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About "Bagatur" word, question.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: About "Bagatur" word, question.
    Posted: 28-May-2006 at 11:18

Bagator word  came Trkish origin?  Trkish and Mongolian "Baga" means young and strong man,hero ,  "Tur" means is Trkish castle, (in old Trkish)

Bagatur word, by and by, change, and it means only "Hero" and enter a lot of languages,

İn Farsi, "Bahadur "(in Farsi  Kahraman), Mongolian "Baator" , İn Russian "Matur" it be ,good, beautiful, İn Maygar "Baatur" (Btur, with mark a,maybe false, long a)

This knowledge is true? And in Maygar language "Tur" means today; a man who is important person, is it true?
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Posts: 230 		  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 07:10

The word came into Turkic from Iranian, it is related to Iranian bhaga, god. Cf. Baghdad, god-given in Iranian. The Turkic title beg has the same origin.

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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 07:59
Are you sure its not the other way round, that it entered Iranian? If Baga is used in Mongollia its likely the word is Altaic.
 
If it means Strong man its more likely to be Baga, because as you said the similar word means God in Iranian.


Edited by Bulldog - 16-Jun-2006 at 08:00
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Posts: 267 		  Quote Tangriberdi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2006 at 15:47
BEK>BEG>BEGH> and finally BEY(landlord, lord, landowner, folk's owner, possessor) is a very old Turkish title . It is akin to Mongolian Baaigaan( Able and capable man, powerful male, Rich , Wealthy). It is too difficult that a word from Persian comes first into Turkish and than later from Turkish to Mongolian. If it was true, the mongolian loan word should have reflected the Turkish sound system BEG . But Mongolian word is Baaigaan. There is no direct contact so it is impossible. BAAIGAAN( some other versions  are Baagaan or baaiaan)or BEG is Altaic, most probably. May be Iranic Baga and  Altaic Beg or Baaigaan have diffrent roots but close meanings. Not possible?

Edited by Tangriberdi - 16-Jun-2006 at 15:58
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Posts: 1831 		  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2006 at 04:06
The early exact Iranian word is 'bege' and not 'baga'. Old Iranian sound system tends to rely on 'a' rather than 'aa'. Consider English terms 'back' and 'water' where the first one is close to Iranian. Anyhow, the word should be devided to two parts: be+ge. An 'r' existed in the ending of the first part. It was ber+ge. And 'ge' is the slighter form and equal to German use of 'ke'. Totally together, the word is 'berge' which means 'great' in old Iranian texts. It was used to describe a great quantity or quality. 
'Baga' is just a later distinction from the orignal version 'berge'.
 
And 'Bay' is the exact altaic form which is the source for 'baighan', 'baian,'beyik, and 'bek'. The difference is just like the Turkic 'qocho' which means 'big' and 'qochiq' (one who has become big). The use of 'ghan' in Mongolian is described in this way.
 
So, as it turns out, the orignal forms are quite differnt 'bay'/baighan/... and
'berge' (which has changed to baga; anyhow the word has not been used for more than 700 years in Iran).
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 08:55
Originally posted by Tangriberdi

BEK>BEG>BEGH> and finally BEY(landlord, lord, landowner, folk's owner, possessor) is a very old Turkish title . It is akin to Mongolian Baaigaan( Able and capable man, powerful male, Rich , Wealthy). It is too difficult that a word from Persian comes first into Turkish and than later from Turkish to Mongolian. If it was true, the mongolian loan word should have reflected the Turkish sound system BEG . But Mongolian word is Baaigaan. There is no direct contact so it is impossible. BAAIGAAN( some other versions  are Baagaan or baaiaan)or BEG is Altaic, most probably. May be Iranic Baga and  Altaic Beg or Baaigaan have diffrent roots but close meanings. Not possible?
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know Mongolian language is not turkic.
And I know also, that in Sakha language it sounds like Bootur.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 10:19
Well either way your pointing in the same direction.

Mongolian is an Altaic language, Turkic and Mongolian aswell as other language's root is Altaic languages.

Sakkha language is Turkic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakut_language

It has 363,000 speakers

The Sakha Republic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakha   
    

Edited by Bulldog - 26-Jul-2006 at 10:20
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 18:07
Originally posted by Bulldog

Well either way your pointing in the same direction.
 
I pointed to separate things not related to each other. Smile 

Mongolian is an Altaic language, Turkic and Mongolian aswell as other language's root is Altaic languages.
 
 

Sakkha language is Turkic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakut_language

It has 363,000 speakers 
 
I know. My wife is one of these speakers Tongue  And she cannot understand any mongolian but a lot (f.e. counting or some basic things) of Turkmen, Kazakh and others languages who are turkic.  Smile
 
Regarding mongolian language
 
 
and
 

The Mongolic languages are a group of thirteen languages spoken in Central Asia. Some linguists propose the grouping of Mongolic with Turkic (of which Turkish is a member) and Tungusic as Altaic languages, but this hypothesis is not universally agreed upon.

The best-known member of this language family, Mongolian (in Cyrillic orthography as used in Mongolia, Монгол Хэл, and in the vertical Uygur-derived script as used in Inner Mongolia, China, mongγol kele), is the primary language of most of the residents of Mongolia, and is spoken by around 2.5 million people in Mongolia, Russia, and Inner Mongolia.

So, turkic family of languages is different from mongolian. On the other hand
 
Mongolian is a Mongolic language. The Altaic theory proposes that the Mongolic family is a member of the larger Altaic family, which would also include the Turkic and Tungusic languages, and possibly Japanese and Korean. Related languages include Kalmyk spoken near the Caspian Sea and Buryat of East Siberia, as well as a number of minor languages in China and the Mogholi language of Afghanistan.
 
If you understand altaic family including Japanese and Korean, then Mongolian could be in this family. As well as English and German Big smile
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Aug-2006 at 09:40
bagatur is spelled ''batur'' in uyghur.it exactly comes form "bater''''bat er'' the man who conquers.in mongolian,it became long sound like ''bagatur''
in this word,-aga -is spelled as long a,another word is begejing for beijing,in this word ege is spelled as longe.
so mongolians whrite it as bagatur,but read as baatur.
persian people borrowed the bagatur form of this word and changed it into bahadur.
that's it.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 17:15

I support Uigur-aryan's post.

I believe original form of the word is Mongolian. Many ancient Mongol nobles had the same name -Baatar-written like Bagatur, as Uigur-aryan explained

in this word,-aga -is spelled as long a,another word is begejing for beijing,in this word ege is spelled as longe. so mongolians whrite it as bagatur,but read as baatur.

Chinggis Khaan's father's name was Esugei Baatar (bagad(t)ur).

Capital city of Mongolia is Ulaanbaatar in Mongolian. It can be written in Old Mongolian script as -ULAGAN-BAGATUR.

Modern Mongolian Cyrillic letter it can be written as УЛААНБААТАР which is simply ULAANBAATAR.

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I don't believe the following explanation which may be a play of word or coincidence

Originally posted by ___________

Bagator word came Trkish origin? Trkish and Mongolian "Baga" means young and strong man,hero , "Tur" means is Trkish castle, (in old Trkish)

Baatar (bagatur) is single word which means brave fighter, hero or noble man. As Mongol conquest stretched to west, the word was adapted into local languages like- İn Farsi, "Bahadur, same with Indian Moghols. Even Russians have lots of folk tales about "богатырь"-BOGATYR' which simply means hero, brave fighter.

 
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Posts: 1831 		  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Sep-2006 at 03:59

Let's say, it was a common ALTAIC word and not specific to Mongolian. Cause Turkic also have got Baqatyr which means the same as Mongolian.
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 03:53

zoriqo:

it is not uighur,it is uyghur.

Uyghurs prefer to write uyghur instead of uighur.because the spelling would be more correct in that case.

in case of arising misunderstandings, i hope everybody write Uyghur if he wants to write sth about Uyghur.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 04:51
The iraninan language was far older than thses others. the word comes from Iranian bahadur.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 04:51
If they are too be related that is.
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Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 05:57

What kind of reasoning is this?

If you claim a word to belong to a language, you have to find the root to prove it. Even if we presume that there is age difference between languages, a younger language can surely loan a word to the oldest language.

Uyghur-aryan proved the word to be Turkic with very good reason, if you don't agree, then prove it to be Persian or Mongolian by analysing the root of the word.



Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 08:58
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

The iraninan language was far older than thses others. the word comes from Iranian bahadur.
Vivek Sharma:
     Iranian languages are very old. It is a fact. But Turkic languages are also as older as Iranian, maybe more older. But no one can prove. Turkic people were not dumb when you guys could speak. They also spoke a certain language. If you look at Iranian languages pre Mongol invasion, You couldn't find the word "bahadur". This word exactly originated from the mongolian form "bagatur". Mongolian form also originated from Turkic 'bat er">batur. When mongolians write bagatur,they read it as Baatur, cause <-aga->in mongolian spelled as long <a>.
       Another word is <begejing> for chinese <beijing>. It is also spelled as <beejing>.(ee is long e). So when they borrowed this word, they preferred to spell long vowel. there are a lot of long vowels in Mongolian and Manchu-Tongus. It is easier for them to pronounce just like this. So Mongolians changed Turkic < batur> into <bagatur>, but spellded as <baatur>. Iranians borrowed mongolian < Bagatur> and changed it into <bahadur>, Again the Turkic people borrowed <bahadur> into their language. Interestingly both forms of this word are existing in most turkic languages. One is original form <batur> and the other is modified form <bahadur>. People here are talking about it's origin and original form.
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Posts: 1831 		  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 10:48

Well, I'm not sure wether this is Turkic or Mongolian, but 'baghatyr' seems to be more proper in Turkic, rather than 'batur'. Mongols do dinstinguish 'aga' and 'a', but Modern Mongolian has got rid of 'aga'. They've shortened it by saying simply 'a' instead of 'aga'.

By the way, 'bahadur' can't be devided into meaningful parts in Persian which makes it difficult to believe it is of Iranian origin.


Edited by gok_toruk - 20-Sep-2006 at 10:50
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 10:34
Any way ,I support Hector's post .Every person can stay with his opinion ..
He already proved his point ,why don't you guys still believe it ?LOL

Edited by Visual - 21-Sep-2006 at 11:06
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Posts: 1831 		  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 10:51

It's like saying 'Tangri' is of Turkic origin. These words remains controversial as long as we don't know much about proto Altaic language.
Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Sep-2006 at 09:32

It is absolutely not like that. Mongolic and Turkic root words still are quite different. you can surely prove with appropreate meaning derivation from the roots.

Either make a history or become a history.
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