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Winterhaze13 View Drop Down
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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Russian Revolution
    Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 16:54

What I'd like to discuss is whether the October 1917 Bolshevik Revolution was a Revolution with a popular front or was it a Coup without any real support.

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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 17:57
Does anyone think that Lenin could have approached his quest for power a little differently and therefore destine Russia for a better fate?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 18:06
Originally posted by Winterhaze13

What I'd like to discuss is whether the October 1917 Bolshevik Revolution was a Revolution with a popular front or was it a Coup without any real support.


It was a coup. After the coup the elections that were scheduled still found place, becayse the Bolsheviks expected to win them, but they didn't.
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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 21:06

If i remember correctly, the revolution wasn't the kind that is often imagined as the entire Russian working population running towards the Winter Palace to overthrow the Romanovs or something like that. Only a small fraction of people caused the revolution and were on its side. The people themselves weren't on the side of Lenin but they also hated the czar so the entire revolution thing seemes to me like a quick-action revolution by a fraction of the population who were either the part of the future Communist party or very few disgruntled employees and soldiers. They just got lucky (lenin and his gang i mean) as there were many other revolutionists and partys who could have taken power, but they just got their leg between the door before others and closed it skilfully. I could even go as far as to say that the large majority of Russia had no idea the revolution was happening or going to happen as they had no support for Uljanov. There were dozens or ultra-socialist "other Lenins" with their own future for Russia and the support of the people was spread around all of them( as socialism was the going fashion among the peasants and workers) so they had no single leader as Lenin is sometimes thought to have been for the Russian proletariat.

This is how i think about it.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 06:27
Don't forget there were 2 revolutions. In the first one the czar was deposed, and an temporary government (of lvov and kerenski) was installed. A few weeks later there was another revolution, the coup in which the Bolsheviks took power.
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 08:30

May I suggest what should be common knowledge: Never, ever in human history, any revolution was the uprise of the whole population of a given country, nation, social group, town, family. Even the national liberation revolutions of the 19th century were uprisings of a relatively small group of people, who'd win or not the hearts of the people (the "silent majority").

All revolutions in the span of history have been conducted by a relatively small (in comparison to the total population of the given society) group of people, determined enough to put their own personal safety, security and existence at the stake, so they can win a better future for themselves, their relatives, colleagues, children.

It would be disillutional to believe that for instance 100% of the French took the streets to get rid of the Monarchy. Or during the American revolution, only a few of the quite many inhabitants of the British colonies in America revolted, but they determined the faith of their entier nation. Same with the Soviet revolution: only a small fraction of the total population revolted, winned the people's heart (because of the oppressive, authoritarian, unjust nature of the existing regime) and they managed to take the country towards the direction they wished.

So, yes, it was a revolution, genuine and extremely succesful Too bad the "ongoing revolution" went so bad... landing in the hands of ruthless opportunistic psychopaths like Stalin...

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  Quote Kalevipoeg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 11:15
Yes, so very true and in Russia the real revolutions only started after the soviets took power. Over dozens and dozens of revolutions and uprisings per day around the vast areas of Russia took place during 1917-1921. and even on from there. Nobody seems to have mentioned that about Russian history, atleast not enough, and that might have left the impression to the larger most of the people aware of the bolshevik revolution that Lenin was the only one revolting against the czar and then leave the impression of the entire Russian popultaion of being hardcore Leninists or something like that althought that is hardly the case.
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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 17:38
Well, let's not forget about Kerensky's party the Social Revolutionaries. Hypothetically speaking, if they had not been usurped by the Bolsheviks, they would have probably modernized Russia and made it a Liberal Democracy.
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  Quote sephodwyrm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 21:15
How can you be so sure? Kerensky (if I remembered correctly) wants to drag on that disastrous war against Germany which is impossible to win. Lenin sort of gained the upper hand because many people hated the Kerensky government for continuing the war.
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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2004 at 12:07
Well, let's keep in mind that Russia pulled out of the war just months before Germany surrendered. Although it was a disasterous war I think Russia did not gain anything from retreat.

Edited by Winterhaze13
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  Quote Slickmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Nov-2004 at 19:49
Originally posted by Winterhaze13

What I'd like to discuss is whether the October 1917 Bolshevik Revolution was a Revolution with a popular front or was it a Coup without any real support.

Well, like most things, the issue you ask started as a small thing but then it gained more and more support. It started out as a bunch of peaceful protests in 1904 and into 1905 that led to Bloody Sunday in January 1905, news of that massacre spread and this scenario provoked strikes in towns over working conditions and wanting better pay. Peasants in the countryside went to arms thus starting the Russian Revolution of 1905.chemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>

Nicholas wanted to keep the people happy by introducing the nations first elected legislation but this did not work in the long run so socialist parties, workers and peasants were still unhappy with the imperial regime and came the Russian Revolution of 1917 overthrowing the Czarist family>>

 >>

 

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  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 14:23
The 1905 revolution,and when tsar forces shooted at public in a demonstration caused the public lose their mystic belief for the Tsar also.

Edited by TheDiplomat
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  Quote dark_one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 22:14
 Well while not really that many people supported Lenin, it was considerably more than anyone else. The white army was a coalition of several part and they had only 40 thousand troops, most of them Czarist officers while the Red Army had 4 million raw recruits. Russia was around 150 million so that is around 2% of the populace. Also the people didn't take the winter palace. It has been recently discovered that the people made 2 attempts at charging hte palace but were defeated. Then the Finnish nationalists took it to further persuade Lenin to free them(which he did so smart move for them). Kerensky stayed in the war becasue of the $300 million that the allies promised hm in return for upholding the eastern front. But as soon as the ammo ended the front collapsed. Also Bolsheviks pulled out of the war because the people had neither the spirit nor the weapons to fight it, and Germany would have just occupied Russia and replaced the Bolsheviks. They did stall the negotiations for several months.
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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2004 at 12:31
Hypothetically speaking of course, what if Russia had stayed in the war. Could they have won it, what would they have gained. Let's consider how that would have effected the relationship between Russia and the western powers. Russia was completely ignored by Britain and France in the 20s and 30s, which probably prompted them to sign the Nazi-Soviet Pact.
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  Quote dark_one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Nov-2004 at 20:25
 Nazi Soviet fact was fake. Boths ides thought it would give the other a false sense of security. Russia probably would have broken up with Liberalism into states like Ukraine, Poland and the others that now exist. Also without Stalin's brutal industrialization done much poorer in WW2.
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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2004 at 15:47
What if Stalin never signed the Pact, would that mean that Germany and the Soviet Union would face immenent war? How would the course of History change? Would the west stay out of it?
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  Quote dark_one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2004 at 16:42
 War was inevitable. Europe would watch, and then fight the winner. Winner would probably win if Russia and probably lget into stalemate if Germany.
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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2004 at 17:05

The Russian Revolution is tragic because it was turned from a workers revolution into a brutal dictatorship, which Russia continues to fight against today. The Russian revolution could have had as much an impact on world history as the French revolution 150 years before.

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  Quote dark_one Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2004 at 21:22
 I wonder the effect of Jews here. 36 out of 38 top party posts has got to mean something.
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2004 at 08:26
Originally posted by Winterhaze13

The Russian Revolution is tragic because it was turned from a workers revolution into a brutal dictatorship, which Russia continues to fight against today. The Russian revolution could have had as much an impact on world history as the French revolution 150 years before.

 

But it had. In the short run, at least. It pretty much shaped the world of the 20th century.

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