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battleaxe
Janissary
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Topic: strongest kingdom Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 21:24 |
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i'm a korean myself, and we certain were strong at times, but all these people thinking ancient Korea was more powerful than the Mongol Empire? are u kidding? comon that is quite a stretch. Wa japan stronger than the Mongol Empire, haha let's not even bring that up.
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Christscrusader
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Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 22:19 |
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Did Korea even have a big impact on Ancient Asian Culture?
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Heaven helps those, who help themselves.
-Jc
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demon
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Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 08:57 |
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They HAD, but korea having big impact is debatable
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Grrr..
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warhead
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Posted: 19-Nov-2004 at 09:25 |
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The poll is probably rigged, its quite useless. I don't even know why Korea is on it.
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Gubook Janggoon
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Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 00:41 |
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eh...
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ROKMC
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Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 17:26 |
What's wrong with Korea being in the poll?
Didn't Kwanggaeto repulse the invading Wa Japanese? Didn't Kwanggaeto conquer much of Manchuria? Didn't Koguryeo repulse the Sui Chinese? Didn't Koguryeo more than hold its own against the numerically superior Tang Chinese? Didn't the Tang Chinese defeat Koguryeo only with the help of Shilla? Didn't Shilla drive out the Tang Chinese out of the Korean peninsula within five years? Didn't Koryeo hold back the Mongols for 40 years?
What has Wa Japan done in comparison?
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Infini
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Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 21:05 |
Your right man. korea has a rich culture but people base the influence level on recent events. honestly it is difficult to know who influenced who in the past because history is shrouded in lies and deception. Every nation had its ups and downs and i think it all depends on the situation of the surrounding world. i think you think of the mongols in a very militaristic standpoint, but an empire is not held together by military for long. Mongols really did not last for too long either. I mean dont get me wrong I think they were amazing, but that empire was too big for them to control.
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hi
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warhead
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Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 23:55 |
"What's wrong with Korea being in the poll?"
Its wrong for the simple reason it has never been anywhere close to a dominating power for the entirety of its existence. Even at its height of power, Koguri was a vassal of the Wei kingdom.
"Didn't Kwanggaeto repulse the invading Wa Japanese?"
amazing 
"Didn't Kwanggaeto conquer much of Manchuria?"
So did countless other empires.
"Didn't Koguryeo repulse the Sui Chinese? "
Yes yet they never surrounded the sui emperor the way the TuJue did.
"Didn't Koguryeo more than hold its own against the numerically superior Tang Chinese?"
The Tang were anything but numerical superior, the entire first invasion force of Tang was only 150,000 at most. Later campaigns might have been diffrent, but holding its own still doesn't deny the fact that Koguri was a Tang vassal before the invasion.
"Didn't the Tang Chinese defeat Koguryeo only with the help of Shilla?"
The campaign is questionable, Northern Koguri has been overrun even without the participation of Silla. Only time will tell.
"Didn't Shilla drive out the Tang Chinese out of the Korean peninsula within five years?"
The Tang withdrew due to Tibetan threat.
"Didn't Koryeo hold back the Mongols for 40 years?"
It submitted to mongols periodically through out, 40 years is merely the lapse of the final subjugation in which the king is forced to come to court.
In all Holding out doesn't equal strongest and even to a lesser degree, win.
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ROKMC
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Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 01:53 |
"What's wrong with Korea being in the poll?"
Its wrong for the simple reason it has never been anywhere close to a dominating power for the entirety of its existence. Even at its height of power, Koguri was a vassal of the Wei kingdom.
Koguryeo paid tribute to China; Koguryeo was not a vassal state of China. China had no direct control over Koguryeo. Not paying tribute to China meant no trade and bad diplomatic relations. And you don't want to piss off a neighbor that has about fifty times your population.
"Didn't Kwanggaeto repulse the invading Wa Japanese?"
amazing 
Wa Japan was on the poll, right?
"Didn't Kwanggaeto conquer much of Manchuria?"
So did countless other empires.
Manchuria was also on the poll, right?
"Didn't Koguryeo repulse the Sui Chinese? "
Yes yet they never surrounded the sui emperor the way the TuJue did.
Okay.
"Didn't Koguryeo more than hold its own against the numerically superior Tang Chinese?"
The Tang were anything but numerical superior, the entire first invasion force of Tang was only 150,000 at most. Later campaigns might have been diffrent, but holding its own still doesn't deny the fact that Koguri was a Tang vassal before the invasion.
Yeah, later campaigns were different, with a lot more soldiers pouring into Koguryeo from China.
"Didn't the Tang Chinese defeat Koguryeo only with the help of Shilla?"
The campaign is questionable, Northern Koguri has been overrun even without the participation of Silla. Only time will tell.
The fact is that Tang China conquered Koguryeo with the help of Shilla.
"Didn't Shilla drive out the Tang Chinese out of the Korean peninsula within five years?"
The Tang withdrew due to Tibetan threat.
Shilla drove out the Tang Chinese out of Baekje land at the Battle of Busosan Fortress in 671. Shilla drove out the Tang Chinese out of Koguryeo land up to the Daedong River at the Battle of Maecho Fortress in 676. Isn't it a bit early for the Tibetan threat on Tang China to manifest?
"Didn't Koryeo hold back the Mongols for 40 years?"
It submitted to mongols periodically through out, 40 years is merely the lapse of the final subjugation in which the king is forced to come to court.
In all Holding out doesn't equal strongest and even to a lesser degree, win.
Fine, but the Mongols kicked everyones' asses. Um, feel free to nitpick this comment as well.
You haven't answered my last question though. I admit that Korea was not as strong as China or Mongolia, but if Wa Japan is on the poll then Korea sure as hell deserves to be.
Edited by ROKMC
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MengTzu
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Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 02:43 |
This is getting pretty ridiculous =) One thing about the poll is that it's too much of a hindsight: it lists China, Korea, Japan (one famous empire per nation) because these are the three notably existing nations in East Asia today. Manchurian empire, being the most recent, is also listed. the Mongolian empire, aside from the fact that the Mongolian nation exists today, is most likely listed because it's the most famous Asian empire in history. Overlooked are countless other regimes and empires, like the Tibetan, the Xianbei, etc. Added to the fray, of course, is that we all played into the hindsight -- preferring one empire over the other because of the modern nations that supposedly inherit their legacies.
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hansioux
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Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 03:19 |
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It's just a poll. If you don't like it, start your own... No one will stop you.
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Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.
Lai Ho, Formosan Poet
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MengTzu
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Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 03:24 |
If I dun like it, I'm also free to critique it, which I did. =)
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warhead
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Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 15:10 |
"Koguryeo paid tribute to China; Koguryeo was not a vassal state of China. China had no direct control over Koguryeo. Not paying tribute to China meant no trade and bad diplomatic relations. And you don't want to piss off a neighbor that has about fifty times your population."
Koguri is a vassal of the Wei, the Wei emperor granted it official titles just like it did to Wa Japan.
"Shilla drove out the Tang Chinese out of Baekje land at the Battle of Busosan Fortress in 671. Shilla drove out the Tang Chinese out of Koguryeo land up to the Daedong River at the Battle of Maecho Fortress in 676. Isn't it a bit early for the Tibetan threat on Tang China to manifest?"
Tibetan aggression began in 670 and in the memorial to the Tang emperor, an official clearly state that the conquest of Korea is secondary to the much more threatening Tibetan menace.
It submitted to mongols periodically through out, 40 years is merely the lapse of the final subjugation in which the king is forced to come to court.
In all Holding out doesn't equal strongest and even to a lesser degree, win.
Fine, but the Mongols kicked everyones' asses. Um, feel free to nitpick this comment as well."
Will, I am forced to say otherwise, examining the mongol battles and tactic deployment, they haven't shown to be all superb compared to the other conquest armies such as Turuk, Xiongnu, Xianbei, Tang, Han, Sui, Jurchens, Manchus and others. For example their tactic of invading Song through Si Chuan was slow in progress compared to the rapid conquest of this territory by Sui, Han and Tang armies employing the same flanking strategy. Their approach to the Jin was a lot slower in process than the Jurchen Bliztkrieg a century ago that took Song and Liao. Their number gap with enemies isn't all that great compared to the Jurchens, which annililated Liao and Northern Song with merely initially 20,000. Nor to Duo Er Guen's Manchu troops which swept through the central plain with only 100,000. The only thing made mongols famous is their battle record quantity not quality.
"You haven't answered my last question though. I admit that Korea was not as strong as China or Mongolia, but if Wa Japan is on the poll then Korea sure as hell deserves to be."
My point was neither should be. Instead there should be on the poll empires such as Xiongnu, Tujue, and Liao instead
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demon
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Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 17:01 |
| Yes yet they never surrounded the sui emperor the way the TuJue did. |
But keep in mind that Koguryo repulsed Sui when Sui was at its height. There is a difference between fighting a whestler and when he broke his arm.
| Koguri is a vassal of the Wei, the Wei emperor granted it official titles just like it did to Wa Japan. |
Can you write down the chinese symbol for wei? Just got curious..
| Tibetan aggression began in 670 and in the memorial to the Tang emperor, an official clearly state that the conquest of Korea is secondary to the much more threatening Tibetan menace. |
It doesn't make up a good excuse for the "strongest nation" at that time running away at a country trifle their size 
Edited by demon
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Grrr..
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coolstorm
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Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 00:08 |
"But keep in mind that Koguryo repulsed Sui when Sui was at its height. There is a difference between fighting a whestler and when he broke his arm."
Sui was a short-life dynasty not regarded as a strong one by Chinese. It was overthrown and replaced by the Tang. It never had a height.
"Can you write down the chinese symbol for wei? Just got curious.."
It's kinda hard to write for me. But, if you know something about the three kingdom period, the kingdom that cao cao's son built is called wei.
"It doesn't make up a good excuse for the "strongest nation" at that time running away at a country trifle their size"
When it's strong, it is strong. The US is a big country dominating the world today. Do people in Europe say anything about it being strong because of its size?
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sephodwyrm
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Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 00:55 |
| But keep in mind that Koguryo repulsed Sui when Sui was at its height. There is a difference between fighting a whestler and when he broke his arm. |
Wrong. Hopelessly wrong. The Sui Empire has already underwent 7 years of tyrannical rule under the Emperor Yang of Sui. The preparation to attack Korea took nearly 1 year and thousands already died or deserted even before reaching the designated meeting point for the Sui army. The Sui army of 1138000 men (not 2 million) were composed mostly of unwilling men. Again, thousands deserted and died when their supplies ran out and they're not even halfway in their journey to the designated meeting point.
Together with a tyrannical emperor with almost no military mind and refuse to listen to his own generals for advices, the expedition seemed doomed for failure for starters. A quote: "The entirety under heaven became a great chaos due to the Emperor's ambition to conquer Korea."
But note how the Tang army, decades latter, could destroy Bai Ji/Paekche (百济 and Gao Ju Li/Koguryo (高句丽 with much fewer men.
This is the Chinese symbol for Wei: κ (sorry for the insensible mistake)
Edited by sephodwyrm
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"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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ROKMC
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Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 14:21 |
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I think you mean Baekje and Koguryeo, not Baekje and Shilla. Keep in mind though that it was a Shilla Tang alliance that conquered Baekje and Koguryeo.
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ChineseManchurian
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Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 14:38 |
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Korean can not be the strongest Kingdom in acient age, that is not possible anyway. to be a strong power you need technology, more land, more resource, more people, Korean only got technology and it is only for the war, the crossbow unit in Korea is like the machine, good but very very slow.the turtle ship only defeat the Japanese army, and Japanese do not even have navy yet, it is all the pirates to be the navy. But keep everything away, I believe Korea is a strong country, but you can not expect too much, other words to say it it is too nationalism. If we stay here and debate history you can not be nationalism, it must have a base line for what are you talk about. Like you say Korean crossbow are the best, I agree. You said Korean have fist heaven cavalry in the world, I agree, but you need a limit for your nationism, even a lot of Chinese are not expecting China beyond America become the super power in the world, as they could, make up your mind, then think about it.
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I/eye
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Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 15:21 |
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I'm going to say that Korea was not the strongest kingdom, but I must also say that Turtleships kicked ass and under Yi Sun Shin, could have kicked butts of any navy in the world
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sephodwyrm
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Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 15:40 |
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Even if the Tang and Xing Luo/Silla () are allies, remember that Silla is on the brink of extinction as a result of Paekche invasion. Looks like China saved Silla's ass.
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"Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
"Not what goes into the mouth that defiles the Man, but what comes out of the mouth" Matthew 7:12, 15:11
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