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Topic ClosedEpirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?

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RomiosArktos View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?
    Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 17:57
Originally posted by Skanderbeg

All this sounds tooooooooo greek to me...

For greeks everything else is greek. Why are greeks so fixed with "making" everything greek???????

Perhaps if some of the ancient writers wrote about AMerica than greeks would say that Greeks were there too and that Indian tribes are greek too!!



You are showing your ignorance now!!!
There are theories() here in Greece according to which the native tribes of the Americas like the Navaho for example were in fact Greeks.The name comes from the Greek word navayos which means castaway!You should have known that before talking about the Epirotans!


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 18:02
The Epirotan noblemen just like the Macedonians participated in the olympic games,unlike the Illyrians who were never invited to participate.This shows that the Epirotans were Greeks.

Edited by RomiosArktos
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 04:18
Hmm, i think though I posted information from an American historian. Haven't seen any posts where someone called Pappadopoulos (or any Greek surname) states that Epirotans were Greeks.

I know that Albanians believes Epirotans were Illyrians. However, Albanians say the Etruscs were Illyrian (without even knowing what defines the Etruscan tribe) and some other extremists believe that Italians (even Sisely) was Illyrian. I'm sure that the northern parts of Epirus had Illyrian minorities but that doesn't make Epirotans Illyrian.

You will hear similar things from Greek scientologists but in the same way you should ignore their wacky theories, you should ignore Albanian extremists claiming every single part of europe.

As for the Navajo thing, yes the word makes sence and I've read that the natives of Peru and Bolivia use the same greek words like "poa", "panida" etc. However, I don't believe these things. It's a damn coinsidence yeah but many of those theories are based in the story of Atlantis or Scientology. I think everyone on this forum can live without it. Let's make discussions based on respectful scientific sources, from people that have devoted their lives in history.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 05:18
Just like Macedonia, Epirus was inhabited by several tribes; some of them were Greek beyond any doubt.
Molossians, Selloi, Hellenes, Grakoi, ... were Greek.

Now, was ANY of non-Greek tribes ever lived in Epirus called by ANYONE as (ethnic) Epirotan ?

If yes, then we shall consider the term Epirotan as geographic, if not then Epirotans were Greek.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-May-2006 at 06:40

Well done Istor!

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 08:35
Well this looks a bit confusing. I dont'believe Epirotes were albanians, and I dont'believe illyrians were albanians. Albanians hereditated much of their today culture from some tribes of the two mentioned areas (illyria and epirus). Regarding Epirus, i believe it was a geographical area inhabitated by various tribes. Some of the tribes showed more similarities to the hellenic words, some other could have illyrian elements in their culture. The Mollosian and the Chaonian tribe name could be explained by modern albanian Moll - apple and Ka - bull, but this is just a theory.
The dividing line between the Gheg (northern albanian) dialect and the Tosk (southern albanian) falls exactly where Illyria bordered ancient Epirus. That line follows the Roman Via Egnatia (name related to alb.E gjata-the long) or the Shkumbini (lat.Scampinus from alb. shkmb - rock) river. The differences between the dialects are not very strong, but still it is curious the fact that they border in the same place where Illyria bordered Epirus. Probably this reflects something.
Anyway, dont want to hurt nobodys nationalistic feelings
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 10:47
I agree with you Arber that Epirus was a geographic term just like Macedonia or Ionia.

Molossians were a Greek tribe, I don't doubt about it. To explain ancient peoples' names with modern words-languages is wrong.

Egnatius was a Roman co-emperor or something: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnaeus_Egnatius
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Egnatia

Maybe it reflects the northest limit of Greek Language expantion.  :)  I refer to Jirecek line.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 11:33
I dont believe Jirecek was alive in the times of Illyria and EpirusBig smileBig smile
Just kidding
 
Now more seriously, I have to say that from the illyrian language all that is left are some few words, and most of them are onomastic, toponimic etc. So maybe the tribes name can be explained from the modern language, that should be deriving from the old one. As you probably know the faith of the antic illyrians was similar to that of the hellenes, thracians, celts or romans, which means politheistic and pagan european. That religion was very naturalistic, there was a god linked to almost every natural phenomena. So when we consider this fact we can think that it might be possible for them to name themselves after the names of some "totems". Another tribe I would like to mention are the Encheleas. They were also living in what now can be called southern albania or northern epirus, or epirus. Their name is related to the albanian Ngjal - eel (also the english eel has the same indoeuropean root). The first known king of the Encheleas (Or Enchelei, Enkelei, Enhelei etc) was Bardulis (Bardhyli), who fought the macedonian king Philip. Its name in albanian should mean white star (Bardh - white + Ylli - star).
But with this I am not proving that epirotans were albanian or illyrian or greek. Some of the Epeirus tribes certainly were near the illyrian culture...
And another last thing, linguists and historians should study a bit more the links between albanian and greek (including archaic greek). Myself I found in the greek mythologic names and in the historic words some coincidences with albanian language. Probably this languages that lived close to each other for millenia share some common cultural ancestor, which could be closer than the proto-indo-european. The illyrians called themselves Iliri, and i heard the modern greeks calling themselves hellenes pronunciating it ilini. Now between iliri and ilini the difference u can find is only the r - n rotacism, that is commonly found in albanian between Tosk and Geg dialects. Can it be just a coincidence?I believe that these cultures (greek and albanian) could have been close to each other, if it was not for the religion (which came from the middle east...!)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 13:00
Originally posted by Arbr Z

The illyrians called themselves Iliri, and i heard the modern greeks calling themselves hellenes pronunciating it ilini. Now between iliri and ilini the difference u can find is only the r - n rotacism, that is commonly found in albanian between Tosk and Geg dialects. Can it be just a coincidence?


Big smileBig smile Interesting etymological analysis.! Big smile Big smile

Modern Greeks pronounce "Elines".

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 14:17
I think that Illyrians and Hellenes are tottaly diffrent terms not only as syntactic  but also and phonetically. Except that both tribes spoken diffrent languages. Of course  Epirotans and Macedonians had big influnce from them because were between the edycational Greeks and the barbarians neighboors. The latters of course have strong influence and from the Thracians specially after the Odrysian era.
Arber you are right as about the geographical meaning. As Istor said Hellas, Macedonia, Crete, Ionia, Epirus e.t.c. have only geographical meaning and not  the ethnological meaning of the present era.


Edited by akritas - 30-May-2006 at 14:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 18:56
Originally posted by Arbλr Z

Regarding Epirus, i believe it was a geographical area inhabitated by various tribes. Some of the tribes showed more similarities to the hellenic words, some other could have illyrian elements in their culture.
 
 
That's right! But in Epirus there were not tribes who had some similarities with the greek or the illyrian culture. Epirus was inhabited by greeks (mostly), illyrians and other tribes.
 
Originally posted by Arbλr Z

The Mollosian and the Chaonian tribe name could be explained by modern albanian Mollλ - apple and Ka - bull, but this is just a theory.
 
What is common between "Mollosian" and "Mollλ - apple"? Confused
 
Originally posted by Arbλr Z

The dividing line between the Gheg (northern albanian) dialect and the Tosk (southern albanian) falls exactly where Illyria bordered ancient Epirus. That line follows the Roman Via Egnatia (name related to alb.E gjata-the long) or the Shkumbini (lat.Scampinus from alb. shkλmb - rock) river. The differences between the dialects are not very strong, but still it is curious the fact that they border in the same place where Illyria bordered Epirus. Probably this reflects something.
 
I think that Ghegs and Tosks have differences in terms of their phenotype too. Especially the Tosks are close to Greeks.
 
Originally posted by Arbλr Z

Anyway, dont want to hurt nobodys nationalistic feelings.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-May-2006 at 19:27
By the way, the pronounciation of our name "Hellenes", is "Ellines" (since the ancient times) as Digenis said and not "Ilini" (I've never heared it before).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 06:19
Originally posted by dorian

 
Especially the Tosks are close to Greeks.
 
 
accurately SmileClap, Today 1/3 (30%) of greeks has Albanian bloods (Arvanitet, Albanian Chams, Albanian Labs) if you going in Chameria, Pelopenezia you can see there Albanians faces (Greekeziadet Albanians by force)
 
dorian you must ask to your grandefather if you are albanian descend (if you are little lighter that your compatriot) Smile



Edited by GoldenBlood - 31-May-2006 at 06:20
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 07:50
When Dorian speak for similarities he doesn't mean anthropological or genetical events but for culrural thinks.
Where do you know that the 1/3 of the Greek population has Albanian blood ? You mention the arvanites when is known that either spoke a close relative language never accepted that have Albanian origin. Actually when said to theirs that are albanians is an insult for them!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 07:57
Originally posted by GoldenBlood

accurately SmileClap, Today 1/3 (30%) of greeks has Albanian bloods (Arvanitet, Albanian Chams, Albanian Labs) if
 
Actually I think Dorian's comment was meant the other way round LOL
 
Originally posted by GoldenBlood

dorian you must ask to your grandefather if you are albanian descend (if you are little lighter that your compatriot) Smile
 
 
Please refrain from using stupid personal remarks that can be taken as an insult. It doesn't add to your argumentation, on the contrary you'll receive replies with similar context.


Edited by Yiannis - 31-May-2006 at 07:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 09:43
Originally posted by GoldenBlood

 
accurately SmileClap, Today 1/3 (30%) of greeks has Albanian bloods (Arvanitet, Albanian Chams, Albanian Labs) if you going in Chameria, Pelopenezia you can see there Albanians faces (Greekeziadet Albanians by force)
 
dorian you must ask to your grandefather if you are albanian descend (if you are little lighter that your compatriot) Smile

 
Mr...Golden Blood,
 
1. your nickname shows how a racist you are
 
2. Albanian Chams are Albanians and not Greeks
 
3. Arvanites are not Albanians (if you say it to an Arvanite he'll got angry because this is one of the biggest frauds which unfortunately is very popular in Greece too)
 
4. geneological studies indicate that the greek people is pure
 
5. lay off my grandfather and go to find your roots
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 10:45

Apparently this issue, regarding the epirotes, is still very fragile and it seems it could cause trouble. Just to clarify my point of view.

Greeks and Albanians are culturally close, in the Indoeuropean point of view. I dont mean that greeks and albanians are the same or have the same origins, because if I say that people might get offended (and I dont understand why, but I guess because of religious historical character of this issue). I never said that Ellini or Ilir is the same! You should keep in mind that 3 millenia passed since the archaic times of Homerus, and since that time the greek and the illyrian followed different paths, to become modern greek and albanian. My theory (better say hypothesis) is that in the era of the Illiad the Thracians, the Illyrians, the Macedonians and the Greeks were less differing parts of the same culture, lets say the pelasgian. But later, the Greek tribes, having a geographical position that favoured the commerce, left appart the bucolic pastoral lifes and started the "politic" life, or the life of the polis, which included commerce and travelling etc etc. The greeks came into contact with more developed cultures, like the egyptian etc, and their culture of course got affected. So lets say that the greek started getting more "civilised" (even though more appropriate should be became more "polite" as related to polis). But if we compare the languages, the archaic greek of Homerus and the albanian I am sure we could find some similarities. Now certainly that Homerus language is more related to modern greek, as its predecessory. I dont want to say that the antic greeks were the ancestors of the albanians, noway. I m just saying that between the greeks and the albanian there could be found a common origin, which can be nearer to the "historical era". Now, this is an issue that could be studied, but to do this we need a team of scientists who know albanian and greek culture, who have deep knowledge on the languages, and of the languages story. There were some albanian scientists who started working on this direction, and also some arvanites(greek). But for a more credible result we should have the work of scientist from both countries, as well as impartial ones(from other countries). I believe that studying this issue could be worthful scientifically talking.
 
Lets not tok about hellenised albanians or albanised greeks, and lets not talk about education v.s. barbarism. I dont believe this is a political forum, and i think that people should post here their logic, not their passions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 12:55

Your hypothesis is similar (almost the same) with the known book of  Jacques. This hypothesis has a lot of gap and many un-historical truths. For example the Macedonians never mentioned in the Homeric poets. Mentioned other historical thinks such as Magnetes,Pieria  e.t.c.  But because this thread regards the Epirotans please see the previous  posts and deposit your opinion if were Greeks, Illyrians or something else.



Edited by akritas - 31-May-2006 at 12:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 14:55

Homerus was a poet...he didn't need to mention historical places or people. In the historical scientific point of view it should be more accurate to analyse the linguistic data provided by the Illiad and the Odyssea.

Now, I am sorry but I can't tell what the Epirotes were. This is not the aim of a debate, I believe the aim of this forum is to bring facts, data, hypothesis and theories. Confronting them we might get closer to the truth, but keep in mind, there is no absolute truth in history. So lets discuss the topic, and lets compare arguments. If you will feel happy I can say Epirotes were greek, are greek and will always be greek, and you know what, I can say also that the albanians never existed for real. But allow me to say it, it would be better if you studied greek and albanian and try to compare linguistically. Then your words could sound more scientific.
But it seems like you already have your answer, and are tired of this posts..
 
And regarding the "known book of Jacques" I am sorry to dissapoint you, but I haven't heard of it. What i posted before were facts that I ve noticed my self. But if this Jacques shares my point of view, probably I need to read that. Whats his name and the title of the book, please.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-May-2006 at 15:30
Homer mention a lot of historical places such as Pieria,Emathia and Magnetes.
 
The book  is
 
 
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