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Chinese aero industry is the No.1 in Asia

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  Quote bigtoothbrush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Chinese aero industry is the No.1 in Asia
    Posted: 16-May-2006 at 22:09
China is the only country in Asia that could independently produce advanced jet fighter right now. Specially in aeroengine area, China is at least 10 years ahead of any Asian country. The only 5 countries in the world that could produce upper t/w ratio 8 class turbofan are America, Russia, Britain, France and China. 
 
Chinese air force J-10
 
Under intake, J-10 could use 607 institution's lantian pod, which includes TFR, FLIR, NPCC, ECU and NPPW systems on it. China is ahead of any Asian country in this area.



This is radar imaging effect made under synthetical aperture radar mode. 
 
Pakistani air force high rank officer came to China and watched FC-1 04 test flight. The 150 export order has been made. China will deliver the first 8 planes to Pakistan before this August.







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  Quote Qin Dynasty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2006 at 13:05

Thanks  for the pics BIgtoothbrush,

the FC-1 does have made some progress, it might be competent in the world weapon market esp its price is much lower than the competitors'.

But back to the topic, to build a jet fighter requires a comprehensive technology in many aspects, so it is no wonder why only few countries could do it with their own strength. As a country with vast land , mass population and recent booming economy, it is not too difficult for China to build such an industry when its government takes it seriously.
 
The challenge thwarting before China aero industry is how to promote its product into a higher level. Compared with other nations, esp. Russia and USA, the current Chinese indigenous FC1 and F10 could only counterweight Su27 and F16.  The F10 may have some steathy techniques, but still inferior to the F15 of US and way behind F 35.
 
To be listed among the toppest, the Chinese aero industry is still a long way to go. I hope the ongoing F13 could make a breakthrough in the near future.
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  Quote bigtoothbrush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2006 at 18:29

Chinese aero industry is just the No.1 in Asia, not in world. Actually US is at least 15 years ahead of any country(including Russia) in this area. Who let you to compare China with America? J-10 of course is superior than earlier versions' F-16 and even F-16. But since the latest F-15 and F-16 changed much more powerful turbofans and new avionics(including AESA and double complex data lines), they are even superior than Typhoon and Rafale. The current J-10A/B that in Chinese air force could match the latest flanker for sure. It's definitely the most capable fighter ever that made by Asians.

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2006 at 18:43
Superiority of an aircraft over another is a very complicated issue.Every aero industry has it's secrets.Russia may be behind of USA in terms of electronics,but it has presented very good fighters which ,if were in production, they could compete modern American fighters.It's just that it has not the nessecery capital to reach the pre-Soviet developing rates.On the other hand ,the Typhoon was mainly designed as an interceptive and air superiority fighter,not as a multi-role fighter like the modern variations of F-15 and F-16.An aircraft is superior in certain fields ,where others are weak.For example,F-16 has a strong engine and great manuverability,but Rafale and Typhoon have even more,due to the Delta wings.Moreover,there are also other factors e.g the type of missiles which an aircraft can carry.Indian Mirages use Russian AAs .
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  Quote bigtoothbrush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2006 at 19:47
Originally posted by Spartakus

Superiority of an aircraft over another is a very complicated issue.
 
that's ture if talking about the actual capabilities of fighters. but what i was talking about is to compare the technologies that used by them, F-16 block60 is definitely superior than current version's Typhoon and Rafale. The block60 uses t/w ratio 9.8 turbofan, while Typhoon's is 9.0, Rafle's is 8.5 and J-10's is 8.2; blk60 carries Actively Electrical Scaning Radar, Typhoon, Rafle and J-10 only have Pulse Doppler Radar; blk60's buses use systemic distributing, it's completely different from Typhoon, Rafale and J-10's point to point distributing. these three planes' FC dualistic buses is just as comparable as block40 and F-16 MLU's, which maximal transmission speed is about 130Mbps. while according to experiences of blk60's test, it needs at least 525Mbps for FLIR informations live transmission, 290~800Mbps for establishing 3D map in MFD within 5 seconds. blk60's buses could make sure to transfer targets informations from IR sensors to weapons within several seconds. while Typhoon, Rafale and J-10's FC standard buses may need more than one minute to complete this process. it's too slow to do this in battlefield. thus people must input targets informations into weapons before planes take off. in such case blk60 will have much more flexible mission arrangement than those three planes. and blk60 could use lots of smart ammos that those three planes can't use. this just about technologies.
 
of course it will be a different story when talking about real capabilities. specially AAW, Typhoon, Rafale and J-10 all are superior than blk60 in this area due to their superior agility and bigger radar antennas(AESA's advantage to PD radar is multi targets dealing and anti disturbing from ground reflected random radar waves. it doesn't help in AAW)   
 
Originally posted by Spartakus

Russia may be behind of USA in terms of electronics,but it has presented very good fighters which ,if were in production, they could compete modern American fighters.It's just that it has not the nessecery capital to reach the pre-Soviet developing rates.
 
russian aero industry is very strong and is the No.2 in world. but american one is stronger in almost every area. no need to mention avionics(america is far ahead of everyone in this area). about aeroengine, american 's upper t/w ratio 10 class turbofan already be in service(t/w ratio 10.9 F-119 turbofan carried by F-22 and t/w ratio 10.1 F-135 turbofan carried by F-35), while russian even can't sure whether their AL-41(t/w ratio 10.4) could be available before 2015. as for aerodynamics(geometrical stealth and DSI intakes), america is ahead of everyone in this area as well.    


Edited by bigtoothbrush - 17-May-2006 at 20:06
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  Quote Russian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 05:45


If American industry is SOOO good, tell me, my friend, what is the american fighter that can even MATCH SU-30 MK or SU-37 "Terminator" one on one in a dogfight? There is NONE, have you seen what this baby does in the air?

when american pilot was asked on an air show after the performance of Su-37, what he will do in a dogfight with this aircraft one on one, he said: "I will eject."

After that, don't tell me that american is stronger, americans have got numbers.

Let's talk about rockets maybe? it is a pitty that US fighters use long range engagements most of the time to destroy enemy, and it is also a pitty that russian AA rockets have got WAY more range than US.

In close range: AA-11 ARCHER R-73, heard of it?

About the engine: How come that it is Russia that has fastest fighter in the world and not US, although US are supposed to be better? Mig-31, heard of it?

And guess what: F-35 uses russian engine.

Su-37 or Su-30 can carry 12 anti aair missiles, while raptor - 8.

Mig 31 uses the msot powerful radar of any fighter nowadays: Zaslon M.

here are some videos:

http://www.flightlevel350.com/aviation_videos.php?airplane=Sukhoi+Su-30

P.S. you can find on this site more videos of fighters, including SU-37, which is also terribly maneuverable.


LOL, you claim about aerodnamics made me laugh really,

If American plane will try to do Su-30 maneuverse, it will fall apart IN THE AIR. Eurofighter tried to do Su-30 maneuvres, crashed before it could do half of it, I will try to find a pic.
    

Edited by Russian - 18-May-2006 at 06:07
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 08:24
that's ture if talking about the actual capabilities of fighters. but what i was talking about is to compare the technologies that used by them, F-16 block60 is definitely superior than current version's Typhoon and Rafale. The block60 uses t/w ratio 9.8 turbofan, while Typhoon's is 9.0, Rafle's is 8.5 and J-10's is 8.2; blk60 carries Actively Electrical Scaning Radar, Typhoon, Rafle and J-10 only have Pulse Doppler Radar; blk60's buses use systemic distributing, it's completely different from Typhoon, Rafale and J-10's point to point distributing. these three planes' FC dualistic buses is just as comparable as block40 and F-16 MLU's, which maximal transmission speed is about 130Mbps. while according to experiences of blk60's test, it needs at least 525Mbps for FLIR informations live transmission, 290~800Mbps for establishing 3D map in MFD within 5 seconds. blk60's buses could make sure to transfer targets informations from IR sensors to weapons within several seconds. while Typhoon, Rafale and J-10's FC standard buses may need more than one minute to complete this process. it's too slow to do this in battlefield. thus people must input targets informations into weapons before planes take off. in such case blk60 will have much more flexible mission arrangement than those three planes. and blk60 could use lots of smart ammos that those three planes can't use. this just about technologies.
 
of course it will be a different story when talking about real capabilities. specially AAW, Typhoon, Rafale and J-10 all are superior than blk60 in this area due to their superior agility and bigger radar antennas(AESA's advantage to PD radar is multi targets dealing and anti disturbing from ground reflected random radar waves. it doesn't help in AAW)   
 
Technologies can easily change through modernizations.E.G Hellenic F-4 Phantoms,a 28 year old fighter, after their recent modernization can use AMRAAM missiles in BVR scrambles and their upgraded radar can now target multiple targets in air to air operations,sth unimaginable some years ago.The real problem is ,whether the aircraft can actually be a platform for new technologies.
 
russian aero industry is very strong and is the No.2 in world. but american one is stronger in almost every area. no need to mention avionics(america is far ahead of everyone in this area). about aeroengine, american 's upper t/w ratio 10 class turbofan already be in service(t/w ratio 10.9 F-119 turbofan carried by F-22 and t/w ratio 10.1 F-135 turbofan carried by F-35), while russian even can't sure whether their AL-41(t/w ratio 10.4) could be available before 2015. as for aerodynamics(geometrical stealth and DSI intakes), america is ahead of everyone in this area as well.    
 
Remember the Zaslon-M radar which can target enemy aircrafts in a distance of 250 Km.Concerning Russian engines and avionics,i think the Su-47 is your answer.The West has not presented sth like that,not even as a prototype,nor yet strategic interceptors like the MiG-31 with their immense air to air capabilities and speed.Where Russian Avionics is behind,is mainly in Stealth technology.
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  Quote bigtoothbrush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 12:14
If American industry is SOOO good, tell me, my friend, what is the american fighter that can even MATCH SU-30 MK or SU-37 "Terminator" one on one in a dogfight? There is NONE, have you seen what this baby does in the air?
=russian my bro, i know that russian aero industry is very advanced, too. but it's still not enough to compare with american one right now.
there is only one american fighter(F-22) that can match latest Flankers in dogfight. but there will be less and less dogfight but more and more BVR ones in modern AA warfare. and i doubt americans would use their extremely expensive fightrs to fight under such way. they will most likely use F-22's supersonic cruise capability to fight guerrilla and BVR warfare. the F-22 could get in and get out battlefield under supersonic speed. no one can catch them. the only chance you can shoot down them is to launch BVR missiles to intercept them in the front. but the front RCS of F-22 is less than 0.15 sq.m, thus there is no any fighter radar could lock F-22 from the front within 20km(this is APG77's maximal locking range to F-22). no doubt any current fighter is outclassed by F-22 in AAW.
 
Let's talk about rockets maybe? it is a pitty that US fighters use long range engagements most of the time to destroy enemy, and it is also a pitty that russian AA rockets have got WAY more range than US.
=as for AA missiles. american BVR missiles' range are already bigger than their fighter radars' maximal locking range. any longer range for AAM is unnecessary since it can't be supported by radars. without radar guidance, even if you have 10000km range AAM, it's still useless coz it will never hit targe. the most important factors for BVR missiles are its seeker's range and the anti-jam abilitiy, but not the missile's range. the latest version AIM-120D is the only BVR missile in the world that equipt with high frequency bidirectional datalink, thus it could instantly exchange massive datas with other sensor platforms. this makes it a extremely exact missile and it's very difficult to be jamed.
 
In close range: AA-11 ARCHER R-73, heard of it?
=america is leading within close combat missiles area as well. the R-73 is very excellent, but it's no match of new version AIM-9X. unlike the other missiles' fixed seeker, AIM-9X has a gimbal IR imaging seeker. thus it's angle of view area is way bigger than that of any other counterparts. AIM-9X is the only AAM that use vector nozzle, so it has the best agility among this area.
 
About the engine: How come that it is Russia that has fastest fighter in the world and not US, although US are supposed to be better? Mig-31, heard of it?
=just like other fighters, MIG-31 needs its afterburner to be turned on for supersonic flight. this will exhaust all of its fuel within several minutes. while F-22 could get supersonic speed by just using dry thrust of engine. actually F-22 is the only current fighter in the world that could do supersonic cruise(supersonic flight without afterburner working), that' why it's the only 4th generation fighter in the world.
 
And guess what: F-35 uses russian engine.
=the F-35 doesn't use russian engine, but american GE company's F-135 turbofan. this engine has a similar structure as russian Yak-141's engine, but it's way stronger than the russian one coz it came out much later. its t/w ratio is 10.1, while russian engine's is about 7.5; and american engine consumes much little fuel than russian one, that' why F-35 has way bigger range than Yak-141.
 
Su-37 or Su-30 can carry 12 anti aair missiles, while raptor - 8.
=not really. F-22 could carry 6 AAMs(4 AIM-120 and 2 AIM-9) when just use weapon cabins to keep stealth. if use hard points under wings as well, F-22 could carry 14 (6 from weapon cabins and 8 from hard points) AAMs at most. however this will effect plane's stealth and range.
 
Mig 31 uses the msot powerful radar of any fighter nowadays: Zaslon M.
=i bet that any fighter's radar can match F-22's APG-77 AESA. actually radar, engine and stealth feature are the 3 big factors that make F-22 to be considered as the only 4th generation fighter in the world.
 
If American plane will try to do Su-30 maneuverse, it will fall apart IN THE AIR. Eurofighter tried to do Su-30 maneuvres, crashed before it could do half of it, I will try to find a pic.
=no doubt Flankers' maneuverability are very excellent. they can do lots of actions that the other fighters can't do. however this ability doesn't help too much in battlefield, specially in BVR warefare, which becomes more and more common nowadays.


 


Edited by bigtoothbrush - 18-May-2006 at 12:45
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  Quote bigtoothbrush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 12:32
Technologies can easily change through modernizations.E.G Hellenic F-4 Phantoms,a 28 year old fighter, after their recent modernization can use AMRAAM missiles in BVR scrambles and their upgraded radar can now target multiple targets in air to air operations,sth unimaginable some years ago.The real problem is ,whether the aircraft can actually be a platform for new technologies.
=what you are talking about is my point as well. after upgraded by new avionics, even american old planes are superior than others' latest planes. this just show those yankees are really ahead of everyone in aero industry. their latest fighters will just be ahead of even more. of course the world has been always changing. who knows how many years could america keep this advantage.
 
Remember the Zaslon-M radar which can target enemy aircrafts in a distance of 250 Km.Concerning Russian engines and avionics,i think the Su-47 is your answer.The West has not presented sth like that,not even as a prototype,nor yet strategic interceptors like the MiG-31 with their immense air to air capabilities and speed.Where Russian Avionics is behind,is mainly in Stealth technology
=the 250km is for what kind of aircraft? if it's big size plane like transporter with large RCS, most of fighter radars can do this. in late 80s, america already tested prototype that has similar aerodynamics as Su-47's. this aerodynamics was not successful so they rejected it, russians did the same thing. you can see Su-47 won't get into russian air force for sure.
   
   
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 14:30
=what you are talking about is my point as well. after upgraded by new avionics, even american old planes are superior than others' latest planes. this just show those yankees are really ahead of everyone in aero industry. their latest fighters will just be ahead of even more. of course the world has been always changing. who knows how many years could america keep this advantage.
 
 
Thats not nessecary.An aircraft can be upgraded with many technologies from many countries around the world .Not to mention that,there is also the Air Defence Umbrella in which an aircraft is going to operate,combined with other Forces.There is no overall superiority in Military Aircrafts.F-22 may be superior in certain fields,but the Typhoon has also many advantages.
 
the 250km is for what kind of aircraft? if it's big size plane like transporter with large RCS, most of fighter radars can do this. in late 80s, america already tested prototype that has similar aerodynamics as Su-47's. this aerodynamics was not successful so they rejected it, russians did the same thing. you can see Su-47 won't get into russian air force for sure.
 
The Zaslon Radar series was built especially for MiG-31s Strategic Interceptors.The difference in X-29 and Su-47,is that the X-29 was not a military prototype which could enter production .It failed.On the other hand the reason why Su-47 did not manage to enter production was ,of course,the capital.The Su-47 had immense capabilities,especially in dog-fights.If it was going in production,it could actually be one of the best world-wide.
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  Quote bigtoothbrush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 15:05
There is no overall superiority in Military Aircrafts.F-22 may be superior in certain fields,but the Typhoon has also many advantages.
=but it seems the F-22 is really superior than Typhoon in every area of the capabilities. the only advantage Typhoon has is probably lower price. 
 
The Zaslon Radar series was built especially for MiG-31s Strategic Interceptors.The difference in X-29 and Su-47,is that the X-29 was not a military prototype which could enter production .It failed.On the other hand the reason why Su-47 did not manage to enter production was ,of course,the capital.The Su-47 had immense capabilities,especially in dog-fights.If it was going in production,it could actually be one of the best world-wide.
=it's a powerful 1000mm PD radar, but still nothing close to APG77, which is a 980mm AESA.
 
as for the Su-47, it even don't have suitable engine, how is possible its production to be started. its prototype uses AL-31 turbofan in test flight. this engine's t/w ratio is just around 8.0, nothing close to the GE F-119 carried by F-22. Russian won't start production of Su-47 forever. they will develop newer and better one to counter F-22. the new plane won't get its first flight befor 2015(waiting for engine). before this time, russian will go on improving Flanker series.   
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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 15:37
Engines can be created.Technologies can be developed or stealed or copied.The only thing needed is money.Russian experience in engines is well known.Again,we are talking about a country which in the last decade had no funds to preserve properly it's armed forces.Only the last years,Russia has shown an economical independence and improval.But even in that terrible economic situation,Russia managed to create the Su-47 and  military equipment of very high quality,which can by far compete Western weapon Systems.e.g Kornet-E,S-300PMU-1,S-400,Buk-M1,M-90,2S19 ect.Imagine if Russia had fully economically recovered,what it could produce.And i would not trust F-22 so much.Let it enter in service,let it fight a little .Weapon myths can be built very easily.
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  Quote Russian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 01:00


Ok, Aim-9X is no match for R-73, here read something by AMERICAN scientists:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/aa-11.htm

it is BEST missile there is, LOL, and I don't know how can you not know that R-73 also uses nozzles, it is the most maneuverable AA missile there is.


Russian missiles are way farther than american missiles, I am talking long range engagements.

You are saying there are not gonna be any dogfights, well, I think you are wrong, long range missiles are not really maneuverable, so, fighters like Su-37 will dodge them, and then you have to go dogfight.


"russians did the same thing. you can see Su-47 won't get into russian air force for sure."

but you can see that on it's basis, a fifth generation fighrter is coming, PAK-FA.

F-22, I don't think it will really be a match for SU-30 or Su-37, not nearly as maneuverable.

Stealth can be detected using long wave length radars, that's how in yugoslavia, anti air defence hit F-117 with very old soviet AA missiles.

Lol, about F-35 engine, did you know that Lockheed was in CLOSE cooperation with YAk company, doesn't it seem suspicious? Yak also had project for aircraft that looks terribly like F-35, YES, F-35 uses russian technilogy engine.

F-22 is stealth, but I heard that Mig-31's radar can track stealth aircraft, plus, I meant maximum speed, Mig-31 is the fastes aircraft nowadays.


And once again, I think you are wrong about BVR warfare, dogfights are important, fighters like Su-30 can dodge missiles for a long time, they will get close to you and that's it.

It is a common misconception that dogfights are not relevant anymore, they pretty much are.

Russian industry is advanced, and it can not be compared to US only because US has numbers and money to produce them, while on quality level, they are similar.

    

Edited by Russian - 19-May-2006 at 01:02
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