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The Impossibility of God?

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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Impossibility of God?
    Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 06:43
Cezar, for consistency of the belief in God you may want to read Plantinga's theistic theories. And also this very interesting debate on iidb.org:
 
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  Quote LilLou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 07:29
im not trying to convince anyone, or much proof of a religion, im just saying that it's obvious that there is a higher intelligence then us humans.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 07:31
Originally posted by LilLou

im not trying to convince anyone, or much proof of a religion, im just saying that it's obvious that there is a higher intelligence then us humans.

For a Christian it is. But your arguments only make sense if you already are Christian.
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  Quote LilLou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 08:09

Its harder to point my argument through religion so i will try my best through a scientific point of view...................

U see most things are contingent(they depend on something else for their existence) and thats absolutely one necessary thing, from the fact that we recognize various degrees of perfection from one being whom we have our ideas of perfection. by contrast, for the believer in god the ultimate reality is consious, creative and life. Look around the world and everything you find is nothing to be nothing but but one great machine, subdivided into infinite number of lesser machines to a degree where human understanding cannot explain, a painter always leaves a mark on his artwork, this higher intelligence left a mark in the cosmos.
don't take this as christian point of view.
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  Quote Greek Hoplite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 09:02
Originally posted by Epikoureios

If Jesus was recenrly killed in the electric chair, would all Christians wear little golden electric chairs around their necks?
 
With this you said you have insulted millions of people( if you already have not recognized it).
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  Quote Epikoureios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 17:37
As a Hellene I was insulted too when I found out the following:
 
(Summarized from Vlasis Rassias book "Demolish Them..")

(Published in Greek, Athens 1994, Diipetes Editions, ISBN 960-85311-3-6)

(All dates "era vulgaris" = Christian Era)

314: Immediately after its full legalization, the Christian Church attacks the Gentiles: The Council of Ancyra denounces the worship of Goddess Artemis.

324: Emperor Constantine declares Christianism as the only official Religion of the Roman Empire. In Dydima, Minor Asia, he sacks the Oracle of the God Apollo and tortures the pagan priests to death. He also evicts all the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all the local Hellenic Temples.

326: Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of the God Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and many Temples of the Goddess Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek, etc.

330: Emperor Constantine steals the treasures and statues of the pagan Temples of Greece to decorate Nova Roma (Constantinople), the new capital of his Empire.

335: Emperor Constantine sacks many pagan Temples of Minor Asia and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers". Martyrdom of the neoplatonist philosopher Sopatrus.

341: Emperor Flavius Julius Constantius persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentile Hellenes are either imprisoned or executed.

346: New large-scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius accused as. "magician".

353: An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for all kind of worship through sacrifices and "idols".

354: A new edict orders the closing of all the pagan Temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of pagan priests.

354: A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the pagan Temples and the execution of all "idolaters". First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are being organized next to the closed pagan Temples. A major part of the holy architecture of the Gentiles turns to lime.

357: Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination (Astrology not excluded).

359: In Skythopolis, Syria, the Christians organize the first death camps for the torture and executions of the arrested Gentiles from all around the Empire.

361 to 363: Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.

363: Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June).

364: Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch.

364: An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all Gentiles that worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination ("sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi curiositas"). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of the pagan Temples and the death penalty for participation in pagan rituals, even private ones.

365: An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids the Gentile officers of the army to command Christian soldiers.

370: Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of the Gentiles in all the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many other Gentiles, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of the cities of the Eastern Empire. All the friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.), the philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.

372: Emperor Valens orders the governor of Minor Asia to exterminate all the Hellenes and all documents of their wisdom.

373: New prohibition of all Divination methods. The term "pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the Christians to lessen the Gentiles.

375: The Temple of God Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down by the Christians.

380: On the 27th of February, Christianism becomes the exclusive Religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". The non-Christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe to the Christian God and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the pagan Temples of his area. The Christian priests lead the hungry mob against the Temple of Goddess Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 years old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of mental darkness over the human race.

381: On 2nd May, Theodosius deprives of all their rights the Christians that return back to the pagan Religion. In all the Eastern Empire the pagan Temples and Libraries are looted or burned down. On 21st December, Theodosius outlaws even the simple visits to the Temples of the Hellenes. In Constantinople, the Temple of Goddess Aphrodite is turned to brothel and the Temples of Sun and Artemis to stables.

382: "Hellelu-jah" (Glory to Yahweh) is imposed in the Christian mass.

384: Emperor Theodosius orders the Praetorian Prefect Maternus Cynegius, a dedicated Christian, to cooperate with the local bishops and destroy the Temples of the Gentiles in Northern Greece and Minor Asia.

385 to 388: Maternus Cynegius, encouraged by his fanatic wife, and bishop ("Saint") Marcellus with his gangs scour the countryside and sack and destroy hundreds of Hellenic Temples, shrines and altars. Among others they destroy the Temple of Edessa, the Cabeireion of Imbros, the Temple of Zeus in Apamea, the Temple of Apollo in Dydima and all the Temples of Palmyra. Thousands of innocent Gentiles from all sides of the Empire suffer martyrdom in the notorious death camps of Skythopolis.

386: Emperor Theodosius outlaws (16th June) the care of the sacked pagan Temples.

388: Public talks on religious subjects are also outlawed by Theodosius. The old orator Libanius sends his famous Epistle "Pro Templis" to Theodosius with the hope that the few remaining Hellenic Temples will be respected and spared.

389 to 390: All non-Christian date-methods are outlawed. Hordes of fanatic hermits from the desert flood the cities of the Middle East and Egypt and destroy statues, altars, Libraries and pagan Temples and lynch the Gentiles. Theophilus, Patriarch of Alexandria, starts heavy persecutions against the Gentiles, turns the Temple of Dionysos into a Christian church, burns down the Mithraeum of the city, destroys the Temple of Zeus and burlesque the pagan priests before they are killed by stoning. The Christian mob profanes the cult images.

391: On 24th February, a new edict of Theodosius prohibits not only visits to pagan Temples but also looking at the vandalized statues. New heavy persecutions all around the Empire. In Alexandria, Egypt, the Gentiles, led by the philosopher Olympius, revolt and after some street fights they lock themselves inside the fortified Temple of God Serapis (The Serapeion). After a violent siege, the Christians take over the building, demolish it, burn its famous Library and profane the cult images.

392: On 8th November, the Emperor Theodosius outlaws all the non-Christian rituals and names them "superstitions of the Gentiles" (gentilicia superstitio). New full scale persecutions against the Gentiles. The Mysteries of Samothrace are ended and the priests slaughtered. In Cyprus the local bishop ("Saint") Epiphanius and "Saint" Tychon destroy almost all the Temples of the island and exterminate thousands of Gentiles. The local Mysteries of Goddess Aphrodite are ended. Theodosius edict declares: "the ones that wont obey pater Epiphanius have no right to keep living in that island". The Gentiles revolt against the Emperor and the Church in Petra, Aeropolis, Rafia, Gaza, Baalbek and other cities of the Middle East.

393: The Pythian Games, the Aktia Games and the Olympic Games are outlawed as part of the Hellenic "idolatry". The Christians sack the Temples of Olympia.

395: Two new edicts (22nd July and 7th August) cause new persecutions against the Gentiles. Rufinus, the eunuch Prime Minister of Emperor Flavius Arcadius directs the hordes of the baptized Goths (led by Alarich) to the country of the Hellenes. Encouraged by Christian monks the barbarians sack and burn many cities (Dion, Delphi, Megara, Corinth, Pheneos, Argos, Nemea, Lycosoura, Sparta, Messene, Phigaleia, Olympia, etc.), slaughter or enslave innumerable Gentile Hellenes and burn down all the Temples. Among others, they burn down the Eleusinian Sanctuary and burn alive all its priests (including the hierophant of Mithras Hilarius).

396: On 7th December, a new edict by Emperor Arcadius orders that paganism be treated as high treason. Imprisonment of the few remaining pagan priests and hierophants.

397: "Demolish them!". Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still standing pagan Temples to be demolished.

398: The Fourth Church Council of Carthage prohibits to everybody, including to the Christian bishops, the study of the books of the Gentiles. Porphyrius, bishop of Gaza, demolishes almost all the pagan Temples of his city (except 9 of them that remain active).

399: With a new edict (13th of July) Emperor Flavius Arcadius orders all the still standing pagan Temples, mainly in the countryside, to be immediately demolished.

400: Bishop Nicetas destroys the Oracle of the God Dionysus in Vesai and baptizes all the Gentiles of this area.

401: The Christian mob of Carthage lynches Gentiles and destroys Temples and "idols". In Gaza too, the local bishop (also a."Saint") Porphyrius sends his followers to lynch Gentiles and to demolish the remaining 9 still active Temples of the city. The 15th Council of Chalkedon orders all the Christians that still keep good relations with their gentile relatives to be excommunicated (even after their death).

405: John Chrysostom sends hordes of gray dressed monks armed with clubs and iron bars to destroy the "idols" in all the cities of Palestine.

406: John Chrysostom collects funds from rich Christian women to financially support the demolition of the Hellenic Temples. In Ephessus he orders the destruction of the famous Temple of Goddess Artemis. In Salamis, Cyprus, the "Saints" Epiphanius and Eutychius continue the persecutions of the Gentiles and the total destruction of their Temples and sanctuaries.

407: A new edict outlaws once more all the non-Christian acts of worship.

408: The Emperor of the Western Empire Honorius and the Emperor of the Eastern Empire Arcadius order together all the sculptures of the pagan Temples to be either destroyed or to be taken away. Private ownership of pagan sculpture is also outlawed. The local bishops lead new heavy persecutions against the Gentiles and new book burning. The judges that have pity for the Gentiles are also persecuted. "Saint" Augustine massacres hundreds of protesting pagans in Calama, Algeria.

409: Once again, an edict orders Astrology and all methods of Divination to be punished by death.

415: In Alexandria, Egypt, the Christian mob, urged by the bishop Cyrillus, attacks a few days before the Judaeo-Christian Pascha (Easter) and cuts to pieces the famous and beautiful philosopher Hypatia. The pieces of her body, carried around by the Christian mob through the streets of Alexandria, are finally burned together with her books in a place called Cynaron. On 30th August, new persecutions start against all the pagan priests of North Africa who end their lives either crucified or burned alive.

416: The inquisitor Hypatius, alias "The Sword of God", exterminates the last Gentiles of Bithynia. In Constantinople (7th December) all non-Christian army officers, public employees and judges are dismissed.

423: Emperor Theodosius B declares (8th June) that the Religion of the Gentiles is nothing more than "demon worship" and orders all those who persist in practicing it to be punished by imprisonment and torture.

429: The Temple of Goddess Athena (Parthenon) on the Acropolis of Athens is sacked. The Athenian pagans are persecuted.

435: On 14th November, a new edict by Emperor Theodosius B orders the death penalty for all "heretics" and Gentiles of the Empire. Only Judaism is considered a legal non-Christian Religion.

438: Emperor Theodosius B issues an new edict (31st January) against the Gentiles, incriminating their "idolatry" as the reason of a recent plague (!)

440 to 450: The Christians demolish all the monuments, altars and Temples of Athens, Olympia, and other Greek cities.

448: Theodosius B orders all the non-Christian books to be burned.

450: All the Temples of Aphrodisias (City of Goddess Aphrodite) are demolished and all its Libraries burned down. The city is renamed Stavroupolis (City of the Cross).

451: New edict by Emperor Theodosius B (4th November) emphasizes that "idolatry" is punished by death.

457 to 491: Sporadic persecutions against the Gentiles of the Eastern Empire. Among others, the physician Jacobus and the philosopher Gessius are executed. Severianus, Herestios, Zosimus, Isidorus and others are tortured and imprisoned. The proselytizer Conon and his followers exterminate the last Gentiles of Imbros Island, Norheast Aegean Sea. The last worshippers of Lavranius Zeus are exterminated in Cyprus.

482 to 488: The majority of the Gentiles of Minor Asia are exterminated after a desperate revolt against the Emperor and the Church.

486: More "underground" pagan priests are discovered, arrested, burlesqued, tortured and executed in Alexandria, Egypt.

515: Baptism becomes obligatory even for those that already say they are Christians. The Emperor of Constantinople Anastasius orders the massacre of the Gentiles in the Arabian city Zoara and the demolition of the Temple of local God Theandrites.

528: Emperor Jutprada (Justinianus) outlaws the "alternative" Olympian Games of Antioch. He also orders the execution (by fire, crucifixion, tearing to pieces by wild beasts or cutting to pieces by iron nails) of all who practice "sorcery, divination, magic or idolatry" and prohibits all teachings by the Gentiles (".the ones suffering from the blasphemous insanity of the Hellenes").

529: Emperor Justinianus outlaws the Athenian Philosophical Academy and has its property confiscated.

532: The inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus, a fanatic monk, leads a crusade against the Gentiles of Minor Asia.

542: Emperor Justinianus allows the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus to convert the Gentiles of Phrygia, Caria and Lydia, Minor Asia. Within 35 years of this crusade, 99 churches and 12 monasteries are built on the sites of demolished pagan Temples.

546: Hundreds of Gentiles are put to death in Constantinople by the inquisitor Ioannis Asiacus.

556: Emperor Justinianus orders the notorious inquisitor Amantius to go to Antioch, to find, arrest, torture and exterminate the last Gentiles of the city and burn all the private libraries down.

562: Mass arrests, burlesquing, tortures, imprisonments and executions of Gentile Hellenes in Athens, Antioch, Palmyra and Constantinople.

578 to 582: The Christians torture and crucify Gentile Hellenes all around the Eastern Empire, and exterminate the last Gentiles of Heliopolis (Baalbek).

580: The Christian inquisitors attack a secret Temple of Zeus in Antioch. The priest commits suicide, but the rest Gentiles are arrested. All the prisoners, the Vice Governor Anatolius included, are tortured and sent to Constantinople to face trial. Sentenced to death they are thrown to the lions. The wild animals being unwilling to tear them to pieces, they end up crucified. Their dead bodies are dragged in the streets by the Christian mob and afterwards thrown unburied in the dump.

583: New persecutions against the Gentile Hellenes by the Emperor Mauricius.

590: In all the Eastern Empire the Christian accusers "discover" pagan conspiracies. New storm of torture and executions.

692: The "Penthekto" Council of Constantinople prohibits the remains of Calends, Brumalia, Anthesteria, and other pagan / Dionysian celebrations.

804: The Gentile Hellenes of Mesa Mani (Cape Tainaron, Lakonia, Greece) resist successfully the attempt of Tarasius, Patriarch of Constantinople, to convert them to Christianity.

850 to 860: Violent conversion of the last Gentile Hellenes of Laconia by the Armenian "Saint" Nikon.

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  Quote Epikoureios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 18:15
I have one quick question in order to clear a few things, so I know what are you talking about:
When you guys talk about god, which god do you mean?
The god that was invented by the American-Indians?
The god that was invented by the Greeks?
The god that was invented by the Sumerians?
The god that was invented by the Chinese?
Or the god that was invented and imposed by the Jews?
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  Quote Epikoureios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 18:55
I read Plantinga's theistic theories:
I found a lot of gibberish, but nowhere did I find any explanations or even excuses about the fact that the Abrahamic god of the desert, the first day, "created" light:
 
In Genesis:
1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
 
The third day he "created" plants and vegetation:
 
1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years
 
And the fourth day he "created" the light producing objects, like suns and stars:
 
1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
 
The first problem I see here is how did the biblical god managed to "create" light the first day, but "create" the light producing lights the fourth day?
The second problem I see is how did the desert god "created" vegetation the third day, without the existance of any light producing objects (suns, stars)? What I mean is: he never had heard of a thing called Photosynthesis?
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 20:33
Originally posted by Cezar

By means of logic, if God exists (mainly speaking of the abrahmanic God) then, to be complete It must also contain Its nonexistence. So God exists and also doesn't exist. Therefore either you have a God which is limited by it's own existence or you have a God that is unlimited therefore you either and simultaneously have and don't have a God. So if you chose to believe that God only exists you chose to limit the unlimited God. If you decide that God doesn't exist you limit yourself to an existence that isn't complete by denying the posibility of the existance of a God. It's the choice of completness or consistency. Believing in God is usually inconsistent. Atheists are generally consistent.

I'm not aware of God requiring to be a superset containing everything.
Originally posted by Epikoureios

I found a lot of gibberish, but nowhere did I find any explanations or even excuses about the fact that the Abrahamic god of the desert, the first day, "created" light:

What do you mean Abrahamic?
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  Quote Epikoureios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 20:37
The 2 heresies of Judaism, also known as apocalyptical religions (Christianity & Islam) are an invention of the same person, Abraham.
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  Quote Epikoureios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 20:40
To be more specific: the god of the 2 religions I'm mentioning above is the invention of Abraham.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 21:03
Islam has nothing to do with the bible is my point. Although on the surface Islam and Christianity look similar the underlying theology is quite different. To attack the bible and extend this critisim to Islam is completely incorrect.
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Sep-2006 at 23:52
Originally posted by Epikureious

I read Plantinga's theistic theories:
I found a lot of gibberish, but nowhere did I find any explanations or even excuses about the fact that the Abrahamic god of the desert, the first day, "created" light
Then obviously you haven't understood neither Plantinga, nor that debate.
 
(Summarized from Vlasis Rassias book "Demolish Them..")
 That's a mumbo-jumbo of accusations blaming together secular and laic authorities, losing any historical grasp upon centuries of Byzantine history. It looks like a type of Hellenic ideological extremism (there was a period when Hellene was synonymous with pagan). Anyway the part with inquisitors in 6th century was quite hilarious.
Anyway, what do you think of the persecution of thousands of followers of Dionysos's cult and other mystery cults in Rome, at the beginning of 2nd century BC? There was no Christianity then to lay a blame on ....
 
 
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  Quote Greek Hoplite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 03:04
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

Islam has nothing to do with the bible is my point. Although on the surface Islam and Christianity look similar the underlying theology is quite different.
 
I think that at least at the first centuries of islam's existance , according to christians islam was a heresy of christianity.
 
Epikoureios wrote:
"As a Hellene I was insulted too when I found out the following"
 
 
Yes its true that bad christians( fanatics) have done many crimes especially in ancient monuments and libraries. But they have maybe an excuse for all these if we consider the persecutions against christians during the first three centuries A.D.,do you know how amusing is to be eaten by a lion?
 


Edited by Greek Hoplite - 28-Sep-2006 at 03:15
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  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 06:43

Hi there Cezar.

You're showing people would face a contradiction. But that's because the theory itself (to be complete requires to contain a deficiency like noneexistance) is a contradiction:
 
Something, either:
 
1- exists
 
or
 
2- doesn't exist
 
If something exists, so it doesn't cotain 'noneexistance'. If we think it should, so our sentence is a paradox.
 
In fact, concepts like 'existance', 'shadow', 'good' or 'bad', etc. have got their meaning only when they're compared to their opposite:
 
Let's say God doesn't exist; but there should be another existance which is a mesuare, a scale for 'noneexistance' of God or whatever you call.


Edited by gok_toruk - 28-Sep-2006 at 06:44
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  Quote Epikoureios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 08:38
Chilbudios wrote:
That's a mumbo-jumbo of accusations blaming together secular and laic authorities, losing any historical grasp upon centuries of Byzantine history. It looks like a type of Hellenic ideological extremism (there was a period when Hellene was synonymous with pagan). Anyway the part with inquisitors in 6th century was quite hilarious.
You know, you are absoluteley right! All this stuff I quoted from Vlassis Rassias about the crimes against the Hellenes are nothing but "Hellenic ideological extemism" and "hillarious" asserions from my part, and they can not be taken seriously by people like you. What can it be taken seriously though (by people like you) are stories like virgins that give birth and remain virgins, dead people that get resurrected, donkeys that speak, people that walk on water and turn water into wine etc.
 
God (Yahweh) protect me from your followers!
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  Quote Giordano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 08:45
Finally what glasses use to look at world you'll see it.A christ or muslim when
science explore something immediatelly convert its religion and believe ever exploration proves god's existence and their religion is truth only.With an objectical glasses everything so different.With discussing about this subject
doesn't bring nobody to nowhere...
To believe  is to close your eyes,ears ,you believe or not,you've no third chance.
I respect all believers and wait for the same behaviours from them too...
War is delightful to those who have had no experience of it.
Desiderius Erasmus
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  Quote Epikoureios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 08:50
Greek Hoplite wrote:
Yes its true that bad christians( fanatics) have done many crimes especially in ancient monuments and libraries. But they have maybe an excuse for all these if we consider the persecutions against christians during the first three centuries A.D.,do you know how amusing is to be eaten by a lion?
It was the Romans, not the Hellenes, that persecuted the early Christians for defecting from the Roman Army and discontinue to fight for the Empire, due to the pacifist ideologies of one Paul Spermologos of Tarsus and his clever invention for putting an end to the Roman occupation, the desecration of his temples and the diminishment of the Sanhendrin and its Hierateion!
It was not the Hellenes that persecuted the early Christians and throw them to the lions, so where do you see the excuse for the Christian atrocities against the Hellenes and not the Romans?
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  Quote Chilbudios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 09:06
You know, you are absoluteley right! All this stuff I quoted from Vlassis Rassias about the crimes against the Hellenes are nothing but "Hellenic ideological extemism" and "hillarious" asserions from my part, and they can not be taken seriously by people like you. What can it be taken seriously though (by people like you) are stories like virgins that give birth and remain virgins, dead people that get resurrected, donkeys that speak, people that walk on water and turn water into wine etc.
 
God (Yahweh) protect me from your followers!
There are two fatal mistakes in your position.
 
One which you and Vlassis Rassias commit together - the erroneous image of the past. For instance, Vlassis Rassias wrongly states "Religious tolerance and restoration of the pagan cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the pagan Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.". Julian's policy was openly anti-Christian, therefore intolerant to the religion he fought against. But it would be against your agenda and would undermine a key argument of yours to concede the border tolerance/intolerance isn't by far coinciding with the border non-Christian/Christian. One of the strong arguments motivating the anti-Christianity would collapse like a pack of cards.
It would be a waste of time to pick each one of those one-liners and show the shaky grounds they stand on (dichotomies like Gentiles/Pagans vs Christians, Pagan vs Inquisitors, etc. all point to marks of late and certainly inaccurate persepectives), when not openly false. And we won't even reach the reliability of the sources and their interpretation in the context of their contemporary ideologies.
 
The second mistake is so far only yours, and is the known fallacy of the false dilemma. If I'm not openly anti-Christian then I must believe in a Christian god.
It is an illusion to think beliefs are proper only to Abrahamic religions or whatever "non-secular" environment. You're a good example that beliefs, doctrines and ignorance are dangerously flourishing in the anti-religion attitude.
 
It was not the Hellenes that persecuted the early Christians and throw them to the lions, so where do you see the excuse for the Christian atrocities against the Hellenes and not the Romans?
Leaving aside the naive frame of the question, you may consider that what you call "Hellenes" were at that time part of the Roman empire, Roman citizens, and therefore Romans.


Edited by Chilbudios - 28-Sep-2006 at 09:14
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  Quote Epikoureios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2006 at 09:36
Chiliburdas wrote:
You're a good example that beliefs, doctrines and ignorance are dangerously flourishing in the anti-religion attitude.
 
Those words can easily be used about the Christian introlerance against the Hellenic religion (Dodekatheon), but I guess that is ok for you, in your book, since that was the the desire, the command and the will of your desert "god"!
 
Chiliburdas also wrote:
Leaving aside the naive frame of the question, you may consider that what you call "Hellenes" were at that time part of the Roman empire, Roman citizens, and therefore Romans.
 
Hellenes were part of the Roman Empire, all right! As slaves! I see that you don't like reading that much, at least then go see a movie or two, like "Spartacus".


Edited by Epikoureios - 28-Sep-2006 at 18:36
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