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QueenCleopatra
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Topic: Rasputin: Russia's Mad Monk Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 09:44 |
Ok I don't know if this belongs here but anyhoo this is where its goin for now. No one seems to be talking about Russian History anywhere and because its a pet subject of mine I thought I'd start a thread.
Historians it seems are forever debating the question ; Who killed Gregori Rasputin and why ? I'd be interested to hear peoples responses because I did research on this for my Final Exams in secondry school and it would be interesting to see if my conclusions are shared by other members
So to begin with heres the accepted version of events as told in the memoirs of Felix Yusupov and Vladimir Purishkevic 2 of the conspirators involved.:
On the night of December 30th 1916 Yusupov invited Rasputin to his home, the Yusupov Palace, for tea. When Rasputin arrived Yusupov lead him to the dining room where on the table were laid Wine and Teackes laced with Cyanide by fellow conspirator Dr.Lazovert. He and the other conspirators were waiiting upstairs in what is now called the Conspirators room.
Yusupov had Rasputin sit down and offered him the teacakes and poured him some wine. As the Monk began to eat Yusupov watched hopefully " expecting every moment to be his last" . But the pioson didn't seem to be working. Frightened by Rasputins apparently otherworldy powers the Prince ran upstairs to his fellow conspirators to inform them of the problem whereupon he was handed or took a gun. He returned to the dining room and shot Rasputin in the stomach. He then reported to his fellows that the job was done. However when questioned by Purishkevic as to whether the Monk was actually dead,he was"seized by a sudden feeling of alarm" and immeadiatly went to check. As he was leaning over to checked Rasputin suddendly awakened and attempted to strangle the Prince. Yusupov called on Purishkevich for help.
The accounts both claim here that Rasputin made a run for it out the door and accross the yard and was shot in the back from a distance by Purishkevic. Some accounts ( though not those mentioned above) would also suggest he was betean at this piont. Then his body was dumped in the River Nevka where eventually died of drowning.
That is the version we have accepted as fact. And I don't deny that some parts of it are totally accurate. However my research has lead me to believe that we are not being told the whole correct story.
Here are my arguments :
1.) The shot to Rasputins back: Purishkevic claims to have shot the Monk from a distance accross the yard. However autopsy photos show burning and scorching around the would that could only have happened if the gun was close to his skin. So Pruishkevic would have had to have been standing right behind the Monk, possibly as he was throttling Yusupov, when he fired.
2.) The escape accross the yard: If events happened as above then Raspuitn would have been too badly hurt to make a dash accross the yard. And in those same autopsy pictures there is , clearly visbale, a long straight line of blood accross the yard. A person running would have left blood everywhere. So I believe that the Monk was in fact carried.
3.) The third bullet wound: So if events were altered in the Conspirators memoirs I asked myself what they were trying to hide. A clue is yet again in those pictures. Right in the middle of Rasputin's forhead is a THIRD bullet hole. Measurements showed it was a differnt size and calibre to the other two.So the only explanation is that there was a THIRD gunman involved. Yet neither Yusupov nor Purishkevic mention anything of the sort in their memoirs. So who were they trying to protect? Who else could have been involved ? And why ?
I discovered that after the murder it was rumoured that the British Secret Service who had a base in St.Petersburg were involved. There is a mention in Yusupovs memoirs of his English friend Oswald Raynor who worked for the. Coincidence ? No. When Raynor died it was stated in his Obituary that he was in the Yusupov Palace on the night of the murder. Furthermore according to his nephew Gregory he burned all his papers from his time in St.Petersburg. Why ? What was he hiding?
Then I found out that a Telegram had recently come to light from a Secret Service Agent to his superoir officer John Scale in which he mentions Raynor in connection with " The demise of dark forces" the Secret Service's code for the Murder of Rasputin. My final confirmation came when I saw a documentry on this in which Scale's daughter states categorically that her father was " with ones who planned the murder"
So my theory is this:
Everything happened as stated up until the shooting by Purishkevic. I believe that he in fact shot the Monk at close range probably in the Dining Room. The Conspirators then began carrying the body accross the yard to a waiting car. Howver at some piont he must have moved or made a sound and they realised he was still alive. Then I believe Oswald Raynor, working for the Secret Service, took out his gun and fired the final fatal shot to Rasputin's head. Then they drove to a bridge over the Nevka and dumped the body.
But of course that begs the question; Why would the British want Rasptuin dead ? What would they have to gain?
The answer I believe lies with the influence Rasptuin had over the Royal Family. He had been openly pushing for the Russian Army to pull out of WW1 to prevent " The terrible slaughter of innocent lives". The Tsar, the British knew, was likely ot take the Monk's advice since he trusted him above all others and had done so in the past.This would spell disaster for the British who would be losing their greatest ally. It would mean that the German Forces who where currently fighting on two fronts would be able to concentrate all their might on the Western Front and the War would be lost for sure. So the only way they could see of preventing this was to get rid of Rasputin.
Wow that forever to write!
Anyway there's my interpreation of what occured and why based on the evidence. I'd love some opinions or other suggestions!
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Renegade
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Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 21:06 |
Can I see the sources where you got your info?
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Paul
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Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 21:55 |
The theory comes from a TimeWatch (BBC TV) Documentary which blamed the British secret service for the killing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2004/ 09_september/19/rasputin.shtml
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Loknar
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Posted: 20-Apr-2006 at 23:32 |
But I also heard that rasputin had water in his lungs whihc suggests he inhaled water. can this be done if you are dead?
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QueenCleopatra
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Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 03:37 |
No of course not! In order for water to get inot the lungs you'd have to breath it in. He couldn't very well do that when he was already dead now could he ?
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Loknar
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Posted: 21-Apr-2006 at 16:26 |
No but you said they dumped his body in the river after the guy blew his head off. If he was shot in the head, I dont know if he was really dead when they dumped his body in the river.
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QueenCleopatra
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Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 10:55 |
If he was shot in the head, I dont know if he was really dead when they dumped his body in the river. [quote]
He was shot straight through the head! The chances of him surviving are nil.
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Her Royal Highness , lady of the Two Lands, High Priestess of Thebes, Beloved of Isis , Cleopatra , Oueen of the Nile
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 11:45 |
He was supposedly given enough cyanide to kill an elephant at the house.
This was definitely not the first attempt to kill him, either. In 1914
a Siberian woman who had no nose attacked him at the instigation of the
clergy. She succeeded in ripping his intestines so that they were
actually outside his body, and yet he survived that........
Edited by Constantine XI
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QueenCleopatra
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Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 12:55 |
Thats not unusal though. You hear of babies being born with their intestines on the outside ( can't remember the name of the condition now) and surviving.
However to surivive a bullet through the brain would be unlikely. The bullet went through is head at close range. He couldn't have lived.
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R_AK47
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Posted: 25-Apr-2006 at 23:51 |
Where was Rasputin eventually buried and is he still there?
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QueenCleopatra
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Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 09:11 |
He was given a private burial by the Royal Family with only them in attendance. As far as I know he was buried on land belonging to the family but I'm sure where. However i am sure he's still there because only the royals knew where he was if ever they needed to exhume him.
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Loknar
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Posted: 30-Apr-2006 at 23:22 |
How else did he have water in his lungs? If a bullet killed him he would not have been able to inhale anything.
What I am getting at...perhaps the bullet did not kill him. I saw the photo, he had a hole right in his forehead...
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Quetzalcoatl
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Posted: 01-May-2006 at 06:14 |
Originally posted by Loknar
How else did he have water in his lungs? If a bullet killed him he would not have been able to inhale anything.
What I am getting at...perhaps the bullet did not kill him. I saw the photo, he had a hole right in his forehead...
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Rasputin could cause celestial bodies to fall from the sky, yet a bullet slayed. I'm joking, the man was a lunatic.
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ulrich von hutten
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Posted: 01-May-2006 at 07:01 |
boney m. on of the most popular retort bands in germany in 70th and 80th with it's wonderfull song :
Rasputin
Hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey (4x)
There lived a certain man in Russia long ago He was big and strong, in his eyes a flaming glow Most people looked at him with terror and with fear But to Moscow chicks he was such a lovely dear He could preach the bible like a preacher Full of ecstasy and fire But he also was the kind of teacher Women would desire
{Refrain} Ra Ra Rasputin, lover of the Russian queen There was a cat that really was gone Ra Ra Rasputin, Russia's greatest love machine It was a shame how he carried on
He ruled the Russian land and never mind the Czar But the kasachok he danced really wunderbar In all affairs of state he was the man to please But he was real great when he had a girl to squeeze For the queen he was no wheeler dealer Though she'd heard the things he'd done She believed he was a holy healer Who would heal her son
{Refrain}
{Spoken} But when his drinking and lusting and his hunger for power became known to more and more people, the demands to do something about this outrageous man became louder and louder.
Hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey (4x)
"This man's just got to go," declared his enemies But the ladies begged, "Don't you try to do it, please" No doubt this Rasputin had lots of hidden charms Though he was a brute they just fell into his arms Then one night some men of higher standing Set a trap, they're not to blame "Come to visit us," they kept demanding And he really came
{As Refrain} Ra Ra Rasputin, lover of the Russian queen They put some poison into his wine Ra Ra Rasputin, Russia's greatest love machine He drank it all and said "I feel fine"
Ra Ra Rasputin, lover of the Russian queen They didn't quit, they wanted his head Ra Ra Rasputin, Russia's greatest love machine And so they shot him till he was dead
{Spoken} Oh, those Russians...
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Lord Ranulf
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Posted: 01-May-2006 at 15:10 |
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Maljkovic
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 12:53 |
You can survive a shot to the head. I know a man who shot himslef in the forehead while playing russian rulette and survived w/o consequences.
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R_AK47
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Posted: 06-May-2006 at 21:32 |
Maljkovic is correct. It is possible for a human to survive a gunshot to the head, at least for a short time.
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Maljkovic
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Posted: 07-May-2006 at 06:37 |
Not just a short time. The guy I was talking about is still alive today, even though he shot himself more then ten years ago.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 10-Dec-2012 at 08:17 |
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Mountain Man
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Posted: 10-Dec-2012 at 11:11 |
Did he actually have "water in his lungs"?
Two distinct possibilities here:
1. The least likely is that the shock of being shot in the back caused him to aspirate some of the wine he was drinking. This would have conveniently left him with an autopsy finding of "fluid found in the lungs".
2. Far more likely: Given the likelihood of a conspiracy to murder Rasputin, what are the odds that the autopsy result would show (a) "died of numerous gunshots", requiring a Royal investigation and some high-ranking executions, or (b) "drowned", especially if he had some "fluid in his lungs", which BTW, is often pink and frothy caused by pulmonary edema and can look a lot like "drowning" in a heavy drinker.
I'm thinking 2(b).
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