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Topic ClosedThe Secret History of the Mongols

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Secret History of the Mongols
    Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 14:13
Originally posted by Akskl

Xi tujue, please don't use your "intuition" instead of information.

Similar discussion was here: Genghis Khan wasn't a Khalkha Mongol

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/lofiversion/index.php/t11740.html

Borudjin, be more courteous and serious, please.

 
I never said he was Khakha mongol but why does he have to be turkic GId i'm tired of this...
 
ys i Know the theory you believe in that modernday mongols are machus and that the old mongol tribes were Turkic....
 
it could be that modernday mongolians aren't all the same mongolians of the genishid period but that doesn't probe that the old mongolians were of teh turkic stock that only proves that they were assimilated into the turkic population i think during the khanats periode.
 
 
I could be wrong see I admit that I could be wrong.
 
there are only theories nothing is proven so loosen up and quit posting the same stuff you need to go to some ultranotionalistic turkic site.
 
don't get me wrong I'm also a nationalist well not realy   I love my country and my people but Im not going to make wild claims and say that every great warrior leader that has lived has the same origin or blood as i do
 
 
this is my theory how many posts do you have 164 yes? .
 
I bet that al least 100 of them are about "prooving" that gebghis khan wasn't khalkha  ... hey... I could be wrong
 
 
well take care
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 23:53
Don't worry, he has already been banned. Some people are simply unrehabilitable.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 23:31
Xi tujue, please don't use your "intuition" instead of information.

Similar discussion was here: Genghis Khan wasn't a Khalkha Mongol

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/lofiversion/index.php/t11740.html

Borudjin, be more courteous and serious, please.



Edited by Akskl - 08-Nov-2006 at 23:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 14:53
Originally posted by borudjin

 maybe hes a khalka nationalist pretending to be an uyghur? maybe im a khalka pretending to be a turk so i can manipulate the argument into my interests?
 
i just messed with evryones mind. muahahaha
 
 
well barbar is wrong and akskl is right! i believe :D
 
 
i think you are akskl if not at least you are his clone(not realy the same person)
 
you guys are all the same ultra nationalistics and everybody who doesn't agree with you is an imposter or a hippie etc...


Edited by xi_tujue - 08-Nov-2006 at 14:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 08:27
Borodjin you are already walking on thin ice.  Either cut the dimwitted comments or you'll find a one way ticket out of here.
Barbar is an esteemed member who has shown his dedication to scholarly debates.  You, on the other hand, need to establish yourself first by becoming familiar with the Codes of Conduct.. 


Edited by Seko - 08-Nov-2006 at 08:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 08:26
So the Yuan dynasty was turkic? What about the Il-Khanids?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 07:42
 maybe hes a khalka nationalist pretending to be an uyghur? maybe im a khalka pretending to be a turk so i can manipulate the argument into my interests?
 
i just messed with evryones mind. muahahaha
 
 
well barbar is wrong and akskl is right! i believe :D
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 07:37
Originally posted by borudjin

mongol nowadays is a misnomer. before mongol meant part of a turkic peoples and was a tribe that took hegemony over others, and now it means tungusic people who have no proven descent from genghis khan( eg the khalka). the khalka cannot prove descent from the genghizids who were turks.

also barbar is subjective in this topic because it appears that he is a khalka mongol-ian.
 
wrong barbar is uigur (turk)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 06:48

mongol nowadays is a misnomer. before mongol meant part of a turkic peoples and was a tribe that took hegemony over others, and now it means tungusic people who have no proven descent from genghis khan( eg the khalka). the khalka cannot prove descent from the genghizids who were turks.

also barbar is subjective in this topic
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Nov-2006 at 00:00
I just post citations from various sources and links.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 00:16
Askll, if you make another post about of the same nature, you will receive a warning for trolling. This condition extends beyond this thread. Estell has been banned for the previous post.


Edited by Imperator Invictus - 06-Jun-2006 at 00:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 23:19
 
I really don't understand Akskl, what you are trying to prove is only showing the influence of Turkic people on Monolians, and their relationship between each other,  with which very few people disagree. On the other hand, this is again showing they were different people. When on earth will you stop?
 
 
Either make a history or become a history.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 22:03
IGOR DE RACHEWILTZ, Turks in China under the Mongols: A Preliminary Investigation of Turco-Mongol Relations in the 13th and 14th Century, in: CHINA AMONG EQUALS - THE MIDDLE KINGDOM AND ITS NEIGHBORS, 10th - 14th CENTURIES, EDITED BY MORRIS ROSSABI, Chapter 10, University of California Press - Berkeley - Los Angeles London, pp.281-310.

http://www.kyrgyz.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=263

The Turkish peoples that I have surveyed for the present investigation are the following: Uighur, Kharlukh, Khangli, Kipchak, Ongut, Kereyid, Naiman

We must not forget also that, as a young man and for many years, Chinggis Khan had been a client and an ally of the Kereyid court, and that he must inevitably have been exposed to Turkish culture through this close association. It is perhaps not fortuitous that the very title he assumed, Chinggis Khan, is of Turkish origin [8].

To-lo-chu (died before 1260), also from Khocho, who taught the Uighur script to Mongol nobles and also to Khubilai [23].

Of the 5 Naimans, 1 was Batus teacher Pai Pu hua (Beg Bukha) [35],

As was mentioned earlier, Khubilai was instructed in Uighur script by To-lo-chu. While still a prince he had as senior secretary Shiban, and among the people who, in one capacity or another, served him in these formative years were Uighurs like Lien Hsi-hsien, Esen Nai, Arigh Khaya, and Meng-su-ssu (Mungsuz).



http://www.uscolo.edu/history/seminar/sauma.htm

YAHBH-ALLAHA ELECTED PATRIARCH

"...The reason for his election was this: The kings who held the steering poles of the government of the whole world were MUGLAYE (Mongols), and there was no man except MAR YAHBH-ALLAHA who was acquainted with their manners and customs, and their policy of government, and their language..."

MAR YAHBH-ALLAHA was Ongut Turk (who  now  are Kazakhs).






Edited by Akskl - 05-Jun-2006 at 22:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 14:03

Well of course Khubilai used Turkic when dealing with foreigners. Who spoke Mongolian back then? Hardly anyone. But many people knew Turkic. So it makes sense that Khubilai would use a more common language to deal with foreigners. That's not proof that Khubilai was a Turk. It just means he was intelligent enough to realize that his own language was diplomatically useless.

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 13:20
Marco Polo, his father and uncle spoke with Emperor Kublai Khan in Turki language:  

http://www.silk-road.com/artl/marcopolo.shtml

"...The Great Khan, Mangu's brother, Kublai, was indeed hospitable. He had set up his court at Beijing, which was not a Mongol encampment but an impressive city built by Kublai as his new capital after the Mongols took over China in 1264 and established Yuan dynasty (1264-1368). Kublai asked them all about their part of the world, the Pope and the Roman church. Niccolo and Matteo, who spoke Turkic dialects perfectly, answered truthfully and clearly. The Polo brothers were well received in the Great Khan's capital. One year later, the Great Khan sent them on their way with a letter in Turki addressed to Pope Clement IV asking the Pope to send him 100 learned men to teach his people about Christianity and Western science. He also asked Pope to procure oil from the lamp at the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem..."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 23:49
Yes - and?... It is commonly known that Rashid ad-Din referred to Mongols as Turkic. But that holds no signifcance just as how the Chinese referred to the Mongols as ta-ta-er. In this specific case, Rashid referred the Mongols as Turkic because there was a large number of Turkic people under the Mongols and that most nomadic tribes in Mongolia were to some degree similar. Rashid failed to make that distinction. 

Edited by Imperator Invictus - 03-Jun-2006 at 23:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 23:04
Rashid-al-Din wrote:
Volume 1, Book 1, Ch.1 of the 4th part

A296
"According to what was wrote up in the Preface to that blessed book, the Mongqol tribes were one of the groups of the general mass of Turkic tribes, their guise and language were similar to each other's. All this people stems from Japhet - the seer Noah's son - peace with him! - who is called Buldja (Abuldja)-Khan and who was the common ancestor of all Turkic tribes..."

A306
"...Burjigin in Turkic means a blue-eyed man."

A8
"...The word Mongqol became name of their clan, and this name (now) is being transferred to other peoples which are similar to the Mongqols, because the generalization of of this name (with other peoples) began since epoch of the Mongqols - and the latter ones are one of the Turkic peoples..."

Edited by Akskl - 03-Jun-2006 at 23:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 16:38
Originally posted by Akskl

Page 241, ref. 577:
"The Ula and the Na'u are the Songari and Na'un (Onon) River..."

Even Onon (i.e. Na'u or Na'un, as we know now) river also was renamed by Khalkha-Mongols?!!

References to the so-called "Orkhon Turkish dialect" in the Urgunge Onon's "Secret History":
 
ONON river name is still ONON in present Mongolia. Check on web

http://www.mnec.org.mn/sgp/eriver.htm

Onon River
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Onon gol is a river in Mongolia and Russia of length 818 km and watershed 94,010 sq. km. It originates at the Eastern slope of the Kente Mountain (Khentii Mountain). For 298 km it flows within Mongolia. Its confluence with Ingoda River produces Shilka River.

It is claimed that Genghis Khan was born next to it and grew up there.

The flow OnonShilkaAmur produces one of the world's ten longest rivers (818km + 560km + 2,874km).


72. Tenggis - ocean -
 
Tengis is still in use, it means  SEE ( Black see- Khar tenggis) in Modern Mongolian language (MML) -
79. Soqor - blind-
 
Sogor is Sokhor in MML, still in use/ It means blind as you mentioned

81. Tunggelik or Tonggelik river - means "to flow" or a "wheel" in Kazakh (dongheleg), and not related to "deresu" - "mat-thorn grass" as Urgunge Onon proposes. -
No comment

82. Alan Qo'a - "Outstanding beauty" in Orkhon Turkish
 
We say AlunGoo or Alungua, you may be right.
I  think Alun or Alan is name of the women. Goo stands for beauty. So it may be means - Alan the Beautiful.

83. Kol - lake
 
You are right. We have Lake Huvsugul in North of Mongolia.
1. Lake Huvsgul- this name has turkic origin - Huv + hoh (gok) + su + gul
Huv ? -hoh (gok) means - blue
su - is turkish water. Water is US in Mongolian language.
gul - is lake in Turkic.
So in old time the name was goksugul (koksukul)
- blue water lake-

It become Huvsugul - in modern Mongolian

86.-lar, -nar plural ending inTurkic
 
Nar- is also Mongolian plural ending for word related person/human.
 
We have more endigns like - uud, s, d,
 

125. Shinqor -kind of falcon (Sunqar in Kazakh), bilge -wise, beki - "another Orkhon Turkish title"
 
- Shinqor is also SHONHOR in Modern Mongolian. It means FALCON.
 
-Bilge- Bileg, or Beleg -this name also wide spread name for todays Mongolians. Meaning is exactly same, bileg - wise knowledgeable,  good omen symbol,
Belgutei- another brother of Chinggis Khaan. -

128. "Otchigin is a compound of the Orkhon Turkish word ot -"fire" ("ot" in Kazakh -A.)..." " Buri" means "wolf" in the Orkhon Turkish dialect..."
 
Otchigin Noyon- Youngest brother of Chinggis Khaan - His name means youngest, fire keeper of Fathers house. It is true that this name has Turkic origin. He was youngest , stayed in home land, so took care mother Oulen queen mother of Chinggis.

Even today in Mongolia, many men and women have name OTGON- changed form of OTCHIGIN, most of them usually youngest. Youngest sons stay at home following tradition, inherit fathers household. Older boys travel out, just like Chinggis gave farthest place to his older sons Chagadai and Zochi.
Ironically, no kazakh or turkic people has name otgon or such a tradition
 

129. "Kishlig ...means "huge", "broad-minded", "boastful" in Orkhon Turkish... "Darqan" translated here as "freedman" is an Orkhon Turkish term ...
 
Kishlig - It may be HUCHLEG- in Mongolian language- means similar to macho.
 
Darqan - also similar darkhan is person or animal freed of any punishment or burden. Some good horses are usually protected under term DARKHAN -drakhalsan- in verb.
There were still group of people called DARKHAD- whose duty was only to protect and  take care of Chinggis  Khaan Sacrificial Places in Ordos Inner Mongolia. http://pedia.nodeworks.com/M/MA/MAU/Mausoleum_of_Genghis_Khan
 
These people were freed from any other taxation , military service and other burdens.
 

131. ...Kolen means large lake in Orkhon Turkish...
 
Might be

141. The text says "older brother" (aqa) (agha in Kazakh - A.)
 
Yes . in Mongolia we use word AGA, AKHA refering to older brother.

148. ...the prefix dei-, derived from an Orkhon Turkish word meant "mother's younger brother"...
 
NO COMMENT

149. Quda ... page 57: Dei-sechen said: "Yisugei-quda..." (quda means relatives trough marriage in Kazakh, and not derived from "qudaldaqu - to sell", as Urgunge Onon proposes - A.)
QUDA
KHUD- this is also Mongolian word too. KHUD URAG means relatives through marriage.

156. Monglik meant "mole" (naevus) in Orkhon Turkish...
166. Bekter... derives form the Orkhon Turkish word for armour and military equpment more generally.
 
NO COMMENT

170. The word "otermeleju" transllated here as "shot at" derives from the Orkhon Turkish "oter" to beat or to kill (oltir in Kazakh).
 
We have same word.

207. ...moqariya derives from the Orkhon Turkish mokai, a large male brown bear...
208. Maliyasuqay"sacrifice" was an Orkhon Turkish word...

209. ...yeke maqalay (big hat)... - (malakhay - Turkic word even in Russian - A.)
MALAGAI- MALAHAI- MALGAI in Modern Mongolian language defending on prefered dialect.

Enough for today...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2006 at 15:33
Page 241, ref. 577:
"The Ula and the Na'u are the Songari and Na'un (Onon) River..."

Even Onon (i.e. Na'u or Na'un, as we know now) river also was renamed by Khalkha-Mongols?!!

References to the so-called "Orkhon Turkish dialect" in the Urgunge Onon's "Secret History":

72. Tenggis - ocean
79. Soqor - blind
81. Tunggelik or Tonggelik river - means "to flow" or a "wheel" in Kazakh (dongheleg), and not related to "deresu" - "mat-thorn grass" as Urgunge Onon proposes.
82. Alan Qo'a - "Outstanding beauty" in Orkhon Turkish
83. Kol - lake
86.-lar, -nar plural ending inTurkic
125. Shinqor -kind of falcon (Sunqar in Kazakh), bilge -wise, beki - "another Orkhon Turkish title"
128. "Otchigin is a compound of the Orkhon Turkish word ot -"fire" ("ot" in Kazakh -A.)..." " Buri" means "wolf" in the Orkhon Turkish dialect..."
129. "Kishlig ...means "huge", "broad-minded", "boastful" in Orkhon Turkish... "Darqan" translated here as "freedman" is an Orkhon Turkish term ...
131. ...Kolen means large lake in Orkhon Turkish...
141. The text says "older brother" (aqa) (agha in Kazakh - A.)
148. ...the prefix dei-, derived from an Orkhon Turkish word meant "mother's younger brother"...
149. Quda ... page 57: Dei-sechen said: "Yisugei-quda..." (quda means relatives trough marriage in Kazakh, and not derived from "qudaldaqu - to sell", as Urgunge Onon proposes - A.)
156. Monglik meant "mole" (naevus) in Orkhon Turkish...
166. Bekter... derives form the Orkhon Turkish word for armour and military equpment more generally.
170. The word "otermeleju" transllated here as "shot at" derives from the Orkhon Turkish "oter" to beat or to kill (oltir in Kazakh).
207. ...moqariya derives from the Orkhon Turkish mokai, a large male brown bear...
208. Maliyasuqay"sacrifice" was an Orkhon Turkish word...
209. ...yeke maqalay (big hat)... - (malakhay - Turkic word even in Russian - A.)

Enough for today...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jun-2006 at 10:31
Originally posted by Akskl

Dear Tom, why don't you open links I provided, and books I cited?


I've looked at the links and books, and on other fora I've pointed out how your souces don't support your theories.

j' accuse  you are trolling...........


Edited by tadamson - 01-Jun-2006 at 10:32
rgds.

      Tom..
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