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world map in 1074
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oghuzkb View Drop Down
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Posts: 117 		  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: world map in 1074
    Posted: 30-Apr-2006 at 19:06

 This world map drawed by Kashgarli Mahmud in 1074.

green is sea-ocean,gray(originally blue) is rivers,red is mountains,yellow is city and desert.

 

 

latin script version ,check below post.



Edited by oghuzkb
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Posts: 4030 		  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2006 at 19:29
At least they knew it was round.
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
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Posts: 1027 		  Quote Anujkhamar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 06:25
@ Mila, quite alot of cultures outside of Europe did know that

@oghuzkb, is there any chance you can translate it, or atleast tell us an interpretation?
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Posts: 1066 		  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 11:37

Originally posted by Anujkhamar

alot of cultures outside of Europe did know that

Well, where are these "cultures" today?
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Posts: 1835 		  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 15:35

Kinda hard to decipher... looks like a futuristic map if you ask me or a calendar from a lost civilization.

 
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Posts: 767 		  Quote merced12 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 15:40
Originally posted by The Chargemaster

Originally posted by Anujkhamar

alot of cultures outside of Europe did know that

Well, where are these "cultures" today?

in asia
http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``
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Posts: 117 		  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 15:40

I  translated to latin script as below,check it out,if someone needs high resolution,then i can send it.
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Posts: 117 		  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 15:59

This map taken from his great work " diwanu lughatit turk " -----a Turkish language dictionary,three volumes in total.this map placed at the last page of the first volume.In the preface,Mahmud Kashghery said he had spent 15 years to accomplish this book.

One interesting thing about this map.You see,in the south east corner of the map,he named the place as weird people land,in his book he also predicted that those weird people increas very fast and future will spread all over the world and will rule all other people.

This is 1074,how did he know the world is rounded and surrounded by water is a mystery.



Edited by oghuzkb
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 16:10
Originally posted by oghuzkb

This map taken from his great work " diwanu lughatit turk " -----a Turkish language dictionary,three volumes in total.this map placed at the last page of the first volume.In the preface,Mahmud Kashghery said he had spent 15 years to accomplish this book.

One interesting thing about this map.You see,in the south east corner of the map,he named the place as weird people land,in his book he also predicted that those weird people increas very fast and future will spread all over the world and will rule all other people.

This is 1074,how did he know the world is rounded and surrounded by water is a mystery.

those weird people are chinese?
Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
[IMG">http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg">
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Posts: 117 		  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 16:25
May be,I dont know:-)...
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-May-2006 at 16:28

Pythagoras was perhaps the first to propose a spherical world, arguing that the sphere was the most perfect form.He studied this at 6th B.C.found harmony in the universe and sought to explain it. He reasoned that Earth and the other planets must be spheres, since the most harmonious geometric form was a circle.

And after of him were Plato,Aritoteles,Erasthonis and Ptolemeos.So I think 1500-800 years before Mahmud Kashghery had already many geographers that spoke for a spherical world
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Posts: 117 		  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2006 at 15:52
Originally posted by akritas

Pythagoras was perhaps the first to propose a spherical world, arguing that the sphere was the most perfect form.He studied this at 6th B.C.found harmony in the universe and sought to explain it. He reasoned that Earth and the other planets must be spheres, since the most harmonious geometric form was a circle.

And after of him were Plato,Aritoteles,Erasthonis and Ptolemeos.So I think 1500-800 years before Mahmud Kashghery had already many geographers that spoke for a spherical world

I am not quastioning who is the first,and I have read books about those Greek scientists,they are great!

Here,lets just concentrate our mind on this map,indeed,it gives us lot of information,although the distance ratio is not perfect.By the way ,how many old maps like this we have,especially  before 11th century.So this one is really really valuable.Put our bias aside ,and enjoy this map,see there are countries: Japan,Spain,Russian,Bulgar,India,Niger,moroc co,Rom,Sirlanka...; edge of north ice ocean,Sahara dessert,rivers: Amu,sir,ili,irtish,volga... and caspian and aral seas...
ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature.        ---Jamaliddin Efghany
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Posts: 1460 		  Quote akritas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2006 at 16:30
oghuzkb I didn't have any attidude either.My quote is just a responce to some posts that said "at least they knew". Continue your amazing post. And I except and other similar  posts from others Turks, not only  Kashgarli Mahmud but also from   Evligia  Celebey, Xaje Calfa that desribed  the Balkans in 17th cent.

Edited by akritas
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Posts: 366 		  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 12:51
Originally posted by Anujkhamar

@ Mila, quite alot of cultures outside of Europe did know that 
 
And quite alot in Europe knew that. And quite a lot outside of Europe did not.


Edited by Degredado - 18-May-2006 at 12:51
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Posts: 366 		  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 12:52
Originally posted by merced12

Originally posted by The Chargemaster

Originally posted by Anujkhamar

alot of cultures outside of Europe did know that

Well, where are these "cultures" today?

in asia

Which explains why the Japanese were so amazed when the Portuguese told them that the world was round.
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Posts: 366 		  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2006 at 12:54
And where are the Jiliki on that map?
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Posts: 735 		  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 12:58
Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by oghuzkb

This map taken from his great work " diwanu lughatit turk " -----a Turkish language dictionary,three volumes in total.this map placed at the last page of the first volume.In the preface,Mahmud Kashghery said he had spent 15 years to accomplish this book.

One interesting thing about this map.You see,in the south east corner of the map,he named the place as weird people land,in his book he also predicted that those weird people increas very fast and future will spread all over the world and will rule all other people.

This is 1074,how did he know the world is rounded and surrounded by water is a mystery.

those weird people are chinese?
 
This map is not proportionally depicted, as its centred in Central Asian region, which you can see places like Tashkent and Khotan, they are relative accurate there, then become obscure as the focus is further shifting away from the region of central Asia.
 
Thus judging the proximity and general direction of the so called "weird people land", it could be Tibet, as they are bordering India.
 
Then this doest seem to match the "prediction" regarding these "weird people", which you think Chinese are more likely the candidate.
 
Yet, the cartographer knows Uighur cities and to the east of them there existing a country of Japan, and given the general direction in relavance to Uighur to the west and Japan to the east, "weird land people" could be Chinese as well.
 
But this begs the question, since this is a 11th century map, which the Tang dynasty of China had existed from 618-907 before, with its influence once reached central Asia http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/Tang_dynasty.PNG
 
 
then how could the cartographer ignore all that and subsequent information regarding Chinese state, but knows the existence of Japan, which is even further east of China? or is the cartographer artificially name Chinese as "weird people" for some unknown reason?
 
btw, what is Janbalikh? is it the same to Khanbaliq? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanbaliq
then it could be reference of the Chinese, then what "weird people" could be? also, Khanbaliq should be mentioned rather few hundred years later than the date of this map's production, then Janbalikh probably doest equate to the Yuan city of Beijing, then what it refers to?
 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 20-May-2006 at 13:32
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Posts: 117 		  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 11:26
Originally posted by The Charioteer

 
 
Then this doest seem to match the "prediction" regarding these "weird people", which you think Chinese are more likely the candidate.
 
 
please dont take it too serious,its just a perdiction.
 
Originally posted by The Charioteer

then how could the cartographer ignore all that and subsequent information regarding Chinese state, but knows the existence of Japan, which is even further east of China? or is the cartographer artificially name Chinese as "weird people" for some unknown reason?
 
you can also assume that the place called Machin right south-west of Japan is china,since Chin is the old name for China and Chinese people.
 
Originally posted by The Charioteer

 
btw, what is Janbalikh? is it the same to Khanbaliq?
then it could be reference of the Chinese, then what "weird people" could be? also, Khanbaliq should be mentioned rather few hundred years later than the date of this map's production, then Janbalikh probably doest equate to the Yuan city of Beijing, then what it refers to?
 
 
 
surely not ,cuase he placed that city between Bishbalikh and Khuju.Old Bishbalikh city ruin now is in Jimsar county close to Urumchi,Khuju is close to Turpan,the distance of two old city ruins less than 200 kilometers.
 


Edited by oghuzkb - 21-May-2006 at 11:45
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Posts: 117 		  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 11:43
Originally posted by Degredado

And where are the Jiliki on that map?
 
sorry there is no place called Jiliki,may be you misread,sorry it looks not clear.i will do it better later.
 
BTW which part you have found? I will tell you
 
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Posts: 366 		  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 12:57
Jilikiya: Galicia. In the beginning, the arabs did make a distinction between the Franks and the peoples of northern Iberia.
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