Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Table of Nations (Genesis 10)

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 671
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Table of Nations (Genesis 10)
    Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 14:58
(1.)  My research over the last 2 yrs has found that some of the traditional/orthodox identifications of the names in the Table of Nations are possibly wrong. So it seemed good to me to put out the topic for people to debate and give their opinions/evidences/discoveries.

(2.)  Also, in light of the latest theories on "genetic/ethnic" (PC for racial) and and linguistic origins & developement we may soon be in a place where we can confidently identify the 3 sons of Noah with racial and linguistic super-/families. I am hoping some of you others will have somethings to contribute/say here (after the disappointing no replies/responses to my similar names topic in hist amusement subforum), and I myself will in coming posts in this topic/thread also give some of my own hunches/findings on these 2 points/questions.

(I hope this chart posts alriight without mucking up spacing/alignments.)

Noah/madjnun.
|
Japheth.
|-Gomer
|          '-Ashkenaz(im); Riphath; Togarmah.
|-Magog/Gog/Og
|-Madai
|-Javan
|         '-Elishah; Tarshish; Kittim; Dodanim.
|-Tubal
|-Meshech/Mash
'-Tiras.

Noah/madjnun
|
Ham/Cham/Kham
|-Cush/Chus
|                 |-Seba
|                 |-Havilah
|                 |-Sabtah
|                 |-Raamah
|                 |             '-Sheba; Dedan
|                 |-Sabteca
|                 '-Nimrod
|-Mizraim
|            |-Lud(im)
|            |-Anamim
|            |-Lehabim/Lub(im)
|            |-Naphtuhim
|            |-Pathrusim
|            |-Casluhim
|            |              '-Philistim
|            '- Caphtorim
|-P(h)ut
'-Canaan
             '-Sidon; Heth; Jebusites; Amorites; Girgash*tes; Hivites; Arkites;
               Sinites; Arvadites; Zemarites; Hamathites.

Noah/madjnun
|
Shem/Seth
|-Elam
|-Asshur
|-Arpachshad/Arphaxad
|  '-Shelah
|       '-Eber/Heber
|               |- Peleg
|               '-Joktan
|                   '-Almodad; Sheleph; Hazarmaveth; Jerah; Hadoram; Uzal;
|                    Diklah; Obal; Abimael/Mael; Sheba; Ophir; Havilah/Emlak;
|                     Job(ab).
|-Lud(im)
'-Aram
    '-Uz; Hul; Gether; Mash/Meshech.

Noah
|
Shem
|
Arpachshad/Arphaxad
|
Shelah
|
Eber/Heber
|
Peleg
|
Reu/Ragau
|
Serug
|
Nahor
|
Terah/Azar
|-Har(r)an
|             '-Lot
|                  '- Moab; Ben-Ammi.
|-Abram/Abraham
|                         |-Ishmael
|                         |             '-Nebaioth; Kedar; Adbeel; Mibsam; Mishma;
|                         |               Dumah; Massa; Hadad; Tema; Jetur; Naphish;
|                         |                Kedemah.
|                         |-Isaac
|                         |         |-Jacob/Israel
|                         |         '-Esau/Edom
|                         |                            '-....
|                         |-Zimran
|                         |-Jokshan
|                         |             |-Sheba
|                         |             '-Dedan
|                         |                        '-Asshurim; Letushim; Leummim.
|                         |-Medan
|                         |-Midian
|                         |          '-Ephah; Ephir; Hanoch; Abida; Eldaah.
|                         |-Ishbak
|                         '-Shuah.
'-Nahor
         |- Uz
         |- Buz
         |- Kemuel
         |            '- Aram.
         |- Chesed
         |- Hazo
         |- Pildash
         |- Jidlaph
         |- Bethuel
         |             '- Rebekah; Laban.
         |- Tebah
         |- Gaham
         |- Tahash
         '- Maacah.


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 07-Jun-2006 at 19:42
"Community Fluoridation" = Communism. It is wrong/evil/slavery for the elite & common majority to force some of us non-rich to eat water with alot of fluoride every meal every day.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 671
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 19:39
Some examples of my new/other's old identifications include:

Lehabim => Nekhab (cognate with Negeb/Negev) (or Rahab) not Libya.
Lud(im) => Luristan or Lydia. (Cp also Nod?)
Lubim => Nubia or Libya.
Laban = Lebanon (cp Leshan?) or Albania (Trans-Caucasian).
Pathrusim = Atur-res (Pathros).
Asshurim = Asir.
Madai => Mari or Media or Mardi, Magyar (pronounciation).
Elam => Ahlamu (Aramean), not Elamtu.
Dodanim => Dardanelles not Rhodes.
Elishah => Pelasgian/Hellas (cp Elis, Eleusis, Elysium) or Elche or Alshe (Alzi/Lazica), Anshan, not (Cyprus).
Jetur = Ituraea or Jethro or Getulia or Geshur.
Riphath => Riffians or Rephaim (Rapuwai), Rhaetia, not .
Dedan => Dhu Raidan/Aden.
Ishmael = Main or Mari or .
Bethuel => Bithynia.
Mash/Meshech => Damascus, mt Mashu (cognate with Meru and Macchu Picchu), Mari, Massagetae, Mysia, Moesia, Meshwesh, Mexico, Sumasti (Subartu/Suedin), mt Masis, not Moscow.
Eber => Iberia (Transcaucasia), Habor, Hebrew, Habiru, Ebla, Cabiri, Subartu.
Magog => Magi, Magan, Magyar (tho pronounced ), Magos, Macae, Mahra, Makran, Mykenae, Mecca, Ma'an.
Cush = Kesh/Kush, Bit-Agusi, Caucasus, Kassites, Khuzistan, Hindu Kush, Kushana, Kur, Kish.
Tubal =
Kittim = Keftiou, Cathay, Scythians.
Javan = Ionians, Jaminus, Jamnia, Java, Japan, Sevan, .
Tarshish = Tartessos/Tarhuntassa, Tarsus, Tarraconensis, Taurus.
Phut = Putaya, Buto, Pythia, Bhutan, Punt.
Nimrod = Namri, Narmer, mt Nimush (Nisir), Ninurta, Nibiru, Nimruz, Nimrud, .
Anamim = Namu, Jenam, Janhamu.
Philistines = Palestine, Falasha, Pelasgians, Pali, Persians, Frisians.
Caphtorim = Kaptara, Keftiou, Egypt, Cappadocia.
Hamathites = Hamazi, Carchemish, Hama.
Kedar = Cedraei, Gedrosia, Gadeira/Agadir, Kedarus.
Nebaioth = mt Nebo, Nabataeans.
Serug = Sargon, Sarku, not Syria.
Reu = Rages, Deucalion.
Peleg => Pelasgians, Palaites, Paphlagonia, Phrygia, Belgae, Phoenician.
Abimael => Main, Mari.

Note that the r/d and n/l and l/r and s/t (and b/sh) interchanges are known of in Hamito-Semitic but generally not considered hitherto when studying the Table of Nations. The r/sh interchange is my own discovery and is undeniably prooven.

A third question I forgot to put in opening post was: In light of developments/discoveries in last no of years, to what extent can the table of nations still be considered to be limited to the near/middle east or not? On the one hand the table is truly supposed to represent all the nations of the whole world, but on the other hand the nations spread out/sprouted from the original region/nations.
(Most people in this forum seem to be evolutionists and sceptics (cp Atlantis) so I don't know if this topic will get going. But consider that the table of nations can have historical/scientific value regardless of whether you believe in the religious message of the bible.)


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 07-Jun-2006 at 19:46
"Community Fluoridation" = Communism. It is wrong/evil/slavery for the elite & common majority to force some of us non-rich to eat water with alot of fluoride every meal every day.
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 04:36
Gomer - Cimmerians
Magog - unknown
Madai - Medes
Javan - Greeks (or specifically Ionians)
Tubal - Tabal
Meshech - Phrygians
Tiras - unknown
Ashkenaz - Scythians
Riphath - unknown
Togarmah - Tilgarimmu, Tegerama
Elishah - Hellas, Greece
Tarshish - Tartessus?
Kittim - Cypriots?
Rhodanim - Rhodians?
Cush - ancient Ethiopia
Mizraim - Egypt
Put - Libya
Canaan - Palestine
Seba - unknown
Havilah - central Arabia? northern Cush?
Sabtah - unknown
Raamah - either in Arabia or Ethiopia
Sabteca - unknown
Sheba - southern Arabia
Dedan - northern Arabia
Ludites - unknown
Anamites - in Egypt
Lehabites - Libyans (of Egypt?)
Naphtuhites - southern Egypt
Pathrusites - northern Egypt
Casluhites - in Crete?
Philistines - Philistines
Caphtorites - Cretans
Sidon - Phoenicians
Hittites - Hattians?, IE Hittites?
Jebusites - hill Amorites?
Amorites - eastern Palestine, etc.
Girgash*tes - in Canaan
Hivites - in central Palestine
Arkites - Phoenicians of Arqa
Sinites - Phoenicians of Shianna
Arvadites - Phoenicians of Arvad
Zemarites - Phoenicians of Simirra
Hamathites - Hittites of Hamath
Elam - Elamites 
Asshur - Assyrians
Arphaxad - Arrapkhans
Lud - Lydians
Aram - Aramaeans
Uz - Aramaeans in/or near Edom
Hul - Aramaeans of unknown region
Gether - Geshurite Aramaeans?
Meshech - Aramaeans near the Kedarites?
Shelah - unknown
Eber - Hebrews?
Peleg - unknown
Joktan - southern Arabs
Almodad - unknown
Sheleph - unknown
Hazarmaveth - Hadramaut
Jerah - unknown
Hadoram - unknown
Uzal - near Damascus?
Diklah - unknown
Obal - unknown
Abimael - unknown
Sheba - Sabaeans (southeastern Arabia)
Ophir - southeastern Arabia?
Havilah - west-central Arabia?
Jobab - unknown
Back to Top
DayI View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2408
  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 05:40
Hmm, i can be wrong but some medieval historians said that one of the Japhets son's name whas Turk, "Tur" is what whas called by the Persians to one of Japhets son. Also i found a translation of one of the medieval sources of Ulug Begh, here:

Ulug Big, Muhammad Taragay ibn Sahruh
An account of the kings, the descendants of Osman, who now reign in the kingdoms of Room* and Zung,* and who are now called Khoongar, and are said by some to be descended from Aghooz Khan.

Agreeably to the relations of the best historians, it is established that the Aghooz Khan, who is the fifteenth ancestor in lineal ascent from Sool負aun Osman Khan, is a modern prince, and originally derived from Cheen the son of Japhet. On the contrary, the Aghooz Khan, of which an account has been given in this book, is one of the patriarchs or ancients, and descended from Turk, the son of Japhet. The ascending genealogical line from Osman Khan to Japhet is as follows:

Osman Khan, the son of
Artogrul Khan, the son of
Suliman Khan, the son of
Kya Alp Khan, the son of
Kuzul Boogha Khan, the son of
Yanud Khan, the son of
Ai Kootloogh Khan, the son of
Toor Ghar Khan, the son of
Keeltoon Khan, the son of
Bai Sunkoor Khan, the son of
Baki Agha Khan, the son of
Soor Ghar Khan, the son of
Took Timoor Khan, the son of
Basook Khan, the son of
Kook Alp Khan, the son of
Aghooz Khan, the son of
Bai Soob Khan, the son of
Yulwaj Khan, the son of
Bai Buk Khan, the son of
Toghrul Khan, the son of
Ai Tooghlimush Khan, the son of
Toochung Khan, the son of
Artook Khan, the son of
Fukyari Khan, the son of
Buktimoor Khan, the son of
Tooruj Khan, the son of
Yumake Khan, the son of
Kuzulboogha Khan, the son of
Yamook Khan, the son of
Bash Boogha Khan, the son of
Toghrul Khan, the son of
Tai Khan, the son of
Subookh or Subooneej Khan, the son of
Koor Tulmush Khan, the son of
Jar Soogheh Khan, the son of
Kara Jad Khan, the son of
Balchuk Khan, the son of
Amood Khan, the son of
Koomash Khan, the son of
Kureh Ooglan Khan, the son of
Suliman Khan, the son of
Koor Chool Khan, the son of
Koor Noghan Khan, the son of
Bai Timoor Khan, the son of
Kowi Khan, the son of
Mukri Yumunish Khan, the son of
Mukri Kowi Khan, the son of
Macheen Khan, the son of
Cheen Khan, the son of
Japhet.

This is the ascending line of the family of Osman to the prophet Noah, on the faith of tradition.


It is known that all the Ottoman sultans had a such big ancestry-three wich did go back to prophet Noah.
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2006 at 17:28
It was actually very common for medievel rulers to claim their origins to the sons of Noah.  Arab rulers claimed geneologies back to Ishmael, son of Abraham, for instance.  European rulers claim descent from any of the sons of Japhet.  The problem with such "unbroken" bloodlines is that they are purely Medievel in origin.  In the case of "Turk, son of Japhet", it is purely an add-on.  All manuscript materials of the earliest part of the Bible do not mention "Turk".  It then goes to reason that the "Table of Nations" is simply a review of the world as known by the Hebrews, which was simply the Middle East, the Levant, Anatolia, northeastern Africa, and the shores of the Mediterranean.  They did not know about more northerly Europe, central and eastern Iran, India, southeast Asia, China, Mongolia, and central Asia, much less any of the Americas. 
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 671
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 02:28
There are some web sites that have some of the sort of medieval and ancient geneaologies & king lists you 2 mentioned. Before my notes got destroyed 1-2 yrs ago I had some others collected from books over the previous 15 yrs. From memory there was Anglo-Saxon kings from Sceaf born in ark. Histion son of (Japet?) (Bulfinch). Georgians from Japet. Adites from Ham. Hayk/Ara/Armenak from (Togarmah?). (10?) Turk tribes from Togarmah (= "Turk" son of Japet). Cp mediaeval Khazar geneaology. Menelik from Solomon (really = Menes of Egypt &/or moon god).
They resemeble the Greek geneologies from Zeus/etc, and Celtic from Troy//(Magog?). It doesn't mean the traditions are wrong/doesn't disproove the bible, it seems that they just grafted different cultural traditions on to the table of nations eg Tur of son of Feridun/Thraetaona becomes son of Japet (incidentally 3 sons of Feridun do match 3 sons of Noah), and Istaevon son of Mannus becomes Histion s of (Japet?) (again 3 sons Mannus match 3 sons Noah).
(Query: Ogus Khan was only mediaeval times wasn't he?) (I'm not sure if it was a mistake but I think I've also seen Khan (Kon/King?) spelt Kham in one or more sources?)
Those web pages are:
www.tertullian
www.ldolphin.org/franz-ellawz.html
www.earth-history.com/Various/Compendium/index.htm
www.cga.net/coglinks/wcglit/hoehcompendium/hhc1ch20.htm
http://cgca.net/coglinks/wcglit/hoehcompendium/hhc2toc.htm

PS Interesting coincidence: dark Laman(ites) of Book of Mormon resembles Olman/negroid Olmecs!
"Community Fluoridation" = Communism. It is wrong/evil/slavery for the elite & common majority to force some of us non-rich to eat water with alot of fluoride every meal every day.
Back to Top
DayI View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2408
  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 07:13
Thanks Sharrukin and Arthur Robin for your responces, anyway Arthur-Robin it is believed that Oghuz Khaan lived not in medievals,


According to many historians, the usage of the word "Oghuz" is dated back to the advent of the Huns (220 BC). The title of "Oghuz" (Oguz Khan) was given to Mete[citation needed], the founder of the Hun Empire, which is often considered the first Turkic political entity in Central Asia.

Also in the 2nd century BC, a Turkic tribe called O-kut or Wuqi 呼揭, 呼得, 乌揭, 乌护 who were described as a western hostility of Huns (referred to in Chinese sources, Shiji, 110 and Suishu, 84) were mentioned in the area of Irtysh River, in present-day Lake Zaysan. It must be noted that the Greek sources used the name Oufi (or Ouvvi) to describe the Oghuz Turks, a name they had also used to describe the Huns centuries earlier.[citation needed]

A number of tribal groupings bearing the name Oghuz, often with a numeral representing the number of united tribes in the union are noted.

The mention of the "six Oghuz tribal union" in the Turkic Orhun inscriptions (6th century) pertains to the unification of the six Turkic tribes which became known as the Oghuz. This was the first written reference to Oghuz, and was dated to the period of the Gokturk empire. The Oghuz community gradually grew larger, uniting more Turkic tribes prior and during the Gokturk establishment. [citation needed]

Prior to the Gokturk state, there are references to the Sekiz-Oghuz ("eight-Oghuz") and the Dokuz-Oghuz ("nine-Oghuz") union. The Oghuz Turks under Sekiz-Oghuz and the Dokuz-Oghuz state formations ruled different areas in the vicinity of the Altay mountains. During the establishment of the Gokturk state, Oghuz tribes inhabited the Altay mountain region and also lived in northeastern areas of the Altay mountains along the Tula River. They were also present as a community near the Barlik river in present-day northern Mongolia.

Their main homeland and domain in the ensuing centuries was the area of Transoxiana, in western Turkistan.

This land became known as the "Oghuz steppe" which is an area between the Caspian and Aral Seas. Ibn al-Athir, an Arab historian, declared that the Oghuz Turks had come to Transoxiana in the period of the caliph Al-Mahdi in the years between 775 and 785. In the period of the Abbasid caliph Al-Ma'mun (813 833), the name Oghuz starts to appear in the works of Islamic writers. By 780, the eastern parts of the Syr Darya were ruled by the Karluk Turks and the western region (Oghuz steppe) was ruled by the Oghuz Turks.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghuz

Also Arthur-Robin, the word "Kham", "Kam" or "Qam" is used for Shamanistic teachers, preachers by Turkic people (also Koreans i think).
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 671
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 09:33
Thanks for that about Ogus/Oghuz. Actually I asked somewhile ago on this or another forum if any one could tell me about Ogus Khan who "invaded Egypt" (Fitzgerald-Lee) but no one responded (I also asked about Tamo Vasta and Tulay Zanadu), so I did a google search and it came up with what seemed to be mediaeval references. Adrian Room also mentions an Ogas/Ogus as 1st patriarch of Uigurs but I wasn't sure if it was the same person. (The name may relate to 1st king Cush?) Tani Jantsang mentions the Iki-Ogus who she tries to connect with Hyksos. (Cp Og of Bashan, Gog/Magog.)
----
Sidon = Zidon/Tidana, Sardinia, Sion, Sirion, Cydonia (Crete), Sithonia (Thessaly), Cedraei.
Arvadites = Ruad/Aradus(Tripoli), Arvad/Arpad/Arad.
Jobab = Argob, Gubi, Gobi, Upe, Jaffa, Joppa, Haifa, Al Jawf/jawb/Jawa, Zobah, Negeb, Shuba.
Uzal => Awzal (Sana), Ugarit, Gozan, Italy.

Edited by Arthur-Robin - 11-Jun-2006 at 09:38
"Community Fluoridation" = Communism. It is wrong/evil/slavery for the elite & common majority to force some of us non-rich to eat water with alot of fluoride every meal every day.
Back to Top
DayI View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2408
  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jun-2006 at 11:14
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

Thanks for that about Ogus/Oghuz. Actually I asked somewhile ago on this or another forum if any one could tell me about Ogus Khan who "invaded Egypt" (Fitzgerald-Lee) but no one responded (I also asked about Tamo Vasta and Tulay Zanadu), so I did a google search and it came up with what seemed to be mediaeval references.
only i remember in the medievals whasnt there any "invation" but a Oghuz slave-army (mamelukes) purchased by the Abbasid's. Also The Oghuz Turks had various alternate spellings such including Oguz, Oğuz, Ouz, Okuz, Oufoi, Guozz and Ghuzz. And there is still a tribe in current moldovia and romania wich theirs name is "Gagauz" wich means "sky oguz" in Turkish.

Adrian Room also mentions an Ogas/Ogus as 1st patriarch of Uigurs but I wasn't sure if it was the same person. (The name may relate to 1st king Cush?) Tani Jantsang mentions the Iki-Ogus who she tries to connect with Hyksos. (Cp Og of Bashan, Gog/Magog.)
Hmm interesting, it may correct that of the Uighurs but i had never heard of iki-ogus (wich means two-oguz), and who is or are Hyksos?


Arvadites = Ruad/Aradus(Tripoli), Arvad/Arpad/Arad.
Arpad is one of the kings of Avars or Bolgars (Turkic tribe who came along volga-danube rivers and ruled balkans for century's). 
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 00:53
Hayk/Ara/Armenak from (Togarmah?).
 
Yes, Armenians claim descent from Togarmah.
 
Sidon = Zidon/Tidana, Sardinia, Sion, Sirion, Cydonia (Crete), Sithonia (Thessaly), Cedraei.
Arvadites = Ruad/Aradus(Tripoli), Arvad/Arpad/Arad.
Jobab = Argob, Gubi, Gobi, Upe, Jaffa, Joppa, Haifa, Al Jawf/jawb/Jawa, Zobah, Negeb, Shuba.
Uzal => Awzal (Sana), Ugarit, Gozan, Italy.
 
Sidon is a no-brainer.  It was Sidon, the great Phoenician seaport.
 
Arvadites rightfully refer to another Phoenician seaport, Arvad, which the Greeks called Aradus.
 
Jobab is problematic, however, going by the rule of association, which the Table of Nations seems to follow, it would be located somewhere in Arabia
 
Uzal is also problematic, but an identification with Awzal (Sana) would be within an acceptable parameter.  It fits a location within Arabia, better than my idea.
Back to Top
DayI View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2408
  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 08:32
Someone replyed this on "questions" section of this forum:

Originally posted by visitor

is hebrew togharma name used for tocharians?because it is said that when khazars' king  wrote a letter to hasdai ibn sharput   he mentioned that his people originated from the togharma like the other Turks did.(13th tribe-arthur koestler)however togharmas are blond-red haired, blue eyed and not Mongol originated is it possible that presence of them was wellknown in middle east?were they mentioned as togharma?


http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12639

So Khazars claimd that they originated from Togarmah?
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 671
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jun-2006 at 19:53
Thanks both of you (and visitor).

DayI:
Thanks I didn't know about visitors/questions forum.
So which Ogus spelling is considered the most correct or original/oldest? There is also Germanic ogres and Uggr (Odin) from Indian Ugra. I've still got to try and find The Key by Cohane which apparently has stuff on 'Og' names like Ogham, Magog, Gog, Bog (Bey?), etc.
Do you mean you haven't heard of Hyksos, or else who do scholars think they were? The Hyksos/"Shepherd Kings" were the unknown foreign rulers of Egypt (and Crete) in the 15th & 16th dynasties who are most usually thought to be Semites or Aryans tho Sharrukin told recently me the latter belief was only due to their horses and chariots. I myself don't yet have an opinion on who they were, but their name seems similar to Kassites or even Khazar!? Velikovsky believes they (Aamu) were Amalekites (Omaya).
Iki-Ogus was apparently a Turanian people/tribe (iki smimilar to Hurrian/Greek suffix) name but I don't have anymore info than that on them esp since I lost my 15yrs studies.

Sharrukin:
I actually had in mind some of your comments from the various debates we have had eg Ugarit 2ndary possibility for Uzal since you said "near Damascus?"; Ahlamu for Elam as alternative to Elam(tu) since you said the latter spoke not Semitic language.
It seems you may have done similar: last time when I said Elishah could be Hellas not Cyprus you sided with Cyprus saying Greece was already Ahhiyawa/Achaea or Javan/Ion, but I noticed above you said "Hellas?"
Unfortunately unlike the others the Awzal connection is one of the ones I can't claim credit for having adopted it from a "book" in Logos/Libronix bible software scholar's library.
Perhaps Job has connection with Ayyubids? or Libyan king/island Juba?

visitor:
Fitzgerald-Lee mentions Ghenghis Khan had (red?) hair and green eyes, and Encycl Americana or Britannica mentions some Turkic tribes had blond hair and blue eyes. But Tani Jantsang disputes the Ghenghis Khan info saying he was pure Mongol/Tatar, tho she also declares that Turanians have reddish hair and skin that can get as white as paper.
The Togarmah/Turk idea seems to be that they supposed a metathesis/transposition of the r and the g/k, or via Tocharians.
Togarmah = Teucrians (Troy), Tocharians, Tjekker/Zekarbaal/Yeharbaal (Dor/Hamath/Sea Peoples/Sth Amer fan palm/Wen-Amun), Tilgarimmu, "Turks", Tegarama, Dzungaria.
(Notice the double connection Teucrian/Troy - Tjekker/Dor.)


Edited by Arthur-Robin - 12-Jun-2006 at 19:54
"Community Fluoridation" = Communism. It is wrong/evil/slavery for the elite & common majority to force some of us non-rich to eat water with alot of fluoride every meal every day.
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 00:06
I actually had in mind some of your comments from the various debates we have had eg Ugarit 2ndary possibility for Uzal since you said "near Damascus?";
 
Only because there is one scripture which shows a relationship between Damascus and Uzal (Ezekiel 27:19).  Thus in order to fulfill both an obvious location somewhere in or near Arabia, with a place near Damascus, I was thinking perhaps the Syrian Desert.  The problem is, of course, that the scripture merely talks about a trading relationship and cannot really be used as evidence of a possible location.  Awsal sounds pretty much more appropriate since we know that one of Uzal's brother's Hazarmaveth is probably Hadramaut, also in southern Arabia.
 
Ahlamu for Elam as alternative to Elam(tu) since you said the latter spoke not Semitic language.
 
You are right, the Elamites did not speak Semitic languages.  But, we have many examples of "kin" in the Table of Nations whose languages had no bearing on their relationships with other "kin".  I think that while generally the Table of Nations follows some sort of ethnology, its primary purpose is to show which nations were geographically assocated with other nations, despite linguistic differences.  How can a Hittite be a Semite?  How can a Philistine be a Hamite? 
 
In the case of "Elam" we note that his immediate "brothers" were Asshur and Arphaxad, names cognizant with northeastern Mesopotamian nations of the Assyrians and Arrapkhans.  Since southern Mesopotamia is treated differently, the next possible assocation would be Elam, on the fringe of Mesopotamia, itself.  We also note that the one ruler of Elam which we have a name for in the Bible, Chedorlaomer, bares a striking resemblance to known Elamite names.  The first element resembles Elamite Kudur- (or Kutir-) and the second element resembles Lakamar, the name of an Elamite deity, hence a reconstructable *Kutir-Lakamar.  We don't have records of this ruler, however we do have records of Elamite kings such as Kutir-Nahunte, Kutir-Shilkhakha, and Shilkhina-Khamru-Lakamar.   

It seems you may have done similar: last time when I said Elishah could be Hellas not Cyprus you sided with Cyprus saying Greece was already Ahhiyawa/Achaea or Javan/Ion, but I noticed above you said "Hellas?"
 
I think I understand your confusion.  There is both a time-element as well as an place-element for the usage of the three terms.  The earliest of these terms was Ahhiyawa.  It was used by the Hittites to designate the Greeks of the late Bronze Age.  The contemporary Egyptians used the term Akawasha (or Ekwesh) to designate the same people.  It may have been derived from Akhaiwoi, (the Achaeans) one of the Homeric names of the Greeks of the late Bronze Age.
 
When trade was restored in the wake of the discommunication caused by the Sea People invasions, the Phoenicians reencountered Greeks in the Mediterranean, mostly likely the Ionians, which in the period in question were known in their Greek dialect as the Iavones, hence the Phoenicians knew the first Greeks they encountered as Yavan.  This name was then adopted by the greater part of the Middle East for all Greeks. 
 
When I was speaking about Elishah as Hellas, I was speaking in terms of Elishah/Hellas as being one of the lands of Yavan/Greeks.  The Assyrian name of Cyprus was Iadnana (which of course came from Phoenician, Yavan).  However, the Table of Nations already had a name for Cyprus, the Kittim (or Chittim).  It was one of the lands of Yavan just as well as Elishah, since both Kittim and Elishah were brothers.  "Hellas" meant European Greece, not Asiatic or island Greece.
 
Togarmah = Teucrians (Troy), Tocharians, Tjekker/Zekarbaal/Yeharbaal (Dor/Hamath/Sea Peoples/Sth Amer fan palm/Wen-Amun), Tilgarimmu, "Turks", Tegarama, Dzungaria.
(Notice the double connection Teucrian/Troy - Tjekker/Dor.)
 
According to the Table of Nations most of the siblings and other relatives of Togarmah were located in Anatolia.  Hence, Togarmah was more than likely located in Anatolia.  The Hittites knew of a place in the eastern part of its empire near the Euphrates, called Tegerama.  Later, the Assyrians knew a place in the same region called Tilgarimmu.  A hint to its When Ezek. 38:6 locates Togarmah in the "far north" it is more than likely it is refering to a position from the stand-point of the Promised Land.  The "far north" could have meant any point beyond the Taurus Mts., and if one follows the coast of the Mediterranean beyond the Taurus Mts., one finds himself near the Euphrates where the Hittite and Assyrian evidence locates Togarmah.
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 671
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 02:38
Moses says they were family branches and languages not just geographical. But many ancient lands had previous inhabitants (natives/indigenes/aborigines) and it could be the names get adopted like British for English. Heth may be pre-/proto-Hattite/-Hittite rather than IE Hittite (brachycephal incidentally), and name may relate to mount Khazzi which may relate to Attis. (Was there a place near Mari with similar name?) The problem is Semite and Hamite etc are modern labels.

Semite (modern): Akkad, Babylon, Assyr, Canaan, Phoenic, Hebrew, Punic/Carthag, Arab, Ethiopia, Ugarit, Aramaic, ....
Semite (biblical): Aramaic, Assyri, Hebrew, Chaldean, Elam/Ahlamu, Lydia/Luristan.

Hamite (modern): Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia.
Hamite (biblical): Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia, Canaan, Babylon, Sumer, Akkad, Assyria, Philistine, Phoenician, Hittite.

The key is perhaps that original Hebrews were either Mediterranean/Orientalid or Armenid/Assyioid, so Semites were either Med or Armen. Egyptians were also Mediterranean, so that could mean that either (1) that the Semites were Medit (and later had Armen blood mix in) and Egyptians later had Medit blood mix in, or (2) Semites/Hebrews were Armenoid and later had Medit blood mix in (eg in bondage cp Asenath/Hagar/Zipporah) and the Hamites may have been Mediterranan or also not (also have Medit blood mixed in later)?
Another key question did Hebrews adopt Canaanite lang (if so must be said so somewhere in bible) or did Canaanites adopt Hebrew?

The Pelasgians (Philistines?) could be Hamites via Libya?

According to Sitchin and one of those early authors (Pinches? Maspero? Rawlinson?) Chedorlaomer has been found in insriptions/records.

Perhaps the t- of Togarmah is a prefix like til-? There are Germa... names in Anatolia but I lost list I once made.

Wasn't Ekwesh/Ahhiyawa was used for one of sea peoples? J Jewell reckons Hivite = Achaean.

Yeah Sanchuniathon mentions Jaminus, Kotilus and Kedarus which Keller thought were sailors names but I immediately saw they were people names Javan/Jamnia, Getulian? and Cedraei/Kedar (Moses)/Gadeira (Plato/Necho)/El Khadir (Moslem/Arab).

Elishah could also be Pelasgian with p- prefix as in Egyptian?

I'm not convinced that Kittim is Kition/Citium. I prefer Kittim = Keftiou/Catti, Scythian/Cathay.

How is it linguistically possible for dn/Iadnana to become/from v/Yavan? Iadnana sounds like Adana on near by Turkey coast.

Do you think Kathar of Egypt/Crete in Phoenician myth could be Kaptara/Caphtor?
"Community Fluoridation" = Communism. It is wrong/evil/slavery for the elite & common majority to force some of us non-rich to eat water with alot of fluoride every meal every day.
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 03:32
Wow, I'm really impressed. If rather lost as to what your exactly doing.

I think your identifing historical people with their names in the bible and then attempting to match them to the bibles geneology. Is that right?
If that it the case I have a couple of questions.

1) Which interpretation of the flood are you using? I have been told several by Christians:
The whole world was flooded in 2100BC thereabouts, with only Noah and his family surviving.
The whole world was flooded at an unknown time, with only Noah and his family surviving.
The above two, but with several others surviving as well.
The muslim story (which christians are increasingly adopting I find) that only Kurdistan/Armenia was flooded and many others survived. This story is often backed up by archelogical evidence placing it at 10000BC ish.

2) How accurately can you take (or are you taking) the bible's geneology? Isn't it rather unreliable?
In the second vatican council the OT was labelled "containing incorrect and obsolete material"


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 13-Jun-2006 at 03:33
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 671
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 11:13
I am approaching it on the one hand that I believe that the bible (and certain interpretations such as global flood) is true for various reasons (all the different types of evidences in the world/life I have seen/heard) and  am trying to discover ("proove") missing pieces of the puzzle (theory) that will synthesise the bible, myth, history, linguistics, archaeology, etc. But on the other hand I recognition that bible/I/evidence could be wrong (trying to discover the truth).

Like I/my evidence could be wrong and must be tested, so can the evidence that alledgedly conflicts with (interpretations of)the bible. So the same sorts of questions should be asked like how accurate is radiometric dating methods? (Sphinx, Ice Age, Cro-Magnon, etc). Aren't they rather unreliable? Various scholars have shown radiometric dating to incorrect.
Did the Vatican council actually say what the incorrect/obsolete material was?

The names in Genesis 10 could be both/either persons & /or peoples.

The evidence for Global Flood/8 souls is stronger than evidence for local flood(s)/other survivors, and includes:
Flood is universal myth (Noah, Deucalion, Manu, Hud, Utnapishtim, Maui, Japanese, Yima, Ymir, Bennu, Nun, Numatorum, etc.
Egyptian Ogdoad matches 8 souls in ark.
Only one Flood but more than one Ice Age (10000 was last one).
-> The (whole) bible seems to make it clear that the flood was global not local (and gives no hint of any other survivors*), the use of the different word for "earth" is rather explained by the whole earth excepting the ark and its (8) passengers (man = dust). Traditions of the Cainites not being effected by the flood, and of the giant Og of Bashan surviving the flood by perching on top of the ark or due to his grt height (cp Ogyges) may rather be mythologised references to the wives/mother(s) of Noah/son(s)*, which perhaps also explains traditions of Noah having fallen angel blood in contradiction to the bible saying that Noah was of pure, uncontaminated lineage (also cp traditions that Adam was a giant & taught by angel Rasiel). (It may possibly be implied that mixing went on with animals too (why were animals wiped out/saved too) cp clean & unclean, and there are creation myths that have composite beasts/monsters eg Omoroka/Thalath.)  *2 alledged arks have been discovered to date. *Nimrod was a Gibbor (giant); perhaps also traditions can be explained in that the tower of Babel was alledgedly built to raise men up to heaven &/or to bring the gods down. The repeated references of survivors finding refuge in the heights may be any/all of: Mtns of Ararat, Tower of Babel (trad built as refuge in case of another flood), giants, Mars/heaven; since bible implies only low/hills before/during flood (cp Maui).

I personally believe the flood was ca 3000 and the creation ca 5000 from a synthesis of a number of ancient calendar traditions (Irish, Jewish, Maya, Alexandria, Anglo-Saxon chronicle, etc.)
"Community Fluoridation" = Communism. It is wrong/evil/slavery for the elite & common majority to force some of us non-rich to eat water with alot of fluoride every meal every day.
Back to Top
DayI View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 30-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2408
  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 12:29
Originally posted by Arthur-Robin

Thanks both of you (and visitor).

DayI:
Thanks I didn't know about visitors/questions forum.
So which Ogus spelling is considered the most correct or original/oldest? 
I think "Ok-uz" is one of the correct vorms of his orijinal, "ok" means arrow in Turkic lang and "uz" i think it whas called to Turks self, in begin medievals or earlyer the Romans called the first Turkic people they met as "uz" people. But the pronouncing of the word "oghuz" changes from place to place, like i said "Gagauz" is sky oghuz translated in Turkic, gag=g闥 means sky or blue, auz = oghuz and there are many variations of it.


There is also Germanic ogres and Uggr (Odin) from Indian Ugra. I've still got to try and find The Key by Cohane which apparently has stuff on 'Og' names like Ogham, Magog, Gog, Bog (Bey?), etc.
Do you mean you haven't heard of Hyksos, or else who do scholars think they were? The Hyksos/"Shepherd Kings" were the unknown foreign rulers of Egypt (and Crete) in the 15th & 16th dynasties who are most usually thought to be Semites or Aryans tho Sharrukin told recently me the latter belief was only due to their horses and chariots. I myself don't yet have an opinion on who they were, but their name seems similar to Kassites or even Khazar!? Velikovsky believes they (Aamu) were Amalekites (Omaya).
Iki-Ogus was apparently a Turanian people/tribe (iki smimilar to Hurrian/Greek suffix) name but I don't have anymore info than that on them esp since I lost my 15yrs studies.
From what i know is that the arabic world believe the "gog" and "magog's" are monglians self, because in Qur'an there stood a phrase about a people called gog and magog who'd bring destruction to the Islamic world. Arabs thought or do still think they are Mongolians becuase the Mongolians who entered the capital of the arabic calipha (baghdat) brought a huge destruction to the islamic world.

Now about that "iki-ogus" name, im very sure about that its an Turkic tribe name;

first because there where many Turkic tribes with such similar names "toquz-oghuz" toquz = nine (9) , "oniki-oghuz" oniki = twelve (12).
 
second if you look at the word iki-ogus "iki" = two (2) and "ogus" = oguz



visitor:
Fitzgerald-Lee mentions Ghenghis Khan had (red?) hair and green eyes, and Encycl Americana or Britannica mentions some Turkic tribes had blond hair and blue eyes. But Tani Jantsang disputes the Ghenghis Khan info saying he was pure Mongol/Tatar, tho she also declares that Turanians have reddish hair and skin that can get as white as paper.
The Togarmah/Turk idea seems to be that they supposed a metathesis/transposition of the r and the g/k, or via Tocharians.
Togarmah = Teucrians (Troy), Tocharians, Tjekker/Zekarbaal/Yeharbaal (Dor/Hamath/Sea Peoples/Sth Amer fan palm/Wen-Amun), Tilgarimmu, "Turks", Tegarama, Dzungaria.
(Notice the double connection Teucrian/Troy - Tjekker/Dor.)
Hmm the founder of the Khazar empire whas of the same clan (ashina) of the founders of Kok-Turuk empire, they where described by some chinese sources as blue eyed (Bi Mu) and heavy body haired people and by an other chinese source wich i forgot from where i did read it stood they where despicted as red/blond haired people.

Arthur-Robin or Sharrukin can you give me some typical Hyksos names or are there anything left from them till now?
Back to Top
Arthur-Robin View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 23-Feb-2006
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 671
  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2006 at 14:55
Magog could well be Magi or Magyar (despite d pronounciation) then?
Some sources connect Gog and Goth (cp Gu/Guti/Gutian/Gutium, Goiim/Goyim). It is orthodoxly connected with a king Gagi of Anatolia.

Hyksos names do mostly seem Semitic:
god - Sutekh (Tani Jantsang connects with Turan boar deity);
kings - Anat-her, Salitis, Yakobaam, Apachnan, Yakob-her, Khayan, Iannas/Ianassi, Bnon, Khamudy, Sheshi, Assis, Aseth;
peoples/tribes -  Aamu?, Aati?
"Community Fluoridation" = Communism. It is wrong/evil/slavery for the elite & common majority to force some of us non-rich to eat water with alot of fluoride every meal every day.
Back to Top
Sharrukin View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1199
  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2006 at 09:43
Moses says they were family branches and languages not just geographical.
 
But beyond Moses, one can see that some names just don't belong to others but rather are grouped together because of geographic proximity.  Canaan was Semitic, yet it was counted as Hamitic.
 
But many ancient lands had previous inhabitants (natives/indigenes/aborigines) and it could be the names get adopted like British for English.
 
The problem is that taking the Biblical timescale, we already have Semites bearing the Canaanite self-identification in the early Bronze Age. 
 
Heth may be pre-/proto-Hattite/-Hittite rather than IE Hittite (brachycephal incidentally), and name may relate to mount Khazzi which may relate to Attis. (Was there a place near Mari with similar name?)
 
We already know that Hattic was probably related to Caucasian languages, hence, again, not related to either Semitic or Hamitic. 
 
The problem is Semite and Hamite etc are modern labels.
 
True, however, we can observe that since the beginning of history the regions of Hamitic and Semitic languages has largely remained the same (until the time of the Arab invasions into Africa.)  There is no evidence of Hamitic languages native to Palestine and Syria, much less Anatolia.

Semite (modern): Akkad, Babylon, Assyr, Canaan, Phoenic, Hebrew, Punic/Carthag, Arab, Ethiopia, Ugarit, Aramaic, ....
Semite (biblical): Aramaic, Assyri, Hebrew, Chaldean, Elam/Ahlamu, Lydia/Luristan.
 
And the modern is what is observable

Hamite (modern): Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia.
Hamite (biblical): Egypt, Libya, Ethiopia, Canaan, Babylon, Sumer, Akkad, Assyria, Philistine, Phoenician, Hittite.

From the very beginning of history, many of these cultures already had different customs and language.  There is no way that Sumerian was related to Hamitic, for instance. 
 
The key is perhaps that original Hebrews were either Mediterranean/Orientalid or Armenid/Assyioid, so Semites were either Med or Armen. Egyptians were also Mediterranean, so that could mean that either (1) that the Semites were Medit (and later had Armen blood mix in) and Egyptians later had Medit blood mix in, or (2) Semites/Hebrews were Armenoid and later had Medit blood mix in (eg in bondage cp Asenath/Hagar/Zipporah) and the Hamites may have been Mediterranan or also not (also have Medit blood mixed in later)?
 
If it was just a case of "Mediterranean identity", then all Middle Eastern societies should have been more related to each other, than the Table of Nations demands.  Yet there are historical, cultural, and linguistic factors which set them apart.  These simply cannot be explained away by "racial" factors.  The modern view takes all these into account.   The Table of Nations, as it stands, transcends linguistic boundaries.  It, however on another hand, seems to group nations into geographical classifications.

Another key question did Hebrews adopt Canaanite lang (if so must be said so somewhere in bible) or did Canaanites adopt Hebrew?
 
The evidence of place-names seems to indicate that Canaanite had been the language of the land for a very long time.  If (as the Tradition says) the Hebrews came from another part of the Middle East, then it is more likely that they adopted the Canaanite language.

The Pelasgians (Philistines?) could be Hamites via Libya?
 
The identity of the Philistines is far too problematic to come to any solid conclusion.  The very word "Pelasgians" could be used generically to lable any "pre-Greek" or "native non-Greek" people regardless of origin.  As for the Philistines, their identity has been speculated to have ranged from being Luwians to being central Europeans. 

According to Sitchin and one of those early authors (Pinches? Maspero? Rawlinson?) Chedorlaomer has been found in insriptions/records.
 
That inscription is now read as In-Shammar.

Perhaps the t- of Togarmah is a prefix like til-?
 
Perhaps. 
 
There are Germa... names in Anatolia but I lost list I once made.


Wasn't Ekwesh/Ahhiyawa was used for one of sea peoples?
 
Yes.
 
J Jewell reckons Hivite = Achaean.
 
He ignores the rule of geographic association.  "Hivite" relates to a place in the hill-country of the Promised land.

Yeah Sanchuniathon mentions Jaminus, Kotilus and Kedarus which Keller thought were sailors names but I immediately saw they were people names Javan/Jamnia, Getulian? and Cedraei/Kedar (Moses)/Gadeira (Plato/Necho)/El Khadir (Moslem/Arab).
 
If Sanchuniathon has anything similar to the Table of Nations, then Jaminus and Kotilus are in the Arabian/Syrian desert, just like Kedarus (Qedar).

Elishah could also be Pelasgian with p- prefix as in Egyptian?
 
Unlikely.

I'm not convinced that Kittim is Kition/Citium. I prefer Kittim = Keftiou/Catti, Scythian/Cathay.
 
There are four references to Kittim in the Bible.  According to Genesis 10, Kittim is associated with Javan (Greeks).  We know that Greeks inhabited Cyprus.  Scythians and China are therefore excluded.  According to Numbers 24:24, ships come from there to subdue the Middle East ("Eber and Asshur").  Neither the Scythians nor the Chinese were sea-powers.  That simply leaves Cyprus.

How is it linguistically possible for dn/Iadnana to become/from v/Yavan? Iadnana sounds like Adana on near by Turkey coast.
 
The Assyrian name for Adana, was Que, and so Adana is excluded.  In the Assyrian records, Iadnana was known specifically as "in the midst of the sea" and as "Iamani" (Greek).   < oops, I got it wrong - it is Yamani which is the Assyrian loan from Phoenician Yavan. >  Another Assyrian inscription lists 10 city-kingdoms of Iadnana, including those of "Ituandar, king of Pappa" (Eteander of Paphos), "Pilagura, king of Kitrusi" (Pylagoras of Chytri), "Unasagusu, king of Lidir" (Onasagoras of Ledri), "Damusu, king of Kuri" (Damasus of Curium), and "Ekishtura, king of Edi'al" (Aegisthus of Idalium).  These cities were on Cyprus.

Do you think Kathar of Egypt/Crete in Phoenician myth could be Kaptara/Caphtor?
 
Caphtor would be better id'd with Crete.  In the Egyptian Late Kingdom times they traded with the Keftiu, and Minoan objects have been found in Egypt during those times.  The "ships of Keftiu" of the Egyptian inscriptions were prised ships for the sailing of the Mediterranean, just as the later "ships of Tarshish" were prised for their length and durability. 


Edited by Sharrukin - 14-Jun-2006 at 10:21
Back to Top
Omar al Hashim View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5697
  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2006 at 22:22
I am not sure if the vatican council was refering to a specific part or not, this quote was provided to me by a book that was examining the bible scientifically. The author was talking at lot about problems in the geneology and chronology of the bible.

In view of the human situation prevailing before Christ's foundation of salvation, the books of the Old Testament enable everyone to know who is God and who is man, and also in the way in which God, in his justice and mercy, behaves towards men. These books, even though they contain materital which is imperfect and obsolete, nevertheless bear witness to truely divine teachings


Otherwise I know that I am bunni Ismael (family of Ishmael) as are many northern and central peninsular arabs. Which is why many arab rulers claim decendecy from Ismael as its these same families that have been circling the power circuits for a while now.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 14-Jun-2006 at 22:24
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.203 seconds.