Turkic world

Originally posted by mamikon I did? Why dont you find my quote so I will remember.

It was something about Azeri's calling for jihad against Armenia. I cannot remember the thread now, it was quite a long time ago.

And why do you think wearing a hijab makes one Islamist. Are we using the "bad" connotation of Islamist here?

My grandma wears it and I would not think she is an Islamist. But she doesn't mind taking it off when she is photographed for passport or if she is asked to. On the other hand, there are persons in Turkey that use it to press on with their Islamic agendas, and they are clearly Islamists.
The ban of religious symbols in academic and state institutions is as I said in my opinion totally justified because people use it to manipulate and spread their ideology.

Mortaza may deny the pressure faced by unveiled women, but I know about it from my first hand experience as I have been to Turkey many times. Part of my family lives in Turkey also.

The ban holds equally for everybody so it is not a form of discrimination against anybody.  I find the complaints by some of the sort "oh please dont make me reveal my hair, I feel oppressed" ridiculous - these are not serious arguments. The veil is a symbol of backwardness, and it belongs to a different area.

If somebody feels too attached to their religion to the extent that they cannot reveal their hair, then I would say they have no place in the secular institutions. Turkey is a state where strict seperation of religion and state exists. Religious symbols and agents of religious ideology should not be allowed in secular institutions, fullstop! Religion is a private matter which is to remain within the confines of one's home.

Religion is a private matter which is to remain within the confines of one's home.

Well I don't think it should just be left private, as if its neglected and pushed aside it just makes extremists jobs a whole lot easier.

Religion should be explained properly by proper scholors and people without pollitical agenda's. If religion was properly taught, discussed and explained most problems would disappear.

The problem is not religion but those who try to corrupt and abuse religion.

The Mosque has traditionally played an important role in Turkish society. It has alot of respect from most of the people. Events such as Ramadan, paying Zakat, teaching Moral values to the young, teaching about the dangers of drugs and alcohol, the importance of family, gender equality. This should be encouraged, really encouraged and valued.

I think there is a problem especially in the youth of Western society regarding this. The positive value of religion should not be underestimated or dismissed.

Also terming and categorising people should be avoided. Someone can be a Muslim, agree with the religion being promoted in a proper way, be against the abuse of religion, while agreeing with parts of socialism, also capitalism etc etc
    

This is fasism,

Poor women who are forced to reveal their hair! It must be such a traumatic and horrible experience for them. How fascist of these horrible Turkish secularists.

Realy? So If someone force you to walk naked, It is also ridiculous, but my friend, most country call this things  as torture. I am  sure forcing someone to  walk partly naked is much different. Maybe you should learn what  is oppressin  and what is ridiclous too.    forcing some to be veiled  is oppression, but otherwise It is only ridicilous?  you are not honest.   The veil is a symbol of backwardness, and it belongs to a different area. Totally bullsh*t,Infact  now you are becoming  ridiculous.   No civilization ever rised because of nakedness. I dont know, women hair  have some  correlation with  civilization. Infact you show your face here,  It  is  you who belittle  veiled women.   Maybe we are in disagreement because I do not/have not live/lived in Turkey, and have not seen/heard that women wearing a hijab spread their ideology.   He is lying there is not such think, more than  30%  of Turkish  women  wear headscarf, and 99% of  them look for their own life.

The very fact that you draw parallel between being unveiled and naked just illustrates my point there is a pressure for unveiled women to "dress up". In a male dominated patriarchal society such as that in the conservative areas of Turkey, women who do not wear the veil are considered to be naked, as if they are "revealing" themselves, and there is a lot of harrassment against them from people such as yourself who equate being unveiled to being naked. Walking unveiled on the street is considered to be "shameful".

And please do not say that I am a lier. I have been to Istanbul's conservative areas, and because my sister did not wear the headscarf, people stared at her, esopecially guys, as if she was completely naked and they've never seen a women before - it is extremely uncomfortable, and at several points my sister did consider putting a veil so that she can walk comfortably without being stared upon. I do not want to imagine how local unveild women have to go through every day.

The veil is a symbol of a totally backward mentality that must changed. The headscarf ban is completely justified and it must continue.

Originally posted by Mortaza So  Turkey is better hell? without education, how do you think that people would continue  their life? without  education, you are simply jobless. So I insist,Turkey is hell for religious people.

Nobody is denied education. In fact everybody is entitled to education. But for one to be educated, he or she has to be willing to be educated and modernised, and this includes the willingness to reject the religious indoctrination of having to veil oneself.

Mortaza
So Turkey is better hell? without education, how do you think that people would continue their life? without education, you are simply jobless. So I insist,Turkey is hell for religious people.

What are you whining about now, there are no restrictions regarding education simply no religous ICONERY in schools.

There are religous schools and faculties, places of higher education religous learning, there are schools for the very religous.

If religion is so simple to you as a piece of material seperating that devilish scary hair then you have issue's my friend.

Seen as though the vast majority of Turkey is to some degree religous your silly implications are for a high majority of the population.

Religous people don't have any obstacles in Turkey, they have religous institutions, every village has one or most of the time more than one Mosque and a trained Hodja-Imam to teach religion properly. Ramadan and major Islamic holiday's are official state holiday's. There is religous education in the schools, there are religous school's if people want their child to have an Islamic education. Have religous Tv channels, Religous parties can be democratically elected etc etc

What problems are there.

Headscarf? Ok, this can so easily be solved, get it democratically changed. Oh but there is a problem isn't there, The Islamist party does not want to change this ruling does it, why? BECAUSE THEN IT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO POLLITICS LEFT.

Yes as sad as it is, the headscarf issue keeps the Islamist party alive with its strongest propoganda tool. Its ridiculous, today the ruling Party could so very easily simply say, Ok the Veil is permitted in HIGHER education. I say higher because allowing it in primary school is totally unacceptable as there are men who totally brainwash their daughters from when theyre little into thinking that they're second best to men, they must listen to men, be obediant and allow themselves to be dominated. So the Religous party can easily do this today but it doesn't want to. Because it wants to play with this for as long as it can as it means votes.

The Veil should be allowed in Higher Learning, it will be a fashion for a few months, then only the ones who really care will carry on wearing it and people can resume their lives without stupid polliticians creating problems out of absolutely nothing.

When this restriction is lifted, it will show democracy is working and the complainers will have nothing more to complain about.

The wearing of a piece of fabric is not a key or major part of the religion but listening to some you'd think that it was all that it was about. STOP TRIVIALLISING RELIGION.

Morfaza
This is fasism, If bulgaria ban turkish for everybody, I am sure It wont become a discrimination.

Is there any point even debating with such a derranged guy, its got to be the most ridiculous comparison I've ever seen in my life.

You can wear a Headscarf everywhere except if you work in the Government buildings and Schools.

In my school there was a school uniform, I didn't really like its colour but guess what I had to wear it, this didn't in any way Hinder my education but it was a Rule, I may have not agreed with it personally but you don't always get everything in life yourway. Was my school FASCIST.

The only fascism here is in your mentallity, you think that YOU have the right to decide what woman will and will not wear.

I hope many woman enter the Mejlis and voice their own independant opinions, they will be much more respected then certain men thinking they have the the right to speak on behalf of woman and that woman must automatically agree with them, how Fascist.

Mortaza
Realy? So If someone force you to walk naked,

WoW, I've heard it all now, so now your forced to walk naked. Most people dress modestly and its dressing modestly which is recommended. Not Arab Desert Fashion. Stop talking crap.


The veil is a symbol of backwardness, and it belongs to a different area.

That's wrong, material objects and dress do not make you advanced or backwards, its simply artificial. So to be modern I can just put on a mini-skirt and skimpy top but not have an education, understand nothing from technology and be a complete air-head

Its not a symbol of backwardness, its a dress-stlye and woman should be left to decide if they wish to wear it or not. There are many Traditional Headscarfs which are beautiful and belong in THIS era as they are a mark of Turkish culture and society.

The colourfull headscarfs and those ones with the gold coins, or the silver outlining etc etc what are wrong with these? nothing!

The most modern woman you see wearing these headscarfs, they are not backwards, they wear the traditional colourfull headdresses as a mark of their identity and culture.

There should be no pressure by men, a woman can decide what she will and won't wear.

Example is extreme and irrelevant. You mentioned "religious indoctrination of having to veil oneself", so I wouldn't see a problem if the female headscarf-wearing doctor does not have a problem to touch male patients. If she does, then she obviously has to choose another profession or to limit her clients to female ones.

Originally posted by Yiannis   Don't get me wrong, I also think that women having to wear head scarfs ir ridiculous and that religion (any religion) is the worse thing that has happened to this world, but what you say is besides the point.

 

Wearing head scarf is a cultural thing. It has nothing to do with religion. But sadly, people believe what they are told without investigating the issue. 

 

Originally posted by Yiannis   Everyone should be allowed to wear whatever s/he likes without being oppressed for it.

 

That I completely agreed.

I wouldn't want to be any...