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    Posted: 22-May-2006 at 08:51
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corsair522 ... i'm seeing two possibilities for derivation of 'amorite.'  I wonder which ONE is correct.   Yet, of course, there could be two over-lapping origins for 'amorite'
 
 
..a/  a fellow named 'emer' as father of amorites .... emer apparently a descendent of noah.   However, i find next to nothing about emer
 
 
..  ..  b/  'amurru'  meaning 'west.'   I find this
suggestion the most often.   We don't think of amorites being located in west, but it would all depend on where one's 'center' was located.
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2006 at 02:39
a/  a fellow named 'emer' as father of amorites .... emer apparently a descendent of noah.   However, i find next to nothing about emer
 
The Bible is quite specific as to the origin of Amorites - they are descendants of Canaan (Gen. 10:15).  The reason for this association is that the Amorites were located in the interior hill country of the Promised Land, while the Canaanites were located on the coast. 
 
..  ..  b/  'amurru'  meaning 'west.'   I find this
suggestion the most often.   We don't think of amorites being located in west, but it would all depend on where one's 'center' was located.
 
The 'point of view' was from Babylonia.  As the Martu (Sumerian) or the Amurru (Akkadian), they were "westerners" having a nomadic culture but eventually came to dominate the greater part of the Middle East from various powerful kingdoms such as Babylonia, Assyria, Mari, Khana, Yamkhad, and Qatna.  In Babylonia and Assyria, they were Akkadianized.  At Mari and Khana they were Aramaicised.  Yamkhad and Qatna received a large Hurrian population but the ethnic name survived in Syria as the name of a kingdom at times under Egyptian or Hittite domination.  The name eventually came to mean the greater part of Syria itself from, again, the Akkadian point of view. 
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Posts: 781 		  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2006 at 10:01
As it was already said, their name derives from the Akkadian word "Amurrum" which in turn derives from the Sumerian term "Martu" meaning West. I have heard the amorite language survives only in form of personal names because Amorites themselves, wrote in Akkadian.

Edited by Perseas - 23-May-2006 at 10:06
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2006 at 22:12
Yes, the Amorites of Mesopotamia adopted Akkadian quite quickly.  The only evidence of Amorite is in their names, the names of their deities, and the names of their tribes.  These sets of evidence marks Amorite as closer to Canaanite and other western Semitic languages than to Akkadian.
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Posts: 781 		  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 17:00
I am aware that Amorites and Canaanite had some common gods in their pantheons. For example the female goddess Ashera who can be find also in many Canaanite myths. Also is true that based on their rulers names we can conclude their origin was Western- Semitic without forgeting they had also Hurian elements.
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2006 at 02:35
Yes, the Hurrian element seemed to have met the Amoritic element by about 2000 BC, probably to the north of Babylonia (where we already know of a Hurrian presence, since about 2300 BC).  Mari remained Akkadian-speaking even as the Amoritic element probably took over by about 1850 BC, (and Hurrian texts were found there by about 1800 BC), but at Shubat-Enlil (under an Amoritic chief), further to the north in the Khabur river-system, there was a a mix of Semitic and Hurrian elements, just as was the case, by about 1750 BC in Yamkhad (Aleppo, Alalakh).
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Posts: 781 		  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2006 at 16:34
It seems there is a mix of Canaanite and Hurrian ruler names in the interior cities while in the coast south of Lebanon the names are exclusively West Semitic.
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2006 at 10:32
That may be generally true.  I can't think of any exception, but the distribution of Hurrian (and Mitannian) names seem to stretch from interior Syria down into Judah.  The name of the king of Jerusalem (in the Tell Amarna period), Abdi-Kheba bares the name of a Hurrian deity.  If the biblical Horites were Hurrians, then we can speak of a Hurrian migration into the south of Judah. 
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Posts: 781 		  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2006 at 13:34
Most accounts i have read are addressing Horites as Hurrians. There are also accounts identifying Horites with Hivites - a branch of them seems to be the Gebeonites of Bible - and one, if not  the most famous of them, is Hamor who was killed by Simeon and Levi. Other accounts identify Hyksos as being Hurrians or at least a major component of them. Its interesting Hyksos means "ruler of foreign lands" suggesting perhaps this link.
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Posts: 781 		  Quote Perseas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-May-2006 at 17:23
 
Found some more interesting infos coming from the "International Standard Bible Encyclopedia" by Geoffrey Bromiley
 
"Some scholars suggest that the two very similar names "Hivites" and "Horites" have been exchanged and simply reverse them. But such a desperate expedient is hardly satisfactory. Others, accepting the LXX reading of Horites for Hivites in Gen 34:2 and Josh. 9:7 as correct, regard the two as synonyms, or hypothesise two homophonous names of different origin, the Semitic "Horites" of Edom and the non-Semitic "Horites" (ie. "Hurrians"} of north-central Cisjordan. The biblical writers attempting to make a distinction, replaced the "Hor-ites" (ie. Hurrians) of Cisjordan with "Hivites", a name of local origin. Although preferable to the first hypothesis, this view is weakened by its reliance on textual variants that are most probably mistaken readings. Thus, the Bible uses the names Hivites and Horites in a consistent manner to designate two peoples, and, apart from Gen. 34 2 and Josh. 9:7, the LXX agrees with the MT in the more than twenty other places where the two names occur. Further, several versions support the MT (Aquila and Symmachus in Gen. 34:2: the Old Latin, the Syriac, the Ethiopic translations, and several MSS of the LXX in Josh. 9:7). It is also important to note that the Sheschmites in Gen. 34 have Semitic names and are identified as Canaanites in v. 30; and the Gibeonites are identified as Amorites in 2 S. 21:2.

One more recent hypothesis views "Hivite" as a spelling variant or confusion for "Horite." The evidence for this view is that "Hivites" an ethnic term unknown elsewhere, occurs in twenty of the twenty-two lists of conquered peoples, while "Horites" (Hurrians) known to have been present in Cisjordan. never occurs in the lists, and that the names Hivite and Horite are close in biblical Hebrew hwy and hry. This last point, however, is weak, since the w and r were never easily confused in Hebrew.

The most recent (and most likely) hypothesis to date treats the question as a special case of the general problem of the use made by the Israelites of the nomenclature they met in Palestine when they occupied it. For Cisjordan they adopted the Egyptian administrative term for that region, '"Canaan," and they applied the term "Amorite" to northern and central Transjordan (as well as using it as a general term for all of Palestine, as they also used "Canaan"). Since the received nomenclature had no term for southern Transjordan (prior to the arrival of the Edom-ites), the Israelites used the term "Horite" i.e.. Hurru. another general and imprecise term in Egyptian usage for the whole region."
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Other accounts identify Hyksos as being Hurrians or at least a major component of them. Its interesting Hyksos means "ruler of foreign lands" suggesting perhaps this link.

While it may be true that the Hyksos may have introduced the chariot and other weapons which may suggest a Hurrian (or rather Aryo-Hurrian) origin, into Egypt, the names of the Hyksos kings (except those totally adopting Egyptian names) were all Semitic, suggesting perhaps that the "foreign lands" were merely adjacent to Egypt, Canaan, specifically. The Egyptians were using the term Hyksos since about the 20th century BC suggesting that the Asiatic was probably Semitic.

The most recent (and most likely) hypothesis to date treats the question as a special case of the general problem of the use made by the Israelites of the nomenclature they met in Palestine when they occupied it. For Cisjordan they adopted the Egyptian administrative term for that region, '"Canaan," and they applied the term "Amorite" to northern and central Transjordan (as well as using it as a general term for all of Palestine, as they also used "Canaan"). Since the received nomenclature had no term for southern Transjordan (prior to the arrival of the Edom-ites), the Israelites used the term "Horite" i.e.. Hurru. another general and imprecise term in Egyptian usage for the whole region."

The Israelites applied the term "Canaan" to the greater part of Palestine and Phoenicia (probably reflecting a very ancient usage). The earlier pre-Israelite Egyptian usage of the term had it restricted to southern Palestine with Gaza as the provincial capital. Northern Palestine and southern Syria were part of the Egyptian province of Takhsi, administered from Kumidi, and Phoenicia was the Egyptian province of Fenkhu, administered from Sumur.

The most recent (and most likely) hypothesis to date treats the question as a special case of the general problem of the use made by the Israelites of the nomenclature they met in Palestine when they occupied it. For Cisjordan they adopted the Egyptian administrative term for that region, '"Canaan," and they applied the term "Amorite" to northern and central Transjordan (as well as using it as a general term for all of Palestine, as they also used "Canaan"). Since the received nomenclature had no term for southern Transjordan (prior to the arrival of the Edom-ites), the Israelites used the term "Horite" i.e.. Hurru. another general and imprecise term in Egyptian usage for the whole region."

Yes, Khurru (or Khor) came to be applied to Syria-Palestine probably as a result of much Mitanno-Hurrian influence there, as well as an influx of Hurrian population originating from northern Syria, already present in the 18th century BC. If "Seir" was truly a "Horite" we have a mention of a tribe or state in the Negev called by the Egyptians, Sherri. If Sherri was Hurrian, than we have the southernmost extention of Hurrian migration.

How Amurru came to be applied to the greater part of Syria-Palestine is not totally understood, (unless Amurru became a self-identification for those descended from the original Amurru in the region) but we do know that there was a tribal state to the north of Palestine and east of Phoenicia which was a bone of contention between the Egyptians and the Hittites called Amurru. By the time of the 2nd Sea People invasion the term came to be applied to the greater part of Syro-Phoenicia.
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Posts: 937 		  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-May-2006 at 02:57
- Amurru was west but Marratu was east and Martu seems closer to the latter?
- Similar name Mount Meru (cf A-meru) is cognate with Mount Mashu with r/sh interchange between I-E and Ham-Sem.
- On Horites what about the Shasu-/Shemsu-Hor?
- Could the Aamu/Hemu be Amorites??
- Interestingly Canaan sounds a little similar to Kiengin/(Kingu?) (or Kenan?) There is the Arabic people/place name Kanacan.
- I think David Rohl gave evidence that there may have been horses and chariots in Egypt before Hyksos (cp also recent Aqaba find).
- Have not Hyksos also been called Aryans as well as Semites?
- "Foreign rulers" is only one translation of Hyksos.
- Could the "Amorites" strata of Jericho actually be the Israelites invasion?
- Could perhaps add to the discussion King Og of Bashan and King Sihon.
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 04:45
- Amurru was west but Marratu was east and Martu seems closer to the latter?
 
There is a correspondence between Sumerian Martu and Akkadian Amurru.  Therefore Marratu is excluded.

- Similar name Mount Meru (cf A-meru) is cognate with Mount Mashu with r/sh interchange between I-E and Ham-Sem.
 
The state of linguistics show no such correspondence.  As a matter of fact, studies of languages of the prehistoric period even exclude Hamito-Semitic from that superfamily of languages known as Nostratic which include such language families as IE and Dravidian.

- On Horites what about the Shasu-/Shemsu-Hor?
 
We don't know if we are talking about a whole ethnic group or simply a generic designation of Transjordanian groups of various origins.  There are some hints that they may be Semitic, however, they seem to appear all over eastern Syria-Palestine much like the Khabiru bands.  No conclusions can be made as yet.

- Could the Aamu/Hemu be Amorites??
 
The A'amu is the generic Egyptian name for any westerner.  It was used from the very beginning of Egyptian awareness of western lands, and therefore was used before the supposed "Amoritic invasions" of Syria-Palestine in the period 2100-2000 BC.

- Interestingly Canaan sounds a little similar to Kiengin/(Kingu?) (or Kenan?) There is the Arabic people/place name Kanacan.
 
I don't see any relevance comparing a place- and people-name to the name of a primordial Sumerian deity.  As for other comparatives, nothing much can be gathered considering that Semitic base-words can be applied to any form without being related.
 
- I think David Rohl gave evidence that there may have been horses and chariots in Egypt before Hyksos (cp also recent Aqaba find).
 
Rohl's chronological revisionism leaves too much to punch holes into, hence his datings of events are rather suspect.  As for Aqaba, I must point out that it is located on the other side of Sinai, very much outside of ancient Egypt. 

- Have not Hyksos also been called Aryans as well as Semites?
 
The only reason why they were called "Aryans" was because of the introduction of the horse and chariot.  However, the Egyptians had already referred to the inhabitants of Syria-Palestine as Hyksos since the time of the Execration texts.  By the time the Hyksos (which had been infiltrating the Egyptian delta peacefully for several centuries) had taken over northern Egypt, the chariot may have already been adopted by the Semites.  In Palestine, prior to the Hyksos conquest of Egypt, there was a pronounced militarization of the cities, acquiring new kinds of defensive walls and other innovations.  The chariot may have revolutionized Canaanite warfare.

- "Foreign rulers" is only one translation of Hyksos.
 
Regardless of the translation, the names of their rulers are decidedly "foreign"

- Could the "Amorites" strata of Jericho actually be the Israelites invasion?
 
Not quite sure which strata you are referring to.  The usual strata labelled as Amorite is that ill-defined strata which separate Early Bronze and Middle Bronze (sometimes called Transitional), c. 2100-2000 BC.  Nobody labels that the "Israelite invasion".

[quote]- Could perhaps add to the discussion King Og of Bashan and King Sihon.
 
These would be considered the Transjordanian extensions of the Amorites of the Judaean hill-country. 
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Posts: 937 		  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 10:27
-Perhaps another approach to the Amorite question is to ask where the deity name Martu/Amurru comes from with out assuming it was an eponym (as opposed to v-v). Mars/Martins/Maruta/Martu/Maruttash/Smertrios/etc (war/storm)?; Mercury/Martu (wind; shepherds)?; Morta/Mors/Mara/Morpheus/Amurru (death/sleep/dreams/west)? Yamm/Yima/Ymir/Amurru/Im (sea/stroms)? 
 
-Also do the Moors (and Mauretania/Mauritania) perhaps relate to the Amorites? (cp S Moscati).
-My findings are that there was definately an r/sh inchge betw I-E and Ham-Sem, how can anyone deny aner/nara 'man' = nasha/anesh/enosh 'man'?
-Name Hamor seems on the face of it similar to name Hammurabi perhaps?
-(Aqaba may (perhaps) be outside from anc Egypt but the chariot wheels in Aqaba are same as in Egyptian pictures.)
-(The orthodox chronology/"synchronisms" are as/more questionable as/than Rohl's, so do you treat the orthodox one(s) the same?)
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 00:26
-Perhaps another approach to the Amorite question is to ask where the deity name Martu/Amurru comes from with out assuming it was an eponym (as opposed to v-v). Mars/Martins/Maruta/Martu/Maruttash/Smertrios/etc (war/storm)?; Mercury/Martu (wind; shepherds)?; Morta/Mors/Mara/Morpheus/Amurru (death/sleep/dreams/west)? Yamm/Yima/Ymir/Amurru/Im (sea/stroms)? 
 
Why look at this much more complicated than it actually is?  The Sumerian ethnonym, MAR.TU comes from two words meaning "wagon" and "to be born", respectively, hence has the general meaning of "nomad".  The Akkadian word Amurru meant "westerner".  Since we know that they are designations for the same people, and that it was used as an ethnonym in the west, (i.e. western Mesopotamia, Syria, and Palestine) there is no need to try to get even deeper.  The name of the god, therefore, was a development of the name of the people.  It either was the personification of the nomad, or was at first the designation of whatever deity the Amorites worshipped (some connect it with the western deities, 'El, Ba'al, or Dagan) but which later became a proper name of itself, having been established properly into the Babylonian pantheon.
 
-Also do the Moors (and Mauretania/Mauritania) perhaps relate to the Amorites? (cp S Moscati).
 
No.
 
-My findings are that there was definately an r/sh inchge betw I-E and Ham-Sem, how can anyone deny aner/nara 'man' = nasha/anesh/enosh 'man'?
 
Anyone can take a few words and create "laws of interchange" for them.  However, linguists only use such laws in terms of Grimm's Law of "sound shifts" to illustrate how words develop from an earlier form to a later form.  Because of the fact that Semitic languages already had a word for man, "adam", some linguists see such comparisons, not as developments but as borrowings. 
 
-Name Hamor seems on the face of it similar to name Hammurabi perhaps?
 
Well, it is far from conclusive if the Hivites were Horites (Hurrians).  But, even if they were, it would not be surprising if they bore Semitic names, just as the Hittites of the Bible (though an IE people) also bore Semitic names.  The name of Hamor the Hivite, is a form similar enough with Hammurabi.  As a matter of fact, there was even a "Hammurabi" who was a ruler of a powerful Syrian state in the 18th century BC.  The Hivites may have been Amoriticised, or exactly the opposite, Hurrianized. 
 
-(Aqaba may (perhaps) be outside from anc Egypt but the chariot wheels in Aqaba are same as in Egyptian pictures.)
 
But is that so mitigating?  If the "wheels" are more ancient than the Egyptian ones, it only shows that the Egyptians adopted the chariot wheel form from the Hyksos.
 
-(The orthodox chronology/"synchronisms" are as/more questionable as/than Rohl's, so do you treat the orthodox one(s) the same?)
 
I would be the first to say that the "orthodox chronology" (of which there are many variants) is to be questioned, however, Rohl's chronology is far more radical, smashing together several Egyptian dynasties without regard to mitigating evidence, which he ignores. 
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I think there are 4 main sources referencing Amorites: biblical, Sumer-Akkadian, Egyptian and Hittite?
What is the range of earliest and latest references to the Amorites? Eg I think for Sumer-Akkad earlest ref is Akkadian dyn and latest Old Babylonian/Old Assyrian? For bible: earliest is Gen 10 "Amorites" desc of Canaan, and latest Joshua? (apart from the father/mother Amorite/Hittite verse somewhere).  The Hittites span between Akkadian and Mid Assyrian I think, so references to Amorites would be in that bracket.
But what about Egyptian references?
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I think there are 4 main sources referencing Amorites: biblical, Sumer-Akkadian, Egyptian and Hittite?
 
Yes.

What is the range of earliest and latest references to the Amorites? Eg I think for Sumer-Akkad earlest ref is Akkadian dyn and latest Old Babylonian/Old Assyrian?
 
For contemporary inscriptions, they range from c. 2300 BC (Akkadian) to Neo-Babylonian (c. 650 BC) as another name for Syria. 
 
For bible: earliest is Gen 10 "Amorites" desc of Canaan, and latest Joshua? (apart from the father/mother Amorite/Hittite verse somewhere).
 
Ironically the Table of Nations (as a contemporay document) would date to as late as 580 BC, making it the latest Biblical mention of the Amorites.  As to their existence (according to the narrative) the latest would be the reign of Solomon who employed the remnants as slaves (I Kings 9:20).
 
The Hittites span between Akkadian and Mid Assyrian I think, so references to Amorites would be in that bracket.
 
Hittite sources don't mention Amorites, but do mention the state of Amurru (c. 1360-1200 BC)

But what about Egyptian references?
 
The Egyptians mentions Amor and Amorite in the fairly limited sense of "Syrian" and the tribal state of Amurru, in the later Imperial Period (c. 1400-1200 BC)
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Posts: 937 		  Quote Arthur-Robin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 05:01
Do you know anything about the Martu and Dilmun connection mentioned in book:
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2006 at 09:44
Nope, sorry.  Unhappy
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