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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Topic: Which one is easier to read in your langu Posted: 06-May-2006 at 15:11 |
In Persian language, 1,000 years old texts are usually very easier than 100 years old texts, what about your language?
One of the first poems that Iranian students learn in the primary school is this 850 years old famous poem of Nizami Ganjavi:
Ey name to behtarin sar-aghaz Bi name to nameh key konam baz
(O, Your name is the best beginning Without Your name, when would I even open a letter)
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Maljkovic
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 15:34 |
With Croatian it's easier to read texts from a 100 years ago. By that time there was a unified grammar and spelling, before that everyone went their own way in writing.
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Northman
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 16:27 |
Definately newly written. In Denmark and Scandinavia, 1000 years ago, the written text was runes - if not Latin written by scholars. Until the middel of the 18'th century, there were no rules for spelling - things would be written like the writer said it, so words could look quite different because of local dialects. Also, the use of Gotic letters makes it difficult to read for most people.
Icelandish is the closest we can get to the old norse language - none - or almost no other language could influence the isolated island. The interesting part is - I cant understand Icelandish - but I can read it and get a fairly good conception of the content.
Swedes, Danes and Norwegians can understand each other - in speech and in writing.
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Spartakus
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Posted: 07-May-2006 at 14:25 |
More new ones.Ancient Hellenic ,especially those in poems and epic stories such as Odyssey ,are much more difficult than more new ones.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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akritas
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Posted: 07-May-2006 at 14:33 |
There are four major forms of the Greek language.
THe Homeric Greek , the Classical Greek , Medieval Greek and the Modern Greek. The most dificcult in the understanding and the comprehension are the Homeric. Absoloutely you need higher level of education. The last two are more easy to read and to understand general the meaning.
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Tangriberdi
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Posted: 07-May-2006 at 17:32 |
We Turks -if we have the knowledge of Arabic script- can read texts from 1700s and understand a few words. Because it is full of Arabic and Persian words.
We Turks -if we have the knowledge of Arabic script- can read texts from 1500 and before until 1300s we can understand 90% although its gramar is a little bit different.
We Turks -if we have the knowledge of Arabic scriptand Orkhun Runic Script - can read texts from 1200s and earlier times and we can understand 50% because its grammar is more different although it is the same in basics.
AN EXAMPLE
Modern Anatolian Turkish: Sylediin sz anlamyorum.
Middle Anatolian Turkish: Syledik szin'i an'lamazWn.
Karakhanid Turkic: Sylegen szin'ni tshinmesmen
Kokturkic: Reconstructed Sentence): Szlegen szin'ni tshinmezmen/Sablagan sabwn'w tshinmezmen
Meaning I do not understand what you say.
Transliteration:The word thou hast said of I do not understand
Edited by Tangriberdi
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Bashibozuk
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Posted: 08-May-2006 at 11:14 |
Modern Turkish is very close with the Turkish, spoken all over Anatolia by its locals for the last 1000 years. The folk literature was always oral, not provided by written sources. And it is very easy for us to understand a poem of Yunus Emre, Haji Bektash Veli or a Karamanoglu firman.
A poem of Shah Ismael Khatai of Safavids is much more easier than a "Divan" poem of Nab or Fuzul for us. But actually, Divan language was only understandable for the elites who were educated in medreses, who were fluent in Turkish, Arabic Persian and some even Greek. They actually constituted %2-3 of the people, and reminding the fact that %95 of Anatolia was illiterate before the Language Reform, so that it didn't change much for us.
But the real problem occurs when we are to translate Ottoman official documents to modern Turkish. The Kanunname of Sultan Mehmed II is easier for us to understand than late Ottoman documents which were more foreign influenced and more complex. They are full of Arabic vocabulary altough the main form and vocabulary is definately Turkish.
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Garibim, namima Kerem diyorlar,
Asli'mi el almis, harem diyorlar.
Hastayim, derdime verem diyorlar,
Marasli Seyhoglu Satilmis'im ben.
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Digenis
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Posted: 08-May-2006 at 16:16 |
Greek Homeric language :800 BC: understand mainly words,rarely whole phrases Classical Attic dialect 5th Cent Bc : understand more words ,and phrases-quiet understandable by the educated mainly -but still some phrases can sound really strange. Koene-the language in which the Gospels where written-1 cent AD: Understandable by most of the people-even the non-educated,although u cant use it to speak. Medieval Greek - 1000 AD.: Since the Byzantine period ,scholars use a more "formal" language-imitating the ancient attic of 5th cent,while the common people use the evolution of koene(kini). The peoples language is almost 100% understandable (although some words sound weird,or are unknown)
Next centuries ,the formal language becomes the "katharevousa" (smth like "clean") ,and the informal the "demotiki" ("public") - "Katharevousa" sounds souless and sometimes funny ,while demotiki is more vivid. This separation oficially ended in 1974,with adoption of demotiki in education and government.
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RomiosArktos
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Posted: 08-May-2006 at 17:08 |
I tried once to read the Alexiad of Anna Komnene ,which was written in
the 12th century A.D.,but it was very difficult for me to understand
the meaning because the syntax was weird and strange like in ancient
Greek/attic dialect.
Then I decided to read the Strategikon of Kekaumenos which was written
in the 11th century A.D. and i realised that the language was very
similar to the demotiki that we speak today.The syntax was not like in
the Alexiad.
The second book obviously was written in the language of the common
people and was aimed to be read by non-educated people like generals
and officers of the army.It was like a manual written by an experienced
general as a guideline to the new officers of the Byzantine army.
On the contrary the Alexiad was written in an archaic language by Anna Comnene,a historian
Edited by RomiosArktos
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RomiosArktos of many colors and shapes
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Theodore Felix
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Posted: 08-May-2006 at 17:32 |
The Meshari, a transcript written in latin alphabet in Venice around the 16th century is the oldest surviving work in Albanian and is damn tough to understand for me. Its very very latinized. Similarly I have tried to understand dialects like Arvanitik(heavy Greek influence) or Arberesh(heavy Italian influence) and they too are extremely difficult. The Albanian works in the Arabic script are damn near impossible even in the latin alphabet as they are filled with an emmense amount of Persian, Arabic and Turkish words(most of which were taken out of the Alb vocab during the communist period). Another problem is that Albanian has never been united in terms of alphabets, during the 19th century as many as 10 alphabets were being used in the land. All changing and morphing the language with it.
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Raider
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Posted: 09-May-2006 at 06:59 |
Later texts are easier. The main problem was that the latin alphabet did not fit to the Hungarian phonemes.
Example:
Funeral Oration from 1195 (The first existing text in Hungarian)
Original text:
Latiatuc feleym umtuchel mic vogmuc. a pur e chomuv uogmuc. Meni milotben terumteve eleve mv iemucut adamut. e odutta vola neki paradiumut ha.
...
Modernized version with modern letters:
Ltjtuk feleim szmtkhel, mik vogymuk: is, por s homou vogymuk. Mnyi milosztben termtev elev mi ismkt dmot, s adutt val neki pradicsumot hzo.
...
In Modern Hungarian:
Ltjtok, feleim, szemetekkel, mik vagyunk: me, por s hamu vagyunk. Mennyi malasztban teremt kezdetben [r] mi snket, dmot, s adta vala neki paradicsomot hzz.
...
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ramin
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Posted: 09-May-2006 at 13:37 |
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
In Persian language, 1,000 years old texts are usually very easier than 100 years old texts, what about your language?
One of the first poems that Iranian students learn in the primary school is this 850 years old famous poem of Nizami Ganjavi |
what about this text from Gatha in Avestan lang. Cyrus, can you read it? "pad weh-den owon paydag i Ohrmazd balishtig pad hawishp-agathih ud-wethih zaman i akanarag andar roshnih hame bud. An roshnih gah ud-gyag i Ohrmazd, Ahrimen andar tarigih pad pas-danishnih" (Gatha: Yasna, 21.)
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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 09-May-2006 at 14:20 |
Avestan and Persian languages are two different languages, as far as I know the Gathas are a set of 17 hymns, what do you mean by "Gatha: Yasna, 21."?!
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ramin
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Posted: 13-May-2006 at 00:13 |
Yasna is consists of 72 chapters. the qouted passage is from chapter 21. you can find a website with Yasna texts and translations, and of course keep in mind that I had to rewrite it in Latin alphabets, so some spellings might differ.
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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"
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korena
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Posted: 17-May-2006 at 09:51 |
Hi, my name is Renata.
Will you please send me the whole poem (if you have)
Ey name to behtarin sar-aghaz Bi name to nameh key konam baz (its easy to read farsi this way :) )
I would like to know the English Translation
We just started to read it om my Farsi lesson and I really like it.
Please,
thanks for advance,
Renata
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