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Who are the Romans today?

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who are the Romans today?
    Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 06:12
3-500k Goths migrated and stayed in Italy in the 5th century.Isnt that a little excessive,what are your sources on this?
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 07:09

Originally posted by Catt

3-500k Goths migrated and stayed in Italy in the 5th century.Isnt that a little excessive,what are your sources on this?

I didn't say "they stayed" in Italy, I said they  migrated in. It's not a number I've found in any source, it's more an estimation of mine, based on the size of the Gothic armies and of the buildup of the Gothic power structure and society, as described in Byzantine sources.

Apparently the Gothic armies at their best numbered anything between 80 and 140K men in total, spreadout in the center and northern mostly part of Italy, but also in the south (in the southern cities we could mostly talk about Gothic garissons in the local cities, the garissons in the cities of the North were quite large and in Ravenna and Rome huge). Since all adult males of some social status became fighters in the Gothic society, it is safe to multiply these numbers by 4 to get the size of the total Gothic population (ie. for each adult male in "fighting" age, there were at least 3 non-adult and/or non-male and/or not eligible for fighting, persons). I even rounded down the numbers I got. And I think the numbers could be even larger, because not all Goths were supposed to fight.

Most of the Goths dispersed in the country after the Byzantines destroyed their power, and few fled the country. But most got asimilated into the local population. So did the large Lombardian (Longobardian) populations and several elements of other Germanic people (Franks, Vandals and many others). The demographic impact of those was quite more stunning than the (very small) demographic impact of, let's say, the Normas, who only settled in southern Italy as a strong ruling class (and lots of them got massacred anyway).

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 11:04

Well isnt that what migrate implies,it certainly does in this context? The Italic people didnt go anywhere.There were millions of them and it would take major,major migrations and influx to displace them and any populace. There are Lombards in the north, and mixing in some places which obviously has had an impact on culture but has the genetic structure of most on the peninsula been completey altered? I have nothing against your personal forumla,but i would like to see more conclusive evidence before we strip Italy of its ancestry in this thread.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 12:41
well, certainly norhtern Italy has a lot of non-italian blood, there were too many incursions from the north (especially Langobards) that changed the genetic pool considderably. the only other parts of Italy that are not over 90% italian are the islands of sicily and sardinia, but they're still much more italian than anything else.
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 15:17

Italians are Italians, of course. But claiming genetical purity is really a ludicrus thing to say. No pure blood exists throughout Europe. Only the Basques could claim that they got by 60 or 70% the same blood they had a thousand years ago - claiming 90% Italic for the Italians is definitely utterly unscientific.

Try 30-35% maybe even 40% at best - and that's a better percentage than many other European "nations" of today.

We are all mixtures... only the purists claim otherwise (and we all know "why").

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  Quote cattus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 16:57
nobody is claiming purity. The original Latins have probably long and well mixed into the population, but why could there not be many original ancient italians,neolithic even. It is not uncommon for families to live in the country side for centuries untouched.
These percentages you keep stating seem conjecture.
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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 18:15

Goths migrated to Italy en masse. Something between 300 and 500K of Goths migrated into Italy during the 5th century AD only. Along with a great number of Lombardians (those where many) Franks and various other Germanic people. Also, you can't underestimate the Gallic influece, and surely the Arabic mix in the southern Italy was huge. And large bodies of Greeks and many, many more people from all over the Roman empire, migrated in ITaly (especially in Rome, but not only) during the existence of the unified Imperium Romanum.

I don't believe you. The Goths were spread over France, and settled in SPAIN, how did they find time to settle 500,000 Goths in Italy? As for the Lombards, they were driven out by the Franks (who did NOT settle), and the Gauls, they were Romanized. The Arabs were massacred by the native population and by the Normans. THe Greeks, they didn't migrate to Rome, where the hell did you get that information?

 

I find the Italians a fascinating mix of people, and quite diverse too. In the North you find a lot of Germanic looking people, in the middle a mixture of typical mediteranean types and in Sicily you can find even demi-Semitic types... Fascinating.On a relevant note, I've read an article somewhere about a few villages in mountainous Sicily, who still speak a form of Greek... a language called "Graeco" I think, or something like that...  

How funny....Sine it's all incorrect.


Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 18:19
Originally posted by Imperatore Dario I

I don't believe you. The Goths were spread over France, and settled in SPAIN, how did they find time to settle 500,000 Goths in Italy?

The Visigots went through Italy and finally settled in Spain. The Ostrogoths arrived in Italy later. They took over power from Odoacer.

[quute]As for the Lombards, they were driven out by the Franks (who did NOT settle)[/quote]
Not really. The Lombards were conquered by the Franks, but they weren't driven out of Italy by them. Charlemagne got the title "King od the Franks and Lombards".
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 02:37

Imperatore,

You find yourself obliged to defend your genetical purity and I find that silly. Both the Goths and the Lombards (Longobards) devoted a huge part of the genetic make-up of the modern Italian population and no one in his right mind could disagree with that.

The Arabic and even more Greek influences and additions to the gene pool are rather obvious.

It is impressive what you can find on the Internet, if you are willing to devote a few minutes searching.

Here is the definition of the Griko language from Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_language

Here is more insight about the language and those who speak it

http://www.molossia.org/griko.html

And here is a rather interesting Italian site (you'll feel like home reading it) about the Greeks surviving even today in southern Italy and their language.

http://www.sternatia.com/grec%C3%ACa_e_griko.htm

This is a small passage from this site:

La Grecia Salentina e unisola linguistica, che si trova in provincia di Lecce, in una posizione centrale, equidistante dai due mari che bagnano la penisola del Salento, ed e costituita da 9 paesi: Melpignano, Castrignano dei Greci, Corigliano dOtranto, Martano Zollino, Soleto Sternatia, Martignano e Calimera.

In questarea e in uso un dialetto di origine greca il Griko o Grecanico che e ormai pressoche definitivamente scomparso a Melpignano e Soleto, mentre e parlato dalle persone piu anziane o soltanto compreso dai piu giovani negli altri comuni, specialmente a Sternatia.

(for those not speaking Italian, it says that the Greek dialect of Griko or Grecanico is being spoken in relatively isolated places in southern Italy and it mentions the names of 9 Griko-speaking villages)

You are either a very stubborn and nationalistic individual, or a very young (your rudeness complies to this) and immature one. If the case is the first and you claim purity for the Italian people, I don't have anything to say. If it's the latter, please take the time to read what others - who have studied more and know more - write and tell you about those things. There are no pure nations today, that's a huge fallacy. The Italian and the Balkan peninsula are probably the less homogenous areas throughout Europe, and the whole Europe is extremely non-homogenous anyway. We are all mixtures, genetically. I don't deny the continuation (legacy, if you wish) of the Roman culture to the current Italians, as I don't deny the legacy of the ancient Greeks to the modern Greeks. But it would be completely out of proportion to claim that genetically the modern Italians or Greeks are the same as their cultural ancestors.



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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 11:17
Originally posted by Imperatore Dario I

The Arabs were massacred by the native population and by the Normans.

 

no, it's rather the opposite. Muslim soldiers where highly regarded and formed the bodyguards of both Norman and German rulers of sicily.

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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 15:18
Originally posted by Romano Nero

Imperatore,

You find yourself obliged to defend your genetical purity and I find that silly. Both the Goths and the Lombards (Longobards) devoted a huge part of the genetic make-up of the modern Italian population and no one in his right mind could disagree with that.

Don't try to lie and twist things. In NO WAY, have I ever said that the Italians are genetically pure, I ask that you point out where I have said that. If you can't, then please refrain from making up such trash. The Goths yes, occupied Italy after the overthrow of Romulus Augustulus, however, there intermixing with the Roman population was insignificant as only Odoacer's Gothic army settled in Italy.

As for the Lombards, they totally assimilated into the Italian population, and according to Valerio Lintner (A Traveller's History of Italy): It is however important to note that we are here discussing an invasion of what was essentially a ruling elite. The majority of the population of Italy was and remained Roman in origin, and there was a limit to the extent to which the Lombards, or for that matter, any other invader, could change Italian ways: it was an evolutionary rather than a revolutionary set of influences.

The Arabic and even more Greek influences and additions to the gene pool are rather obvious.

It is impressive what you can find on the Internet, if you are willing to devote a few minutes searching.

It's amazing how someone can refer the Greeks as a seperate race from the Italians. They were basically of the same type of people, Romano. As for the Arabs, remember that 10,000 troops invaded Sicily, from 843-902. They couldn't even totally control the population until 902. Then, when the Normans occupied the island, not only did they bring large numbers of Italians from Naples, but the Arabs fled from Sicily as well.

Despite the good conditions offered by the Normans many Arabs emigrated respecting the obligation, provided for by their law, not to be able to live in a state dominated by an infidel.

Other Arabs, mainly merchants, progressively emigrated because the conditions of privilege that guaranteed lucrative business had come to a stop.

http://web.genie.it/utenti/i/inanna/livello2-i/mediterraneo- 3-i.htm

You're right, the internet is useful, especially when you uncover the truth.

And we all know about the Magnian Graecians that still live in Italy, and why was that even brought up? So Italy had a pre-Roman history, is it the end of the world?

You are either a very stubborn and nationalistic individual, or a very young (your rudeness complies to this) and immature one. If the case is the first and you claim purity for the Italian people, I don't have anything to say. If it's the latter, please take the time to read what others - who have studied more and know more - write and tell you about those things. There are no pure nations today, that's a huge fallacy. The Italian and the Balkan peninsula are probably the less homogenous areas throughout Europe, and the whole Europe is extremely non-homogenous anyway. We are all mixtures, genetically. I don't deny the continuation (legacy, if you wish) of the Roman culture to the current Italians, as I don't deny the legacy of the ancient Greeks to the modern Greeks. But it would be completely out of proportion to claim that genetically the modern Italians or Greeks are the same as their cultural ancestors

I wonder how many more people there are like you, that lie so much. Once again, you say that I claim genetic purity in Italians. Once again, I ask that you prove this, because I have said no such thing. Next, when have I ever claimed pure nations? I'm waiting. I have said that there hasn't been drastic changes in Italian genetics, which is absolutely true. On the very contrary, it is you that's making up false things, and still fails to back them up with any credible sources. I don't like those kinds of people, because even though I know you're totally rediculous, I always manage to fall into a stupid trap like this, and force myself to prove the other wrong.


Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
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  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 20:35
Gentleman, there are ways to disagree with each other and to debate issues without calling each other liars.   Let's try to keep things civil.
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Nov-2004 at 23:58

As far as I am concerned, I didn't call anyone a liar. I could call a particular individual "a spoiled brat", in dire need of some manners, but I didn't.

Case closed, there is no use argueing with those who have walled ears. Moving on.

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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2004 at 13:38
Originally posted by Romano Nero

As far as I am concerned, I didn't call anyone a liar. I could call a particular individual "a spoiled brat", in dire need of some manners, but I didn't.

Case closed, there is no use argueing with those who have walled ears. Moving on.

Oh please, fine, whatever. But you have still failed to prove your point.


Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
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  Quote Praetorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 20:43

OK well this what I have to say . I am descendents of the Romans, the family name goes back to Roma in 150 B.C.  



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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Dec-2004 at 21:55

The invasions of the Longobards had a more permanent effect than previous barbaric invasions. Claims of assimilation of invaders by Italians in the peninsular is very hard to claim. The reason is the depopulation of Italy during the Ostrogothic-Eastern Roman wars. From top to the bottom of the peninsula, it was utterly devastated. The population lacked the will to resist the invaders. I'd say the invaders brought a fresh influx of settlers. Dario is right in saying that the Longobards were small in numbers, but I disagree that they were assimilated. In terms of language, yes, but in everything else, it was the reverse. Until the 19th century, the Italians of the peninsular defined themselves by their religion and city-state rather than nationalist polity or identity. The region of Lombardy and the defunct province of Longobardia (now Apulia) suggests that the populace in those regions thought of themselves as Longobards first and foremost rather than as Italians. Its a case of a very strong minority imposing its will. Just look at the Franks, the Romans there eventually assimilated with the ruling class and thought of themselves as Franks, not Romans.

 

 

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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Dec-2004 at 17:16

Originally posted by paramerion

 Dario is right in saying that the Longobards were small in numbers, but I disagree that they were assimilated. In terms of language, yes, but in everything else, it was the reverse. Until the 19th century, the Italians of the peninsular defined themselves by their religion and city-state rather than nationalist polity or identity. The region of Lombardy and the defunct province of Longobardia (now Apulia) suggests that the populace in those regions thought of themselves as Longobards first and foremost rather than as Italians. Its a case of a very strong minority imposing its will. Just look at the Franks, the Romans there eventually assimilated with the ruling class and thought of themselves as Franks, not Romans

You've missed something. I haven't said that the Lombards considered themselves Italians, I said they were assimilated, which is true. The term "Lombard" thereafter became associated with the Duchy centered in Milan. Just like in Venice, the population considered themselves Venetian, but we consider them Italians today. There's a difference with the Frankish assimilation and the Langobard assimilation.


Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
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  Quote Serge L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 14:20

Who are the Romans today? Well, the obvious answer is: the c.a 2800000 inhabitants of a city that still exists and is the capital of the Republic of Italy

Who are the descendents of ancient Romans? hard to say, it mostly depends from what you mean with "ancient Romans". If they are just the inhabitants of Republican Rome, they are not very much, as IV mentioned (even if his 2% estimate is probably pessimistic). If they are all the citizens of the empire, the likely answer is that most Europeans and European descendents in the Americas, Oceania and other continents have some Roman ancestor.

Originally posted by Imperatore Dario I

There was never a Roman race.

Actually, there is not nor ever been any human race at all -- strictly speaking, the human phenotypes vary clinally, i.e. continuously, because of continuous intermix between each and any people and its neighbors. Moreover, clines are different for different genes and characters

As evidence of that, you can consider these famous genetic maps by Cavalli-Sforza:

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/pc1.jpg

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/pc2.jpg

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/pc3.jpg

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/pc4.jpg

http://www.angeltowns.com/members/racialreal/pc5.jpg 

As you can see, national borders are ignored by clines, and Italy is no exception on this regard.

However, if you consider the popular, empirical concept of "race", we can say that Romans and their neighbors Italici (Oscans, Umbrians, Apulians, etc.), approx. located in the center-South of modern Italy, were quite uniform in languages (practically, several dialects of the same tongue), and physical appearance.

Moreover, some studies tend to show that ancient Italics were not substantially different from the contemporary inhabitants of those same areas.

As evidence , please read this paragraphs from C.S.Coon the races of Europe about ancient Romans and modern Italians.

This work is rather old -- yet it's difficult to find so precise and zealous anthropometric studies nowadays.

<to be continued later, I need to cook some fish for dinner now>

 

[edited to fix links]



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  Quote Serge L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 15:08

Originally posted by Romano Nero

Roman culture was dilluted all over, and became one of the most widely accepted western cultures of all times (the Greek, English and American should be the other contestants for that prize).

 

Allow me to add the French to the list. For all the period between approx 1400 CE to 1900 the French exerted a very relevant to Europe and al the world. Some examples

  • French language was the international common language after Latin and before English. German and Russian aristocracy commonly used French instead their local tongues. Even now, the official languages of diplomacy and even postal services is French
  • The French revolution's ideas of Freedom, Equality and Fraternity inspired many events in Europe and in the Americas
  • French people invented the metric system, which is now the basis of the Sistme Internationale of measure units.
  • Paris was the main center of culture in Europe (and it's still Europe's biggest city)

The period of French Greatness largely overlaps with England's/Britain's one -- yet that does not mean that each of them is to be neglected.

Actually, England and France were, for long, the two super-powers in a cold war that in part anticipated the USA-USSR confrontation.

Riks,

as an Italian living in Italy, I can confirm you, in Italy you can find many different phenotypes, so that people coming from Russia, Poland, Latvia, Romania, Tunisia, Iran, Venezuela can be mistaken for Italians.

That's valid in particular in the proximity of big cities, like Rome, that are century old melting pots.

Sorry I cannot se that photo, unfortunately the system mistook part of the address as a smiley, and hence it's not possible to use that link.

Please try to correct the problem.

 

 

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  Quote Praetorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Dec-2004 at 19:07

Well I was born in Puerto Rico and I am Roman descendent, the family name goes back to Roma in 150 B.C.  


 

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