Turkic world

You made some interesting points, but first I will address your "hallmarks of extermism".

1. You create the fictional enemy

Turks are good people - from my personal experience. But this "merced" who posted this thread focusing on Iran's Azarbaijani people, who are linguistically Turkic, but ethnically Iranian, is a blatant attempt to disrupt Iran's territorial integrity. Such pan-Turkic chauvanists are a real enemy, whether they have any political power or not. And as an Iranian, I naturally oppose them.


2. You invent a paranoia that the fictional enemy want to occupy your land

Actually, this is not fiction. The Ottoman Turks occupied north-western Iran on numerous occassions, while attempting to turkify the indegenous people. The rivalry between Saffavid Persia and Ottoman Turkey has alot of history - therefore, it is a legitimate concern, and not merely paranoia.


3. You de-humanise Turks into a collective mass which you look down upon

I can distinguish between different Turkic groups; from a Turkmen; to an Istanbuli Turk; to an Azerbaijani. It is pan-turkics who create the notion of a collective mass. Although I find their language repulsive, as do many Turks, I don't "look down" on them, but rather have a great appreciation of the masculine nature of Turkish warrior culture which originates from the Eurasian steppes. The nomadic steppe culture is also an Aryan heritage. There is great virtue in the nomadic lifestyle: to wonder free, far and wide, roaming the grasslands for adventure and thrill.

It is true that the current relationship between the Muslim world and the US, the world's sole superpower,  is asymetrical and doesn't allow States to follow independent policies irrespective of their national interests. But what these pan-nationalists fail to realize is that US hegemony is hostile to any form of nationalism. Hence, your dilemma of being "used" or to "use". American interest in Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan and Turkey is not based on any US sympathy for pan-Turkics, but corporate greed to usurp and channel energy resources from the Central-Asia-Caucasus region through obedient regimes to Western markets. Bypassing states that dare to exert independent policies or disobey US dictates, i.e. Russia, Iran. The Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan  is a prime example of this geopolitics.

The only means to successfully oppose Anglo-American Imperial ambitions is through a countering superpower. Whether the Middle-East can forge a Muslim superpower, and overcome ethno-cultural differences, remains to be seen. But this reality will not change with the hollow rhetoric of imbicile chauvanists of all stripes. If it is pride the prevents one from succumbing to capitalist tyranny; to have their aspirations domesticated; to be sucked into the decadent consumerist culture; to be propagandized with corporate media; to be spiritually bankrupt; to be feminized with egalitarian democracy; I prefer to keep my head up.

In the words of Nietzche:

"It is better to die in honour, if one cannot live in honour".






Dark Lord.

One cannot debate with a liberal degenerate without being hurled with nonsense epithets such as "racist", "paranoid", or "hateful". Now here's a self-righteous British bigot who goes on business trips to Baku and Ankara, and has evidently taken the mantle of Turkic nationalism, as a convenient bulwark against various anti-Western movements. A minor functionary serving in the malicious neo-imperial policies of Western capitalism: a totalitarian system that indirectly rules over non-Western countries, labelled as "third world", and forces them to accept tyrannical neoliberal economic policies, while their kleptocratic rulers are given baksheesh to recompense. This arrogant euro-centric stooge, preaches the wonders of capitalist tyranny, "human rights", "equality", "democracy" - but most of the "advancing Muslim countries" he mentions have atrocious records of genocide and despotic regimes: Turkey, a pseudo-democratic military dictatorship which slaughtered 35,000 Kurds in the  south-east during the 90's with US arms and support; Pakistan, a highly unstable country with frequent military coups that eagerly takes billions in handouts to ignore the will of its own people; Indonesia, under former Western-friendly despot, Suharto, the East Timorese were massacred wholesale with tacit US arms and support. The pattern evident to being a "best hope" for "advancing Muslim country" is basically to have obedient regimes that are willing to slaughter their own populace to enforce a pro-Western agenda.

The stench of moral hypocricy reaks from these busybody Western do-gooders, who, under the deceptive guise of "human rights", "democracy" and "freedom" continue to exploit developing countries, and ridicule them if they refuse to take orders. The old British form of colonialism with direct rule has been replaced by the new and savy neoliberal capitalist form, where countries are allowed to have various puppet regimes, as long as they are obedient to the dictates of their Anglo-American handlers. Slaves are today replaced with "cheap labour", and corporations are allowed to reap the profits from a permanent underclass that is denied the basic workers rights that are gradually being eroded in Western countries (i.e. 8 hour work day). The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer, while crafty Englishmen continue to play the chessboard of neo-imperialism, pitting one group against another, stirring instability, engaging in wars of aggression and building pipelines through bizarre routes through corrupt and obedient regimes. That is the game.

The Islamic Republic of Iran is not an ideal government, which I think most all Iranians here would agree, but at least Iran is following independent policies. For this successful opposition to US hegemony, Iranians are being punished with suffocating economic sanctions and threats of invasion.

Capitalism is that last form of totalitarian ideology remaining, as Fascism and Communism have dissappeared. The allure of Western liberal-democracy is a hollow shell, upheld with endless marketing and propaganda - but the edifice is rotten. The charade about "free-market" and "free-speech" are all lies - neither really exists. The whole ideology is self-destructive - the West is decaying into oblivion.





Dark Lord.

on what grounds do you say Iran and Syria are more backwards than Turkey and Azerbaidjan? you accuse him of being a hater, a racist and a paranoid but you yourself seem like one.

by the way your whole post is based on nothing but assumptions and your opinions. Visiting Baku doesnt make you a bigot, but it neither makes you a scholar.
    

Edited by mamikon - 19-May-2006 at 16:54

Actually Azerbiajan's situation is not much better than it was 10 years ago, the government is practically a greedy fascist dictatorship.

Edited by Zagros - 20-May-2006 at 11:12

As I've said, I've been there its rapidly developing, B-T-C is going to start pumping in a month or two so things are looking up.

Edited by Bulldog - 20-May-2006 at 14:39

Originally posted by Bulldog As I've said, I've been there its rapidly developing, B-T-C is going to start pumping in a month or two so things are looking up.   Realities are realities if your just going to be petty then fine it doesn't change what's going on.       Hovannisian: Armenian could become a �Failed State�   A renowned U.S. academic of Armenian descent launched on Thursday a scathing attack on the authorities in Yerevan, saying that their failure to hold free elections and respect political freedoms threatens to turn Armenia into a �failed state.� �Watching from the outside, we follow with pain the continuing electoral and other illegalities committed in Armenia,� he told RFE/RL in an interview. �We would have loved to see freedom of speech and thought in Armenia, instead of repression, secret police persecution and lies spread by state media.� Hovannisian, who is arguably the most famous of Armenian-American historians, believes that in some respects Armenia is now an even less democratic state than Turkey, its historical foe regularly castigated by the West for its poor human and civil rights record. �Sometimes we condemn Turkey and call it a military dictatorship. But the fact is that the press is freer there,� he said. http://www.armenialiberty.org Similarly Assoc. Prof. Dr. Sedat Laciner, director of Ankara-based USAK, shares the idea of "failed state": "Armenians failed to preserve their first independent Armenia. They sacrificed it for the so-called revenge. If they seek to survive as a state, they should have good relations with the neigbours. That's the first and foremost thing they have to realise. They relied on the Russians, British, French and Americans. Time passed and all of them went to their homes. And the Armenians with the Turks shared the same fate. Now the Armenians should not sacrifice their independent state. They need Turkey, if they want an independent Armenia. Otherwise, Armenia will be a tool in other nations' national interests." Poverty in Armenia Half the population still lives below the poverty line, unemployment is rampant and official corruption is widespread. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2820907.stm     Don't throw stones if you've got a glass house.     Turkey is the closest towards reaching the standards of the West and they are encouraging Azerbaijan to follow suite, its a shame other's in the region don't take their path aswell the people would be happy.   As bad as you say the West is, your all hear and don't seem to be complaining about life too much, as far as I know there's  not even free Internet usage in some of these countries so you wouldn't even be here discussing this today.

The Gentelman ignore the  the populations of Kurds in   Anatolia _Turkey currently at    34 million.

Originally posted by ramin Originally posted by Bulldog in Turkey and Azerbaijan woman have equal rights provided by law. I remember some friend telling me in Turkey girls are not allowed to wear Hejab in schools.

why does it have to be all hijab or no hijab...why cant the people choose what to wear?

wow so many turk haters in one topic  !