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Topic ClosedThe Secret History of the Mongols

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Secret History of the Mongols
    Posted: 19-May-2006 at 22:33
Turkic peoples and Mongolian (Khalkha, Buryats, Kalmucks) peoples have different and mutually incomprehesible languages. As we know from the Secret History, Genghis Khan's troops had huge cultural and linguistic problems when they were conquering Khori-Tumats - ancestors of modern Buryats, who are practically the same people as Khalkha-Mongols. And at the same time the Genghis Khan troops considered Kypchaks, Qanglys, Ongut Turks and other Turkic tribes as brethrens, who had the same language and culture. Naimans, Kereits, Qongurats, Jalairs etc. were Turkic tribes - now parts of Kazakhs - as well as Kypchaks, Qanglys, Onguts (Waqs or Uaks now).

In recent translation of the Secret History made by Urgunge Onon you can see hundreds and hundreds explanations of the words and names which can be possible only by using what he called "Orkhon Turkish" - i.e. practically Kazakh language. Is Urgunge Onon also "nationalist"?
Also, all geographical names in the Secret History are Turkic, and today on territory of modern Mongolia they all sound totally different.

http://www.zanabazar.mn/Guide/Burkhan/burkhan.html

...Another locale in the Khentii Mountains frequented by Zanabazar was 7724-foot Khentii Khan Uul, also known as the Burkhan Khaldun of the Khamug Mongols. The top of this mountain is where, according to legend, Chingis Khan went to pray for guidance before going into battle. (It should not be confused with the Burkhan Khaldun of the Uriankhai, where Chingis, in an famous episode in his early life, hid from the Merkit tribesmen who had kidnapped his wife Bцrte and tried to kill him, now identified by most historians as 7534-foot Erdene Uul, about twenty miles southwest of here.)... End of quote

TWO Burkhan-Khaldun mountains!!
And both have Khalkha-Mongolian names now - Khentii Khan Uul and Erdene Uul! How is this possible - not to know which of the mountains is the SACRED one of Genghis Khan, and to rename it?!  It is obvious that Khalkha-Mongols have no relation to Genghis Khan and his  so-called "Mongols" (i.e. Mangqols).



Edited by Akskl - 20-May-2006 at 23:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2006 at 02:28
to Akskl
- Please read Secret Histrory of Mongols first
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-May-2006 at 12:30

I don't believe in the 'Turkic People'. I mean I don't think they were the same ethnical and racial people; let alone to be nationalist; thanks for your description 'inikim'. We're just trying to support what we think... that is old Mongols are not the same people as present day Mongols. I'm not saying they were Turkic. Note the thing.

Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 09:21

The present day Mongols were more or less the same with the old Mongols, as they have continued their culture. Only the old Mongols had more Turkic influence, and some part were intergrated into Turkic stock. Even if there were Turkic people living with Mongol peoples during that period, they were always distinguished from each other. Don't include Turkic groups to old Mongol category to make yourself confused.

Either make a history or become a history.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2006 at 23:30
I have two English translations of the Secret History and a Russian one. And I am going to buy another English translation - Professor de Rachewiltz's one. Urgunge Onon's one has numerous references to the "Orhon Turkish" dialect (i.e. Turkic language) for explanatiions and translation of hundreds of names and words.


Edited by Akskl - 24-May-2006 at 23:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2006 at 00:11
This is an interesting topic.
 
Can we say modern Mongols & Turkic people like Kazakhs, Turkmens does not necessarily look like the people of Genghis Khan's time?
 
I mean, over hundreds of years, how much integration have the steppe people established to become what they are today?
 
For example, the Americans were decendents of many European people like Poles, Italians, Irish, etc. So today, when we look at them can we really identify the characteristics that separates the old European linages? Does the Americans look really different from their forefathers?
 
Also, I would like to draw your attention to this thread: http://dodona.proboards35.com/index.cgi?board=physanth&action=display&thread=1118992922
 
It classifies and shows examples of physical features of Mongoliod people; which includes Mongols and Turkic people.
 
cheers
 


Edited by raygun - 25-May-2006 at 00:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2006 at 01:30
I think more likely than not, the ethnic composition of Mongols has changed to some extent. 800 years is more than enough time, even in sedentary cultures and without any mass migrations.

Of course, culturally, the identity is always very persistent throughout history.

I have two English translations of the Secret History and a Russian one. And I am going to buy another English translation - Professor de Rachewiltz's one. Urgunge Onon's one has numerous references to the "Orhon Turkish" dialect (i.e. Turkic language) for explanatiions and translation of hundreds of names and words.


Ultimately, no analysis can uncover the original text because the only known versions of the secret history are all traslated from a chinese version.


Edited by Imperator Invictus - 25-May-2006 at 01:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2006 at 11:41

Hello!

Could anyone tell me when the brothers of Temujin/Genghis Khan died?
I have read that they control the eastern wing of the empire close to China and Corea.
But i have read that is favorite brother is Temge.
But i cannot find anyting about Jchi Khasar, Belgutei or Qaciun.
More related to the main general's when they died?
One question:
Jchi the first son is really son of Temujin or not?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-May-2006 at 12:45

Well, raygun, among the people believed to be descendants of old Mongols, there are 'Hazara' people of Afghanistan. They're just like we Central Asians. But there comes Mongol- descents of China and present day Mongols of Mongolia. They are Mongoloid... but the forms of eyes are different. You know, we've got distinctions in our own place (Central Asia); but not to the degree found in present day Mongols. Hazaras and Mongols of China and Mongolia are all Mongols? But why do they differ? Should we take into account the Manchu- Tungusic influence in eastern ones? Hazara people are believed to marry inside their society rather than with Afghan Uzbeks, Turkmens or Kazaks. So, the chance to intermix with Turkic tribes fails there. But the intersting thing is that they still look like we Central Asians.

Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-May-2006 at 12:47

Tank's to all about the information it is important because in the last two weeks almost become mad because i dont found information about that. Also in my rechearch i found to intersting names: Aric- Boge i think he is a rival of Kublai Khan. And found a men called Altan Khan. Could you please tell me more about these men's?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 18:58
http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/10636


The Project Gutenberg EBook of The Travels of Marco Polo Volume 1
by Marco Polo and Rustichello of Pisa

[10] ["The Keraits," says Mr. Rockhill (_Rubruck_, 111, note), "lived on
the Orkhon and the Tula, south-east of Lake Baikal; Abulfaraj relates
their conversion to Christianity in 1007 by the Nestorian Bishop of
Merv. Rashideddin, however, says their conversion took place in the
time of Chingis Khan. (_D'Ohsson_, I. 48; _Chabot, Mar Jabalaha, III._
14.) D'Avezac (536) identifies, with some plausibility, I think, the
Keraits with the _Ki-le_ (or _T'ieh-le_) of the early Chinese annals.
The name K'i-le was applied in the 3rd century A.D. to _all_ the
Turkish tribes, such as the _Hui-hu_ (Uigurs), _Kieh-Ku_ (Kirghiz)
Alans, etc., and they are said to be the same as the _Kao-ch'e_, from
whom descended the _Cangle_ of Rubruck. (_T'ang shu_, Bk. 217, i.;
_Ma Tuan-lin_, Bk. 344, 9, Bk. 347, 4.) As to the Merkits, or
Merkites, they were a nomadic people of Turkish stock
, with a possible
infusion of Mongol blood. They are called by Mohammedan writers
Uduyut, and were divided into four tribes. They lived on the Lower
Selinga and its feeders. (_D'Ohsson_, i. 54; _Howorth, History_, I.,
pt. i. 22, 698.)"--H. C.]      End of quote
 
Reading the Secret History it becomes absolutely obvious for any reader that Genghis Khan and his "Mongols" (correctly - Mongqols) spoke the same language as Kereits, Merkits, Naimans, Jalairs, Qongyrats, Onguts, and other TURKIC tribes. This automatically means that Genghis Kgan and his "Mongols" were TURKIC speakers as well.

All geographical names of the Secret History of the places located on territory of modern Mongolia are changed - they were Turkic in the manuscript, and now they all sound totally different. E.g. lake Qyzyl Bash - now Ulyung nor, Qara'un-jidun mountains of the Secret History -see page 196 of Urgunge Onon's translation- now are Shike (Yeke) Qahan mountains in Eastern Mongolia (Xing'an in Chinese), etc.
At the same time geographical names mentioned in the Secret History and located on the territory of Kazakhstan - stay the same - e.g. see page 187 - Ertis river in Kazakh (Erdish in the Secret History, Irtysh in Russian), Buqtyrma river in Kazakh (Buqdurma in the Secret History, Bukhtarma in Russian), Altay Mountains, etc.


Edited by Akskl - 31-May-2006 at 19:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 20:23
Reading the Secret History it becomes absolutely obvious for any reader that Genghis Khan and his "Mongols" (correctly - Mongqols) spoke the same language as Kereits,

Explain how its "absolutely obvious." Also, a person can speak multiple languages. Almost everyone on this forum is an english speaker, so does that mean he or she is American/British/etc...? Smile


Edited by Imperator Invictus - 31-May-2006 at 20:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 21:19
Don't worrey Akskl has a bee in his bonnet..........

He thinks that Mongolian didn't exsist and they all spoke Turkish, thus they all were Turkish.

It's mince, my only fear is that people might be teaching/propagating such rubbish.
rgds.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 23:58
Dear Tom, why don't you open links I provided, and books I cited?
Also, how can you explain the changes in geographical names on the territory of modern Mongolia? The only reasonable explanation is that modern Khalkha-Mongols have nothing in common with Cenghis Khan and his Mongqols, described in the Secret History.
The same situation is on the Western part of the Great Steppe. All Turkuc geographical names are almost forgotten there, and are replaced by totally different ones. E.g. Danube - Tuna, Dnestr - Turla, Dnepr - Aqsu, Don - Tan,  Volga - Edil,  Ural - Jaiyq,  Simferopol - Aq-Mechet, Odessa - Hajibey , etc.  New occupants - new geographical names.
Genghis Khan and his "Mongols" were not polyglots. They could speak only their own Turkic language - universal language between Danube river (and even Adriatic sea) and the Great Wall of China (and Laptev sea on the North). Nomads were very mobile, that is why there are practically no dialect differences within Kazakhs, and that's why most of Turkic peoples can easily understand each other without help of interpreters - thus they speak the same language (according to rules of linguistics)  - only having different dialects of the same language.


Edited by Akskl - 01-Jun-2006 at 00:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 03:05
Oh dear Aksakal
 
Seems like you are very eager to prove that Mongols spoke Turkic. I found some original text from Secret History of Mongols.
 
Please have a look, you might recognise some turkic words, maybe you can understand it... translate into turkish and english.
 
Remember:-  the surviving manuscripts all derive from a Chinese transliteration and translation of the 14th century, significantly after the death of Genghis Khan on his conquests and perceptions viewed by the Mongols
 
1)
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Edited by Zorigo - 01-Jun-2006 at 03:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 09:13
Also, how can you explain the changes in geographical names on the territory of modern Mongolia?

I think it proves nothing. Names changes all the time and just by reading what you wrote, I can tell that you're exaggerating the observations. I guess by using your logic, one can conclude that the Soviets and Modern Russians aren't the same people, since city names like Leningrad and Stalingrad have changed.
Wink

The only reasonable explanation is that modern Khalkha-Mongols have nothing in common with Cenghis Khan and his Mongqols, described in the Secret History.

While ethnic composition have changed, it has not totally changed. The Mongol Empire lasted until 1600, after which there were successor states that Mongol in character.

I think you're just trying to push propoganda that everything was Turkic. I can't wait to see how you prove that Manchus were also Turkic.




Edited by Imperator Invictus - 01-Jun-2006 at 09:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 10:31
Originally posted by Akskl

Dear Tom, why don't you open links I provided, and books I cited?


I've looked at the links and books, and on other fora I've pointed out how your souces don't support your theories.

j' accuse  you are trolling...........


Edited by tadamson - 01-Jun-2006 at 10:32
rgds.

      Tom..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 15:33
Page 241, ref. 577:
"The Ula and the Na'u are the Songari and Na'un (Onon) River..."

Even Onon (i.e. Na'u or Na'un, as we know now) river also was renamed by Khalkha-Mongols?!!

References to the so-called "Orkhon Turkish dialect" in the Urgunge Onon's "Secret History":

72. Tenggis - ocean
79. Soqor - blind
81. Tunggelik or Tonggelik river - means "to flow" or a "wheel" in Kazakh (dongheleg), and not related to "deresu" - "mat-thorn grass" as Urgunge Onon proposes.
82. Alan Qo'a - "Outstanding beauty" in Orkhon Turkish
83. Kol - lake
86.-lar, -nar plural ending inTurkic
125. Shinqor -kind of falcon (Sunqar in Kazakh), bilge -wise, beki - "another Orkhon Turkish title"
128. "Otchigin is a compound of the Orkhon Turkish word ot -"fire" ("ot" in Kazakh -A.)..." " Buri" means "wolf" in the Orkhon Turkish dialect..."
129. "Kishlig ...means "huge", "broad-minded", "boastful" in Orkhon Turkish... "Darqan" translated here as "freedman" is an Orkhon Turkish term ...
131. ...Kolen means large lake in Orkhon Turkish...
141. The text says "older brother" (aqa) (agha in Kazakh - A.)
148. ...the prefix dei-, derived from an Orkhon Turkish word meant "mother's younger brother"...
149. Quda ... page 57: Dei-sechen said: "Yisugei-quda..." (quda means relatives trough marriage in Kazakh, and not derived from "qudaldaqu - to sell", as Urgunge Onon proposes - A.)
156. Monglik meant "mole" (naevus) in Orkhon Turkish...
166. Bekter... derives form the Orkhon Turkish word for armour and military equpment more generally.
170. The word "otermeleju" transllated here as "shot at" derives from the Orkhon Turkish "oter" to beat or to kill (oltir in Kazakh).
207. ...moqariya derives from the Orkhon Turkish mokai, a large male brown bear...
208. Maliyasuqay"sacrifice" was an Orkhon Turkish word...
209. ...yeke maqalay (big hat)... - (malakhay - Turkic word even in Russian - A.)

Enough for today...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 16:38
Originally posted by Akskl

Page 241, ref. 577:
"The Ula and the Na'u are the Songari and Na'un (Onon) River..."

Even Onon (i.e. Na'u or Na'un, as we know now) river also was renamed by Khalkha-Mongols?!!

References to the so-called "Orkhon Turkish dialect" in the Urgunge Onon's "Secret History":
 
ONON river name is still ONON in present Mongolia. Check on web

http://www.mnec.org.mn/sgp/eriver.htm

Onon River
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Onon gol is a river in Mongolia and Russia of length 818 km and watershed 94,010 sq. km. It originates at the Eastern slope of the Kente Mountain (Khentii Mountain). For 298 km it flows within Mongolia. Its confluence with Ingoda River produces Shilka River.

It is claimed that Genghis Khan was born next to it and grew up there.

The flow OnonShilkaAmur produces one of the world's ten longest rivers (818km + 560km + 2,874km).


72. Tenggis - ocean -
 
Tengis is still in use, it means  SEE ( Black see- Khar tenggis) in Modern Mongolian language (MML) -
79. Soqor - blind-
 
Sogor is Sokhor in MML, still in use/ It means blind as you mentioned

81. Tunggelik or Tonggelik river - means "to flow" or a "wheel" in Kazakh (dongheleg), and not related to "deresu" - "mat-thorn grass" as Urgunge Onon proposes. -
No comment

82. Alan Qo'a - "Outstanding beauty" in Orkhon Turkish
 
We say AlunGoo or Alungua, you may be right.
I  think Alun or Alan is name of the women. Goo stands for beauty. So it may be means - Alan the Beautiful.

83. Kol - lake
 
You are right. We have Lake Huvsugul in North of Mongolia.
1. Lake Huvsgul- this name has turkic origin - Huv + hoh (gok) + su + gul
Huv ? -hoh (gok) means - blue
su - is turkish water. Water is US in Mongolian language.
gul - is lake in Turkic.
So in old time the name was goksugul (koksukul)
- blue water lake-

It become Huvsugul - in modern Mongolian

86.-lar, -nar plural ending inTurkic
 
Nar- is also Mongolian plural ending for word related person/human.
 
We have more endigns like - uud, s, d,
 

125. Shinqor -kind of falcon (Sunqar in Kazakh), bilge -wise, beki - "another Orkhon Turkish title"
 
- Shinqor is also SHONHOR in Modern Mongolian. It means FALCON.
 
-Bilge- Bileg, or Beleg -this name also wide spread name for todays Mongolians. Meaning is exactly same, bileg - wise knowledgeable,  good omen symbol,
Belgutei- another brother of Chinggis Khaan. -

128. "Otchigin is a compound of the Orkhon Turkish word ot -"fire" ("ot" in Kazakh -A.)..." " Buri" means "wolf" in the Orkhon Turkish dialect..."
 
Otchigin Noyon- Youngest brother of Chinggis Khaan - His name means youngest, fire keeper of Fathers house. It is true that this name has Turkic origin. He was youngest , stayed in home land, so took care mother Oulen queen mother of Chinggis.

Even today in Mongolia, many men and women have name OTGON- changed form of OTCHIGIN, most of them usually youngest. Youngest sons stay at home following tradition, inherit fathers household. Older boys travel out, just like Chinggis gave farthest place to his older sons Chagadai and Zochi.
Ironically, no kazakh or turkic people has name otgon or such a tradition
 

129. "Kishlig ...means "huge", "broad-minded", "boastful" in Orkhon Turkish... "Darqan" translated here as "freedman" is an Orkhon Turkish term ...
 
Kishlig - It may be HUCHLEG- in Mongolian language- means similar to macho.
 
Darqan - also similar darkhan is person or animal freed of any punishment or burden. Some good horses are usually protected under term DARKHAN -drakhalsan- in verb.
There were still group of people called DARKHAD- whose duty was only to protect and  take care of Chinggis  Khaan Sacrificial Places in Ordos Inner Mongolia. http://pedia.nodeworks.com/M/MA/MAU/Mausoleum_of_Genghis_Khan
 
These people were freed from any other taxation , military service and other burdens.
 

131. ...Kolen means large lake in Orkhon Turkish...
 
Might be

141. The text says "older brother" (aqa) (agha in Kazakh - A.)
 
Yes . in Mongolia we use word AGA, AKHA refering to older brother.

148. ...the prefix dei-, derived from an Orkhon Turkish word meant "mother's younger brother"...
 
NO COMMENT

149. Quda ... page 57: Dei-sechen said: "Yisugei-quda..." (quda means relatives trough marriage in Kazakh, and not derived from "qudaldaqu - to sell", as Urgunge Onon proposes - A.)
QUDA
KHUD- this is also Mongolian word too. KHUD URAG means relatives through marriage.

156. Monglik meant "mole" (naevus) in Orkhon Turkish...
166. Bekter... derives form the Orkhon Turkish word for armour and military equpment more generally.
 
NO COMMENT

170. The word "otermeleju" transllated here as "shot at" derives from the Orkhon Turkish "oter" to beat or to kill (oltir in Kazakh).
 
We have same word.

207. ...moqariya derives from the Orkhon Turkish mokai, a large male brown bear...
208. Maliyasuqay"sacrifice" was an Orkhon Turkish word...

209. ...yeke maqalay (big hat)... - (malakhay - Turkic word even in Russian - A.)
MALAGAI- MALAHAI- MALGAI in Modern Mongolian language defending on prefered dialect.

Enough for today...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 23:04
Rashid-al-Din wrote:
Volume 1, Book 1, Ch.1 of the 4th part

A296
"According to what was wrote up in the Preface to that blessed book, the Mongqol tribes were one of the groups of the general mass of Turkic tribes, their guise and language were similar to each other's. All this people stems from Japhet - the seer Noah's son - peace with him! - who is called Buldja (Abuldja)-Khan and who was the common ancestor of all Turkic tribes..."

A306
"...Burjigin in Turkic means a blue-eyed man."

A8
"...The word Mongqol became name of their clan, and this name (now) is being transferred to other peoples which are similar to the Mongqols, because the generalization of of this name (with other peoples) began since epoch of the Mongqols - and the latter ones are one of the Turkic peoples..."

Edited by Akskl - 03-Jun-2006 at 23:08
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