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Caucasian asians?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Caucasian asians?
    Posted: 13-May-2006 at 07:08
Are Turks mongoloid or caucasoid
or a mix of both.

what's the deal because verry few people in Turkey look asian.( I think the most aren't) and what about the caucasus Turks.
But what defines a (pure)turk. aren't turks nomads they mix with people where ever they went.

So please help


Edited by ahiska
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 22:27

 

From refering to ancient Chinese chronicles and other archeological facts, I've got the conclution that Turks are Caucasian with Mongoloid feature.

BTW, defining a pure nation is just racism, and it's not possible.

 

Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2006 at 01:07

I've heard that it was the other way around

I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2006 at 08:25
Please note that terms such as Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid are extremely archaic and have no scientific value. I know that they are still used by a lot of lay people with no bad intentions; however, since we are all now participating in a forum the purpose of which is to improve our knowledge and widen our horizon, I think it's not a bad thing to know how outdated these terms are.
 
There is a lot of information on the "un-scientific-ness" of these terms. But I will just use Wikipedia's description. If you are really interested in this topic, get some more academic sources.
 
 

Imprecise usage as labels for human classification

The terms "Caucasoid," "Negroid," "Mongoloid," and similar ones with the "oid" suffix are also used in several fields as euphemisms for racialist terms that came to be seen as offensive about fifty years ago. Scientific support for the Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid terminology has fallen steadily over the past century. Where 78 percent of the articles in the 1931 Journal of Physical Anthropology employed these or similar synonymous terms reflecting a bio-race paradigm, only 36 percent did so in 1965, and just 28 percent did in 1996. In February, 2001, the editors of the medical journal Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine asked authors to no longer use "race" as explanatory variable nor to use obsolescent terms. Others prestigious peer-reviewed journals, such as the New England Journal of Medicine and the American Journal of Public Health have done the same. Furthermore, the National Institutes of Health recently issued a program announcement for grant applications through February 1, 2006, specifically seeking researchers who can investigate and publicize among primary care physicians the detrimental effects on the nation's health of the practice of medical racial profiling using such terms The program announcement quoted the editors of one journal as saying that, "analysis by race and ethnicity has become an analytical knee-jerk reflex."

Two criticisms are often leveled at the usage of these terms in scientific venues. The first objection to Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid and similar terms is that they perpetuate the simplistic and demonstrably false notion that H. sapiens can genetically be divided into a specific set of 3-8 distinct groups, clusters, clines, races, breeds, varieties, or subspecies, which can then be objectively delineated. Humanity can be grouped or classified in many different ways, of course, either genetically (as, for instance, by blood type, lactose tolerance, skin tone, or the neutral markers of prehistoric migrations) or politically (as in EEOC regulations or the exhortations of Pan-Black Afrocentrists, for example). And whether any such classification scheme matches any particular individual's notion of "race" depends entirely upon the individual. As R.S. Cooper puts it, "Each time the technical facade of these racialist arguments is destroyed, the latest jargon and half-truths from the margins of science are used to rebuild them around the same core belief in Black inferiority. Because race is in part a genetic concept, the advent of molecular DNA technology has opened an important new chapter in this story. Unfortunately, the article... begins from mistaken premises and merely restates the racialist view using the terminology of molecular genetics."

The second objection is more pertinent to this discussion. It is that since such terms lack a current consensus denotation in science, their use makes papers diffult if not impossible to understand. A sampling of such criticisms in scholarly peer-reviewed professional papers include:

  • "Race equality as a matter of governance has gained momentum in most Western countries and is reflected in race/ethnicity data collection in administrative systems and the attention accorded to terminology by census agencies. However, the vocabulary of health care--both in its literature and the language of officialdom--has proved resistant to the use of this lexicon of acceptable terms.... What makes such language racist is the historical legacy it carries--that is, its symbolic importance."
  • "We find that commonly used ethnic labels are both insufficient and inaccurate representations of the inferred genetic clusters.... We note, however, that the complexity of human demographic history means that there is no obvious natural clustering scheme, nor an obvious appropriate degree of resolution."
  • "Although quality research in this field is most welcome, concern is mounting over the confusing and often inappropriate labeling of populations under study."
  • "Given the widespread and often inconsistent use of this terminology in both text and tables, resulting in confusion or ambiguity about the populations being described, it is important that this issue is addressed."
  • "Medical definitions of race have lagged behind [in the elimination of the imprecise and innaccurate terms Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid]...."

Some critics go on to affirm that usage of these terms (Caucasoid, Negroid, Mongoloid) has declined in recent years. According to a current undergraduate physical anthropology text, "...Europeans, Africans, and Asians (often referred to by the archaic terms 'Caucasoid,' 'Negroid', and Mongoloid,' which are almost never used in scientific research today)." According to M.A. Winkler "thankfully the former Medical Subject Headings (MeSH) terms such as Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australoid rarely appear in biomedical literature."

And yet, although many scholarly articles criticize usage of the terms, and apparently no one in scholarly venues defends their use, the terms continue to appear in the literature. Such usages generally fall into two groups: admixture mapping and "ethnic" medicine.

 


Edited by flyingzone - 28-May-2006 at 21:16
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2006 at 20:38

So what do scientists use these days to denote race?

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  Quote Iranduxt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2006 at 21:24

As far as I know turks and mongles are a nomadic tribes from mongolia or china who mixed with Iranic (aryan) tribes of steppes.

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2006 at 21:32
This is the thing - "race" is not a real scientific concept, so it has no intrinsic scientific value.
 
Obviously, this is something that is not well-recognized by lay people. Unfortunately, the perception of "race" as a genuine "scientific" concept has been reinforced by the research and academic communities which may themselves acknowledge the un-scientific-ness of the concept of race but still refuse to abandon its usage simply because (1) "race", as a empirical variable, is easy to "operationally-defined" (like "age" and "gender") and (2) it's easier to make generalizations based on such a simplistic variable. 
 
Other terms that can be used instead of race are: "continental origin", "anthropological designation" (e.g. Caucasian), or "colonial history" (e.g. Latino).
 


Edited by flyingzone - 28-May-2006 at 21:33
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2006 at 06:08
Originally posted by flyingzone

This is the thing - "race" is not a real scientific concept, so it has no intrinsic scientific value.
 
Obviously, this is something that is not well-recognized by lay people. Unfortunately, the perception of "race" as a genuine "scientific" concept has been reinforced by the research and academic communities which may themselves acknowledge the un-scientific-ness of the concept of race but still refuse to abandon its usage simply because (1) "race", as a empirical variable, is easy to "operationally-defined" (like "age" and "gender") and (2) it's easier to make generalizations based on such a simplistic variable. 
 
Other terms that can be used instead of race are: "continental origin", "anthropological designation" (e.g. Caucasian), or "colonial history" (e.g. Latino).
 
Thats where you are wrong. There are racial differences and they are signifcant. African have sickle cell deficienies while Europeans don't. The Caucasoids on the other hand are very suceptible to skin cancer and sun burn, but the Negroids are better protected. Multi race people such as in the United States, often are invulnerble to either.
 
While the attempts to reduce racialm hatred is very laudable, science is not the vehical to do it.
 
 
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  Quote Afsar Beghi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2006 at 18:00
I think turks are more mongoloid and gained caucasoid features (due to the different environment) when they came to central asia
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 10:10
Modern day Turks are the Turkified people of Asia Minor.
Thats why the look and are caucasian.
 
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  Quote Afsar Beghi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 10:35
why do people always think the turks in turkey are turkified locals, cause if you go to the villages in turkey you can clearly see the mongoloid (features) of people. 
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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 10:58
Turks are Turkic not mongoloid or caucasoid or aborogine!!!
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 11:10
is eurasian a right termto difine a turk?
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Afsar Beghi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 11:11
turkic has nothing to with the appearance of the turks , it more represents the language (and culture) spoken by turkic people, and is not used as an ethnic connection between turkic peoples
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 11:53
Originally posted by Afsar Beghi

I think turks are more mongoloid and gained caucasoid features (due to the different environment) when they came to central asia
 
Why can't we say that the Turks mainly got some Mongoloid feature when the Mongols came to the central asia?
 
 
 
 
Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 11:57
Originally posted by Afsar Beghi

why do people always think the turks in turkey are turkified locals, cause if you go to the villages in turkey you can clearly see the mongoloid (features) of people. 
 
Remember my friend, they might be different from other locals, but they are Turanid, and it isn't  Mongoloid race.
Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 12:03
Originally posted by Afsar Beghi

turkic has nothing to with the appearance of the turks , it more represents the language (and culture) spoken by turkic people, and is not used as an ethnic connection between turkic peoples
 
Sure, there is no question for present day Tukic people. When it comes to original people, some people have got twisted minds for their political aims. That's why we are trying to provide some proofs here.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Either make a history or become a history.
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 12:23
accualy it does some asiatic features can never be lost if you have any
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Afsar Beghi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 12:53
most turks that I know are brachycephalic and thats a typical mongoloid feature just like the high cheekbones
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  Quote JiNanRen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2006 at 17:01
Originally posted by Afsar Beghi

why do people always think the turks in turkey are turkified locals, cause if you go to the villages in turkey you can clearly see the mongoloid (features) of people. 
Because there are more locals then the migrating Turks.  Unless Turks kill off most of the locals, there logically would be more local genetic traits then the traits of the migrating nomads.
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