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Persian Hero, Unknown Martyr

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    Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 14:24
Iran was never again a world power in the league that the Sassaniads or the  Achaemenid  empire. The Safavids were local regional powers, annoying to the Ottomons, and everyone else burt hardly the glory of Cyrus.
 
My Grand Mother family was from Isfahan and her family has a tradition that it served every Iranian King since Cyrus. So well I really do have a soft spot for Iran, as do most Pakistanis, but well facts are facts.
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 16:04

There were no world powers then (16th, 17th even 18th centuries)... only supra regional powers (except maybe spain and portugal).

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  Quote Shapur II Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 18:11
Originally posted by Sparten

Iran was never again a world power in the league that the Sassaniads or the  Achaemenid  empire. The Safavids were local regional powers, annoying to the Ottomons, and everyone else burt hardly the glory of Cyrus.




actually, iran was the only power that could defeat the ottomans when the europeans couldnt.

also, if i remember correctly, iran defeated england, russia, and portugal in battle too....


Edited by Shapur II - 06-Aug-2006 at 18:12
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Aug-2006 at 21:00
Yes, we did, but only a few times and with help another europeans. Shah Abbas and Agha mohammad khan have defeated Russians. Without Englands navy we never could defeat Portugal.
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  Quote Nestorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 07:20

I wonder what ave1 thinks about underground movement of Iranians converting out of islam, would they be considered "murtad". And, wouldn't an iranan converting out of Islam to Zoroastarianism be reverting to his/her country's original religion?

Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
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  Quote Conservative Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 17:43
Originally posted by Nestorian

I wonder what ave1 thinks about underground movement of Iranians converting out of islam, would they be considered "murtad". And, wouldn't an iranan converting out of Islam to Zoroastarianism be reverting to his/her country's original religion?

 
Care to elaborate more on this "underground movement".
 
If by being a confused young Persian and getting a tattoo or chain of Ahura Mazda symbol makes one a Zoroastrian then good luck to the new religion of neo-Zoroastrianism.
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  Quote Conservative Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 17:55
Originally posted by Sparten

Iran was never again a world power in the league that the Sassaniads or the  Achaemenid  empire. The Safavids were local regional powers, annoying to the Ottomons, and everyone else burt hardly the glory of Cyrus.
 
True. The Safavids were hardly in the same league as the Achaemenids or Sassanids but you're dead wrong about Iran never being a World power since those times. Iran under Nader Shah Afshar was THE major power in Asia and the Safavids, Zands and Qajars too were powers in their own right. That is why Iran was never colonized by any of the colonial powers.
 
My Grand Mother family was from Isfahan and her family has a tradition that it served every Iranian King since Cyrus. So well I really do have a soft spot for Iran, as do most Pakistanis, but well facts are facts.
 
 
Confused
 
That's an unbelievably far-fetched story and sounds more like a Hendi custom, not something Iranians do LOL
 
An 'Esfahani' family that served every Iranian King since Cyrus?? LOLLOLLOLLOL
 
Sorry i couldnt resist,
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 18:41
Originally posted by Conservative

That's an unbelievably far-fetched story and sounds more like a Hendi custom, not something Iranians do LOL
 
An 'Esfahani' family that served every Iranian King since Cyrus?? LOLLOLLOLLOL
Its was a family tradition. Not the most reliable sources are they. And oh I did not know that you were the man who certified whether something was Iranian or not?
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 18:52
Originally posted by Conservative

True. The Safavids were hardly in the same league as the Achaemenids or Sassanids but you're dead wrong about Iran never being a World power since those times. Iran under Nader Shah Afshar was THE major power in Asia and the Safavids, Zands and Qajars too were powers in their own right. That is why Iran was never colonized by any of the colonial powers.
Iran was a regional power. As it is today. Safavids and Nadir Shah were never powers in Euope or Africa (as Achamenids and the Sassanids were) or anywhere outside the middle east and C Asia.
 
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  Quote Conservative Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Aug-2008 at 22:53
Originally posted by Sparten

Iran was a regional power. As it is today. Safavids and Nadir Shah were never powers in Euope or Africa (as Achamenids and the Sassanids were) or anywhere outside the middle east and C Asia.
 
Just a 'regional power'? No.
 
Iran's power under Nader Shah extended over 3 different regions, West Asia, Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent, and was a threat to Russia.
 
You say that Nader Shah wasnt a power outside of the Middle East or Central Asia yet Nader Shah's power also extended into the Caucasus and into the subcontinent. You are no doubt aware that Nader Shah's army swatted the people of modern-day Punjab-Pakistan like they were flies before making short work of the main and overwhelmingly larger imperial Mughal army on the outskirts of Delhi. So his power obviously was not limited to just the M.E or C.A


Edited by Conservative - 07-Aug-2008 at 22:54
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 06:17
Tell me what operations the Iranian army carried out in the Americas and I'll accept it was a world power.
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  Quote Bankotsu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2008 at 06:29
Ah, Nader Shah, the last great asian conqueror.

They should make a film of him.

Nader Shah's Persian empire:



http://iranpoliticsclub.net/maps/maps08/index.htm


Edited by Bankotsu - 08-Aug-2008 at 06:36
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  Quote Conservative Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 10:59
Originally posted by Sparten

Tell me what operations the Iranian army carried out in the Americas and I'll accept it was a world power.
 
Its irrelevant to me what your opinion about Iran being a World power is. You claimed that Iran was only a 'regional power' and had no power outside of the Middle East or Central Asia under Nader Shah, i rebuked that. The best example being Nader Shah's humiliation of the Mughals and seizure of Delhi.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 07:16

It is also irrelevant to me what you think. In Nadir Shah's time, the powers were France and the Kingdom of Great Britain and Spain. Iran was a major regional power, the dominant one in its area true, but not a world power. And facts do not change because some guy with "Iran Zameen" written as his banner thinks otherwise.

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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 13:15
Originally posted by Conservative

Its irrelevant to me what your opinion about Iran being a World power is. You claimed that Iran was only a 'regional power' and had no power outside of the Middle East or Central Asia under Nader Shah, i rebuked that. The best example being Nader Shah's humiliation of the Mughals and seizure of Delhi.


You didn't rebuke it, in fact everything you argued against Sparten with only proved his point; Iran under Nader Shah was a regional power that could only assert its influence in neighbouring regions like India, the Middle East and Central Asia. They weren't in the New World, not in Africa or east Asia, and not in Europe. The world powers of Nader Shah's time made their influence felt in all these regions.

That's not to say Nader Shah wasn't a great leader or that Iran wasn't influential, and I'd say there is no need to inflate it; it was impressive enough as it was.
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  Quote Conservative Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 17:42
The Middle East, Central Asia, the Caucasus and the Indian subcontinent are all different 'regions'.
 
But i dont know, maybe in Pakistan they teach you that Daghestan and Delhi are apart of the same "region". LOL
 
Reginmund - If defining World powers depends upon what Westerners consider to be the benchmark then sure, Iran has not been a naval power at any time in the past 2000 years or so, and so has not been a 'World power' like the Spanish, English etc. But on land, definitely Nader Shah's Iran was one of the major World powers of the time. Trying to condense his military achievements into what you consider to be a "region" is just ignorance about the lands within this non-existent "region" you're trying to place him.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 19:37
Actually they do teach us that, its called "Asia". Though of course Dagestan is near the boundries of Europe.
 
You would do well to decipher what a world power means, the ability to project power over different continents. The timeline you are talking about, the British fought wars in Europe, N and S American, India and SE Asia.
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Aug-2008 at 20:21
Originally posted by Conservative

Reginmund - If defining World powers depends upon what Westerners consider to be the benchmark then sure, Iran has not been a naval power at any time in the past 2000 years or so, and so has not been a 'World power' like the Spanish, English etc. But on land, definitely Nader Shah's Iran was one of the major World powers of the time. Trying to condense his military achievements into what you consider to be a "region" is just ignorance about the lands within this non-existent "region" you're trying to place him.


I think we simply misunderstand each other because we see different meanings in the terms "world power" and "regional power". When I say world power, I mean a power that influences "all" the world politically, when I say regional power, I mean a power that influences the neighbouring regions politically. You however, seem to operate with the terms as if being a world power is qualitatively superior to being a regional power, so that Iran as a regional power becomes inferior to f.ex. Britain because it was a world power. This is not how I see it, in fact I would say that a world power is not necessarily more powerful than a regional power, being a world power just means that the political influence is mainly felt in dispersed areas all over the world, as opposed to locally. One could perhaps argue that Iran was a greater regional power than f.ex. Britain, while Britain was the greater world power.

These terms must be treated as analytical concepts and nothing more, they're not prizes we stick on nations to increase their prestige.
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  Quote Conservative Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 23:23
Originally posted by Sparten

Actually they do teach us that, its called "Asia". Though of course Dagestan is near the boundries of Europe.
 
Yeah i suspected there was something flawed in your education system. Dagestan IS in Europe, not Asia. LOL
 
And Asia is not a "region". It is a continent, which has many different regions within it.
 
You would do well to decipher what a world power means, the ability to project power over different continents. The timeline you are talking about, the British fought wars in Europe, N and S American, India and SE Asia.
 
And Nader Shah fought wars in............. Im repeating myself and this is going in circles. See my earlier posts.
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  Quote Conservative Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2008 at 23:24
Originally posted by Reginmund

These terms must be treated as analytical concepts and nothing more, they're not prizes we stick on nations to increase their prestige.
 
True. I agree with what you said.
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