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Seng-Kuo-Lin-Chin 
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 28-Apr-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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 Topic: Mongol Empire questionsPosted: 28-Apr-2006 at 23:49 |
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Any amateur can acquire a decent understanding of the borders of the 13th century Mongol Empire relatively quickly on the internet, and there's plenty of information out there about the Mongols' major wars against China, the Mamelukes, Europeans, etc. But there's three things about which I'm totally blank! 1) What was the exent of Mongol control NORTH, into Siberia? Many maps have it roughly even with Lake Baikal, which corresponds with the northern border of traditional Mongolia. Does this mean that the Mongols never bothered to take over lands farther north? My assumption has always been that there was never anything worth taking over that far north, compared to the riches of China and the Middle East. But I read somewhere that their control extended "virtually all the way to the Arctic Ocean" although I don't remember the source...
2) What happened to the invasion of Java in 1296 (correct me if that's the wrong date)? Did they run into weather trouble like in Japan, or was the jungle too much for them as in parts of Indochina, or was the distance too great for success to be possible? I've never seen any details about this expedition - why it was launched, or what became of it. I'm surprised they knew how to get to Java! I don't know if the Javanese traded directly with China or anything...
3) I've read a few times that the Mongols invaded northern Vietnam/Tonkin/Annam and that they couldn't make too much headway because of dense jungle and disease. But then, how on earth did they conquer Pagan/Bagan in central Burma? If Vietnam was too tough for them, how could they have been victorious in Burma? They both have formidable jungle and rugged mountains, don't they? How did they succeed in taking a large army from Yunnan into central Burma? Or am I totally wrong and they failed in both campaigns? |
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Snafu
Knight 
Joined: 14-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 72 |
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Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 11:26 |
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1) Genghis' eldest son Jochi lead the campaign into Siberia in 1207. The tribes he conquered are listed in the Secret history--The Oirat, the Khirgiz, the Tumat, the Buriyat, the Barkun, the Ursut, the Qabqanas, the Qangqas, the Tubas, the Sibir, the Kastimi, the Bayit, the Tuqas, the Teleng, the To'eles, the Tas, and the Bajigit. The Oirat, Khirgiz, Tumat, Buriyat, and Barkun all lived to the east and west of Lake Baikal. As for the other tribes they could have lived further north. I'm not sure because I'm not familiar with them. 2)Hostilities with Java started in 1289 when Khubilai Khan demanded the submission of Kertanagara, the last king of Java's Singosari dynasty. The king defiantly carved his refusal into the forehead of the Mongol envoy. In 1292 a Mongol invasion fleet set sail for Java, but while they were still en route a Javanese prince named Jayakatwang lead a coup against the King and killed him. Kertanagara's son-in-law Vijaya submitted to the Mongols when they arrived and requested their help in dethroning the usurper Jayakatwang. With the Mongols' help Vijaya won the throne and became the new king. But as soon as he was in power he turned against the Mongols and chased them out of Java in defeat. 3) The Mongols first invaded the kingdom of Champa (south Vietnam) in 1281. But the Champa king, Jaya Indravarman VI, used guerilla warfare against the Mongols and eventually drove them back. The Mongols tried to enlist the help of the king of Annam (northern Vietnam), but he too resisted with guerilla warfare. Between the guerilla attacks, the heat, and outbreaks of disease, the Mongols had to retreat. A second invasion force against Annam, launched in 1286, was able to reach as far as Hanoi. But again the heat and unfavorable climate forced the Mongols to retreat. Although they never surrendered, the kings of Annam and Champa eventually started sending tribute to the Mongols, just to keep the peace. The first Mongol attacks against Pagan came in 1277 after the king, Narathihapate, refused to submit to the Mongols. A Muslim named Nasir Al Din lead the Mongol forces against Pagan. In one critical battle Nasir managed to defeat Narathihapate by ordering his men to shoot at the King's unprotected war elephants, causing a stampede. But despite this victory the king escaped and Pagan was not defeated. Ten years later in 1287 the Mongols attacked Pagan again, and this time they killed King Narathihapate and conquered Pagan. |
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Snafu
Knight
Joined: 14-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 72 |
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Posted: 01-May-2006 at 12:16 |
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Here's a more detailed account of the Java campaign courtesy of Stephen Turnbull:
Java was the most far-flung destination of all the Mongol campaigns in south-east Asia. Just as in the Burmese and Vietnamese situations, the process began with Khubilai Khan sending an envoy demanding homage from King Kertanagara, the ruler of Java, who responded by branding the ambassador's face. The subsequent Mongol expedition, which set out in 1292, was therefore intended to avenge this grave insult. A large naval force comparable to that used against Japan 11 years earlier carried out the invasion. The fleet set sail from Quanzhou (the place that Marco Polo calls Zaytun) and took several months to reach Java because they chose an open-sea route, calling at small islands, rather than one that followed the coast through Malacca and Sumatra. We are told that 'the wind was strong and the sea very rough, so that the ships rolled heavily and the soldiers could not eat for many days.' The Mongols landed early in 1293 near to present-day Rembang on the north-eastern coast of Java. The Mongol commander landed half his army here and instructed them to march overland in a show of force, while the rest of the troops continued eastwards by sea. Their rendezvous point was Surabaya, where the river, which provided the orientation for the land forces, entered the sea. The two armies joined up around the beginning of May, and the land party expressed surprise that they had met with so little resistance as they crossed a landscape already scarred by recent fighting. An explanation was soon forthcoming. A Javanese rebel had taken advantage of the turmoil caused by the Mongols' arrival and had overthrown and killed King Kertanagara. Kertanagara's son-in-Iaw, Prince Vijaya, was carrying on the struggle in the south of the country near present-day Kediri, which accounted for the absence of Javanese troops in the north. Hoping to use the Mongol army to help him crush the rebels, Prince Vijaya sent envoys to assure the invaders that he had already pledged the homage that his late father-in-Iaw had so steadfastly refused. The envoys also acquainted the Mongols with all the details they needed of the roads, rivers and resources of the country to enable them to march to Vijaya's assistance. Some rebel troops tried to stop them moving upstream from Surabaya, but were easily routed and fled into the interior. The Mongol army continued on its way upriver and fought a battle under the walls of Modjopait (Majapahit), the strongpoint (and future capital) where Vijaya was
holding out, and drove a further rebel army back into the jungle. Finally, the Mongols moved on to the rebels' base at the fortified town of Daha (modern Kediri) and destroyed the final opposition to Vijaya. This action is of some historical interest because the chronicle tells us that, in order to co-ordinate their attack, the separate Mongol and loyalist Javanese units agreed to commence battle when they heard the sound of the pao. This word was originally used to identify a catapult, and later a cannon, but its use here referring to a signalling device indicates that these would have been thunderclap bombs -explosive gunpowder devices cased in thick paper which acted like a maroon. The bombs were fitted with a time fuse, and one would probably have been flung up into the air from a traction trebuchet. Its loud bang would then have been the signal to advance. Prince Vijaya then took an enormous gamble. As his enemies were destroyed he no longer had need of a Mongol army to help him, and he was also very reluctant to reward them for their efforts. He therefore made up an excuse for having to return to his capital, and was escorted by a small detachment of Mongol soldiers. On the way back he repudiated his homage, slaughtered the guards, and moved into a hostile position against the Mongols. An army was quickly sent against him, which he successfully ambushed, causing the survivors to flee back towards the coast. Here the Mongols rapidly considered their position. They had been in Java for four months, and were already suffering from the equatorial heat, so, taking with them what prisoners and treasure they had gained, the fleet set sail for China and home. Three thousand Mongols perished in the Java expedition, and even the treasure, which included gold, silver and rhinoceros horn, was not sufficient to save the campaign commander from receiving 17 lashes and having one-third of his property confiscated. Edited by Snafu |
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Erdene
Samurai 
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 101 |
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Posted: 02-May-2006 at 15:05 |
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Interesting...thanks alot!!!!!!!!!
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Guests
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Posted: 03-May-2006 at 21:27 |
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hi erdenee ! en forum her baina daa hariu! mongoliin urs mash olon boltugai! |
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Seko
Emperor 
Spammer Joined: 01-Sep-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 8595 |
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Posted: 03-May-2006 at 22:38 |
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I guess its Mongolian. Mind telling us what you wrote in english?
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Seng-Kuo-Lin-Chin
Immortal Guard
Joined: 28-Apr-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 05-May-2006 at 01:30 |
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Thanks Snafu for the enlightening information! Where did you get that account of the Java expedition? Do you know of any good books on the Mongols, because I only have a couple right now...
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Snafu
Knight
Joined: 14-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 72 |
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Posted: 05-May-2006 at 04:32 |
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The best Mongol books are the ones that focus on specific campaigns. The best book I've seen about the Mongol invasions of Europe was "the Devil's Horsemen". There's a good book about the Mongol invasions of Japan called "Ghenko", "Turkestan down to the Mongol invasion" gives a lot of info about the middle eastern campaigns, and "The rise of Chingis Khan and his conquest of north China" details the early Chinese invasions. For general info you can also check out the Cambridge History of China volume 6: Alien regimes and border states. It focuses on the Liao, Jin, Hsi-Hsia, and Mongol empires. |
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Erdene
Samurai
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 101 |
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Posted: 07-May-2006 at 19:14 |
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Ene forum zugeer shu!!!! neleen heden Mongolchuud baidag yum bainlee...
Edited by Erdene |
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Erdene
Samurai
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 101 |
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Posted: 07-May-2006 at 19:23 |
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There is a book called Twentieth Century Mongolia by Baabar( Bat-Erdene Batbayar ) The White Horse Press, Knapwell, Cambridge. A Mongolian author writing our history......may be interesting for some.....our history from our prospective.
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Guests
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Posted: 08-May-2006 at 06:49 |
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2hon saya l gedeg. haa saigui bj bhiimdaa. end hujaa golognuud ordog uu?
sorry guyz. i will never write in mongolian again. |
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Erdene
Samurai
Joined: 23-Apr-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 101 |
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Posted: 10-May-2006 at 12:21 |
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Imperator Invictus
Caliph 
Retired AE Administrator Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3151 |
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Posted: 10-May-2006 at 12:24 |
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Please limit non-english conversations to PM or the "non-english" room. Thanks.
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Guests
Guest
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Posted: 12-May-2006 at 04:58 |
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hehe(in english)
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Medeej....they're everywhere....|
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