain.

Spain has a longer Islamic history than Catholic one, the golden age of Al-Andalus and the advances of the Ottomans heavily influenced the renaissance.
 
Not to mention Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia and large populations throughout the Balkans and the rest of Europe.
 
Machine
-No one wants them- I have read forums concerning this matter and NO ONE wants them in Europe.
 
UK wouldn't mind Wink we don't really care about the EU, its slowly disintegrating anyway.
 
 
Machine
-How many Turks will leave Turkey for Europe???
 
There already are millions in Europe so what would it change.
 
Machine
-They arent even European.
 
Define "European", according to the French we arn't "European" either, were the Anglo-American alliance LOL
 
 
The EU needs Turkey, EU has a ageing population, is slowly entering stagnation, needs energy hubs in its own club, needs to counter the Anglo-American-Israeli alliance.
 
Regardless of what you think of Turkey today, in 10-15 years it will have a huge, dynamic  educated population, its standards will be approaching those of Europe and it will have a powerfull economy, Europe will need Turkey, Turkey won't need the EU infact all it would do is hinder it at that stage as it would need to share its wealth among newer less economically developed Eastern European new EU states.
 
If the EU throws away its golden opportunity we'll take it, Israel supports Turkey's entry so does America so does UK we need to control the EU from the beginning ie UK and finish ie TUrkey.
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 09-Jun-2006 at 16:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 17:56
 
 
Islam is apart of Europe mmmm ok if you say so. Judaism is apart of the Middle East, look how peaceful things are of present.
 
Very cheap and irrelevant comparison indeed.
 
 
Perhaps you are right. This prosperity wont happen instantaniously and given a few years of Turkish immigration European countries could face many cultural/racial/religions promlems. Like they are now.
 
This possible prospect of emigration waves is being way too much exaggerated...In 1960s, West Germany wanted Gastarbeiters from Turkey itself, Turkey didn't force them...And compare the Spanish,Portuguese and Greek GDP per capitas before membership to EU to Turkish GDP per capitas,they are near, now there is a significant difference..You will see how it drastically changes if Turkey is allowed.There won't be millions going there after membership.Europe shall get it used to a secular and tolerant structure as there are already tens of millions of Muslims there...Your point is not really realistic.

 
 
Your Islamophobic hysteria is pathetic.Dead
Its not pathetic. I did not even mention terrorism.
 
Yes, it is pathetic and you are misinformed.
 


Edited by Kapikulu - 09-Jun-2006 at 17:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 18:06
Originally posted by VARLAAM

Well E.U. forgot to ask bg_turk before accepting Cyprus as member state.Well My opinion Europeans want   Turkey more as market to sell their products and make with low prices holidays .If Turkey become a full member needs enormous budgets to converge the economy of Turkey of the European economies .Who is gonna contribute the budget E.U. with these money.

Cannot be only limited with the market and economical reasons, even though this is the largest factor...Strategical reasons are a part of it...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 18:32
Originally posted by machine

[
LOLLOLLOLLOL 
 
What about social, crime, racial/ethnic, religious issues Kommie????
 
Enrich what cultural diversityConfused Whats wrong with Europe the way it is??
 
Lets take a look at things from a different prospective.
 
-Do Europeans actually want MORE Islam introduced into Europe??
-Will the Turks close themselves off, not learn the language and have more children than the natives?
-Islam is alien to Europe
-No one wants them- I have read forums concerning this matter and NO ONE wants them in Europe.
-Your putting pressure on the original inhabitants to welcome people who they do not want.
-How many Turks will leave Turkey for Europe???
-They arent even European.
 
Try look at this issue from a different point of view Komnemos.
 
Im not from Europe yet it would be just the same here.    
 
 
As for your core argument:
 
Turkey is member of most European organisations and has been for a long time: OECD, Council of Europe, OSCE, NATO, UEFA, Eurovision Song Contest, and so on, to name only the most important.
 
By  inviting Turkey to join these European organisations, The European states have made it perfectly clear that they understand Turkey as a part of Europe. And it follows quite naturally, by accepting a country as being European, you include its population.
Turkey's entry in the EU would therefore be no surprising or radical step, but the logical continuation of a process.
 
As for the rest of the arguments, we have heard it all before.
Every time a country joined that was not located in the West of Europe where the EU originated, all these scare-mongering xenophobic rumours crept up, that floods of poor immigrants from the new countries would pour into Western Europe and take all our jobs, etc, it didn't happen when Greece, Spain or Portugal joined in the 80s and it didn't happen at the latest round in 2004.
 
The adversaries of Turkey's entry have of course have only one motive and only one argument. They play the race and religion card, in the current climate of Islamophobia the same.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 22:05
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Leonidas


"− the Copenhagen criteria, which set down the following requirements for membership:
*the stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;
* the existence of a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the Union;
* the ability to take on the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union and the administrative capacity to effectively apply and implement the acquis;

The Copenhagen criteria are the prerequisite to being declared a candidate country, and since Turkey has been declared a candidate country she has already met those.
this bit of misinformation has been answered already. Please make an effort to understand whats put in front of you.

BTW These points have been agreed to by ankara, and we are waiting for all points to be covered. All three are resaonble EU type points yes?

Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Leonidas

− Turkey's unequivocal commitment to good neighbourly relations and its undertaking to resolve any outstanding border disputes in conformity with the principle of peaceful settlement of disputes in accordance with the United Nations Charter, including if necessary jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice;

good neighbourly relations? Shouldn't the EU have appled those same requirement to the Greek Cypriot administration before it joined. How is it possible for a country effectively at war with the other half of itself to be admitted to the EU?[quote]
This is about turkey's membership.

FYI , threats of war and fighter jets in aegean are more the measure for neighbourly relationsStern Smile. Thats not the cyprus sensative line. This is the behiavour (status quo) you support, so please tell me how can the EU let another country in when that behavoiur and verbal threat continues?

bitching about greeks will only get turkey so far. Cyprus met the pre-requists, so did greece, both are EU members, once you get past that fact turkey's membership is certain.


Originally posted by bg_turk

The entity which you refer to by the name of "Republic of Cyprus" is unrecognized by Turkey and Turkish Cypriots and does not in any way shape or form represent the Turkish Cypriot community which is completely absent from its governing structures.
well there lies the problem, you have to reconize all members equally before you join the Union. Legally, naturaly and rightly so.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Improvement in the bilateral relations are only possible if the Republic of Cyprus shows the same goodwill towards the Turkish Cypruit community.
goodwill and blank cheques are two different things. One side wants union and the other as much seperation as possible.  All cypriots must have the same rights in all parts of the EU, as every other EU citizen. All EU countries should not be requried to host each others militaries in their terrirtory. All EU rules and subjects of soverignty must be applied equally. Legally, naturaly and rightly so.

Originally posted by bg_turk

Turkey might consider lifting its isolation against Southern Cyprus, when the embargoes against Northern Cyprus are lifted.

There is no chance for Turkish parliament to accept a lifting of the isolation against Southern Cyprus, when the North is still under embargoes.
turkey agreed to customs union already, if it couldnt do it at that point or didnt want to, it should of walked then and there. It didnt, signed the agreemant knowing full well what the EU ment by the words and now is trying bargain it away after the fact. Do you sign agreemants and then argue over the agreemant BG? where i come from thats disingenous and dishonest behavoiur.


Now, this is about turkey, turkey's behavoiur and turkey membership. You are deflecting the questions back from turkey. Do have you the ability to talk about the overall issues? or are you goin to bore us with your whining and moaning about greeks, again?



Edited by Leonidas - 09-Jun-2006 at 22:16
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 22:15
forumers, i grew up around people like machine. Im embarressed but not suprised that there these types in my country stuck in the white australia mentality.

 He knows nothing iof turkey's candidancy as you can see, he argues only on general non specifics of fear and distrust.



Edited by Leonidas - 09-Jun-2006 at 22:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 22:52
 
Originally posted by Leonidas


this bit of misinformation has been answered already. Please make an effort to understand whats put in front of you.

BTW These points have been agreed to by ankara, and we are waiting for all points to be covered. All three are resaonble EU type points yes?

of course and as far as I know Turkey had already met the Copenhagen requirements at least on paper. It is a functioning market (an enormous one at that) and most of the laws are already synchronized with the EU acquis but there are some problems with implemenation.

This is about turkey's membership.

FYI , threats of war and fighter jets in aegean are more the measure for neighbourly relationsStern Smile. Thats not the cyprus sensative line. This is the behiavour (status quo) you support, so please tell me how can the EU let another country in when that behavoiur and verbal threat continues?

bitching about greeks will only get turkey so far. Cyprus met the pre-requists, so did greece, both are EU members, once you get past that fact turkey's membership is certain.


Cyprus (i.e. the Greek administered area) entered because Greece threatened to block the entire expansion process if the Greek administered area did not enter as the sole legitimate government. Never in the history of the EU before has a country  not in control of its claimed territory has been allowed in. By admitting only one of two warring parties, the EU has derailed the Cyprus peace process and encouraged the maximalist and absolutist demands of Greek Cypriots and has emboldened their hardliner leader Papadopoulos.


well there lies the problem, you have to reconize all members equally before you join the Union. Legally, naturaly and rightly so.


impossible ... recognition of the Greek Cypriot administration as the sole legitimate ruler of Cyprus would ammount to a complete Turkish capitulation in Cyprus, derecognition of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus and a surrender of the Turkish Cypriots ... Turkey would rather have it EU membership suspended  than surrender Turkish Cypriots.

Besides Turkey has no problem recognizing the Greek Cypriot Administration in its current form and territories, what Turkey objects to is the claims of that Administration that it represents the entire island - a claim which is clearly disputed by Turkish Cypriots and which goes against 30 years of UN efforts to find a federal bizonal bicommunal solution where TCs and GCs will be equally represented. Asking Turkey to recognize the Greek part of the island as the only legitimate government is a maximalist demand.

goodwill and blank cheques are two different things. One side wants union and the other as much seperation as possible. 

Turkish Cypriots have shown their prounification stance in a very definiteve way during the Unification Referendum which Greek Cypriots rejected resoundingly. Recent polls in the South indicate that an increasing number of Greek Cyprios do not wish to live together with their Turkish counterparts. Who is the one against unification and who wants seperation?


All cypriots must have the same rights in all parts of the EU, as every other EU citizen. All EU countries should not be requried to host each others militaries in their terrirtory. All EU rules and subjects of soverignty must be applied equally. Legally, naturaly and rightly so.

Why is it then that Turkish Cypriots who are supposedly EU citizens do not have the right to trade with the rest of the world? Why is it that they cannot participate in international sporting competitions? Why do their property, voting and many other fundamental rights in the Greek dominated Republic of Cyprus continue to be violated under the absurd and uncostitutional "Law of Necessity"? Or is your understanding of "EU rights" only limitted to Greek Cypriots?

turkey agreed to customs union already, if it couldnt do it at that point or didnt want to, it should of walked then and there. It didnt, signed the agreemant knowing full well what the EU ment by the words and now is trying bargain it away after the fact. Do you sign agreemants and then argue over the agreemant BG? where i come from thats disingenous and dishonest behavoiur.

When you are confronted with the disingenous and dishonest behavior of the EU which promised to lift the isolation of Turkish Cypriots
and offer economic trade and so far has failed to meet any of the promises, you have no choice but to respond with similar methods. Turkey signed the agreement with the expectation that her goodwill will be reciprocated, and ALL restrictions on free trade in Cyprus will be lifted for ALL of its people, not only for PART of the people. Implementation of customs agreement with Southern Cyprus while the North is still isolated would be a political suicide for any Turkish government and the EU knows that.


Now, this is about turkey, turkey's behavoiur and turkey memeberbship. You are deflecting the questions back from turkey. Do have you the ability to talk about the overall issues? or are you goin to bore us with your whining and moaning about greeks, again?


The Cyprus problem is the main and major obstacle before Turkish EU membership. Talking about Turkish EU membership without mentioning Cyprus is impossible.

I am not whinning nor moaning against Greeks, I am simply expressing my opinion on the issue. You cannot talk about Turkish behaviour out of context without mentioning the Greek beahvior that provoked it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 22:53
Originally posted by Leonidas

forumers, i grew up around people like machine. Im embarressed but not suprised that there these types in my country stuck in the white australia mentality.

 He knows nothing iof turkey's candidancy as you can see, he argues only on general non specifics of fear and distrust.


Thank you for saing that. I appreciate it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 23:05
Europe is becoming more and more xenophobic, a rise in right-wing thinking. Even though these peoples arguements are normally futile and without basis(i.e islam isn't apart of Europe) they can't be ignored, because they might play a huge effect on Turkeys application in the coming years.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2006 at 23:45
Originally posted by Leonidas

forumers, i grew up around people like machine. Im embarressed but not suprised that there these types in my country stuck in the white australia mentality.

 He knows nothing iof turkey's candidancy as you can see, he argues only on general non specifics of fear and distrust.

 
Im not stuck in a White Australia policy, i just think immigration should be toughened up.
 
And i know people like you Leonidas who would happily welcome the world into Australia without thinking of the consequences.
 
 
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 08:06

If the people before you arrived in Australlia adopted your views, you wouldn't be an Australlian today, did you ever care to think about that?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 08:11
Originally posted by mico5bei

Europe is becoming more and more xenophobic, a rise in right-wing thinking. Even though these peoples arguements are normally futile and without basis(i.e islam isn't apart of Europe) they can't be ignored, because they might play a huge effect on Turkeys application in the coming years.
 
The left-wing was rising for the last few years(as can be seen from elections in Spain etc.), but seems like the right is starting to rise again(Merkel's win against SPD)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 10:26
Originally posted by Bulldog

If the people before you arrived in Australlia adopted your views, you wouldn't be an Australlian today, did you ever care to think about that?

 
Hyperthetically your right, in reality your wrong. Australia was a British/European colony, end of story.
 
I have nothing against immigrants from Middle Eat, Asia and Africa, but we dont need hordes of them. 
 
 
 
 
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