Topic: Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ? Posted: 17-May-2007 at 20:33
To all modern greek guys.I m from the region of Laberia in albania,i dont know if i m originaly ( i m talking about hundrets of years here) greek or albanian,but i envite all other guys who can be neutral in this conversation, to pay atention to this simple fact that can be seen today so easy without carring out chientific research.( just to point out that most of the region of Laberia lays in Epiros).
now,here is the milion dollar question! pay atention
The whole region of Epiros today is inhabited by people who have very big fisical resemblance.you only need to look at them,without carrying out a DNA analisys to find out that they are who they all are.
Here comes the question.
How come that the modern greek people who live in epiros have a big fisical resemblance to their albanian counterparts and the greek people who dont live in epiros dont??????????
Can somebody explain this to me????????????
Adittional information.I Have been born very near NARTA, a small village in the city of vlora which is inhabitet by few hundred greek-speaking people.
I have family conections in this village because of my greek-speaking uncle,and so in the year 1991,we set out to visit greece for the first time,and guess what, we were shocked to find out that in the areas close to albania,old people specially,were speeking to us in albanain,sain they were arvanitas and that we are brothers,when i returned to greece after 3 years,during which the media and the establishment of greece had carried out a campaign of insulst and deliberate dehumanisations of albanain imigrants,nobody dared speek albanian to us anymore,as a matter of fact nobody even wanted to speak to us.With this new hate are grown and fed the modern greek guys who are atacking albanain guys here in the forum.I tell them not to defend hellenism,which is a modern thessis (i would say) created by the British and french to suit their propaganda with such fanaticism.
Can u modern greek guys tell me if u know that lord byron learned albanian during his stay in greece??can somebody tell me why the british only relessed many memoirs of MISS DURHAM only in the year 2006????
Why was Yanina mentioned as a albnaian city and not a greek one before the greek independence?
now,here is the milion dollar question! pay atention
The whole region of Epiros today is inhabited by people who have very big fisical resemblance.you only need to look at them,without carrying out a DNA analisys to find out that they are who they all are.
1) My partner next to me is Epirotan. I don't know if you would actually find a resemblance. Have you seen the difference between Epirotans of the Ionian Islands and Epirotans of the mainland?
2) We're talking about Epirus 2500 years or more ago. You're talking about a period where: a) A lot of Arvanites during Byzantine years were invited to the empire, b) a period of Ottoman rule where a specific group of Albanian people became land lords under the commandment of the Pasha in the area of Ioanina and around. c) a period without borders in the balcans.
How come that the modern greek people who live in epiros have a big fisical resemblance to their albanian counterparts and the greek people who dont live in epiros dont??????????
My answer is above... Let's add that todays albania had many northern Epirots. So it is vise versa.
Adittional information.I Have been born very near NARTA, a small village in the city of vlora which is inhabitet by few hundred greek-speaking people.
I have family conections in this village because of my greek-speaking uncle,and so in the year 1991,we set out to visit greece for the first time,and guess what, we were shocked to find out that in the areas close to albania,old people specially,were speeking to us in albanain,sain they were arvanitas and that we are brothers
Nothing strange with that. This happens in all borders...And if they were Arvanites then ofcourse they could probably speak a dialect of your language.
,when i returned to greece after 3 years,during which the media and the establishment of greece had carried out a campaign of insulst and deliberate dehumanisations of albanain imigrants,nobody dared speek albanian to us anymore,as a matter of fact nobody even wanted to speak to us.
Yes it was a bad period since the borders were out of controll. If you remember well, there was a revolt in Albania back then. The prisons were opened and a lot of people with criminal record escaped through the border. You can imagine that if that happened anywhere the authorities would take action. The reason why somebody didn't dare to speak albanian was because many didn't have green cards. If the border-police checked them out and found out that they were illegally in the country, they would be sent back. Simple as that. If you check out now, when the condition is under controll and there's a more complete law about green cards, albanians don't need to stay in the country illegaly since they can get one of those easily.
With this new hate are grown and fed the modern greek guys who are atacking albanain guys here in the forum.I tell them not to defend hellenism,which is a modern thessis (i would say) created by the British and french to suit their propaganda with such fanaticism.
Then we might say Romiosyni which is our invention ;) And btw, as you can see i don't attack anyone that is not hostile to me. But lets not confuse an attack with criticism due to the lack of sources or trolling. :)
[quote] Can u modern greek guys tell me if u know that lord byron learned albanian during his stay in greece??
Some areas in Attika was center for Arvanites who settled there during Ottoman rule. See for example Kalyvia, Paiania etc.
[quote]
Why was Yanina mentioned as a albnaian city and not a greek one before the greek independence?
As I said before...Tsiflikades...Albanian landlords under the control of the Pasha. That's a reason many Tzedes (Ioanina inhabitants) are so hostile against Albanians. But...Maybe it is wrong to say Albanians, cause their problem is against a specific group not everyone.
Now Laberia...Those are modern issues. We're talking about Epirotans like the Chaionians, Molossians, Thesprotians, Ambracians, Ionian Islanders etc.
And the illyrian migration from a protoceltic body of peoples(which the illyrians were,protocelts) into the are known as illyria at 1000-1300 bc related to the latene culture.No relationship with Greeks(epirotes).
Am i seeing double? No since even ancient writers quoted say that they are so alike the Celts that you can tell them apart only from language. Haaalstat, latene and the celts & illyrians share common origins though had different languages.Illyrians are protocelts that greeks and romans later called illyrians.
now,here is the milion dollar question! pay atention
The whole region of Epiros today is inhabited by people who have very big fisical resemblance.you only need to look at them,without carrying out a DNA analisys to find out that they are who they all are.
1) My partner next to me is Epirotan. I don't know if you would actually find a resemblance. Have you seen the difference between Epirotans of the Ionian Islands and Epirotans of the mainland?
2) We're talking about Epirus 2500 years or more ago. You're talking about a period where: a) A lot of Arvanites during Byzantine years were invited to the empire, b) a period of Ottoman rule where a specific group of Albanian people became land lords under the commandment of the Pasha in the area of Ioanina and around. c) a period without borders in the balcans.
- Wrong!
Well people will differ slightly!But in general they will have similarities which define an area!The reason why the islands population is different from the mainland Cameria goes back in ancient times.The people of the islands were ancient Greeks, and the people of the land were Illyrians!
There is another very important factor you should never forget to add when giving an answer to this question!That is the brutal removal by force of more than 900.000 Albanians Cam into turkey and exchange for them with dark skin Greeks from Asia Minor!So indeed this are your Greeks of Epirus, no autochthonous Greeks in Cameria ever existed in history since ancient times!
Therefore this is also the reason why the British prior to this ugly event mention it to be an Albanian land full of Albanian people, which you, sadly for us, successfully managed to dilute, not like the unsuccessful Serb motion on Kosovo, which is the best situation to compare it with as both were in collaboration criminal and nation blower anty Albanian acts!
This all you Greeks and Serbs should be deeply ashamed of!
How come that the modern greek people who live in epiros have a big fisical resemblance to their albanian counterparts and the greek people who dont live in epiros dont??????????
My answer is above... Let's add that todays albania had many northern Epirots. So it is vise versa.
- Do not mix things up, I repeat if all the regions peoples DNA is taken today both in Greece and Albania we will all be able to say how match those Asian Greeks have multiplied and how much have the autochthonous Albanians, and if people have mixed, by which extent, and also we will be able to draw a clear map, which will prove identical the accusation map razed by the Albanian Cam who were taken out by force into turkey!
All those people have legitimate ownership documents of their land, houses and wealth in the Greek Epirus or as they call their homeland:Cameria
Adittional information.I Have been born very near NARTA, a small village in the city of vlora which is inhabitet by few hundred greek-speaking people.
I have family conections in this village because of my greek-speaking uncle,and so in the year 1991,we set out to visit greece for the first time,and guess what, we were shocked to find out that in the areas close to albania,old people specially,were speeking to us in albanain,sain they were arvanitas and that we are brothers
Nothing strange with that. This happens in all borders...And if they were Arvanites then ofcourse they could probably speak a dialect of your language.
- Look at this ignorant answer you have given here, its pathetic in all honesty!
First of all you admit that the arvanites are Albanian who speak a dialect of Albanian!
Secondly, not that it would be wrong to talk here about dialects, but just that it is a none sense as far as the topic is concerned!
The point is that they speak Albanian, therefore are Albanians trapped or occupied by Greece, as history has taught us!This is the point that we are trying to get across, Epirus has always been Illyrian-Albanian, not Greek, never!
,when i returned to greece after 3 years,during which the media and the establishment of greece had carried out a campaign of insulst and deliberate dehumanisations of albanain imigrants,nobody dared speek albanian to us anymore,as a matter of fact nobody even wanted to speak to us.
Yes it was a bad period since the borders were out of controll. If you remember well, there was a revolt in Albania back then. The prisons were opened and a lot of people with criminal record escaped through the border. You can imagine that if that happened anywhere the authorities would take action. The reason why somebody didn't dare to speak albanian was because many didn't have green cards. If the border-police checked them out and found out that they were illegally in the country, they would be sent back. Simple as that. If you check out now, when the condition is under controll and there's a more complete law about green cards, albanians don't need to stay in the country illegaly since they can get one of those easily.
- The man said that he went in Greece for the first time in 1991, than he adds I went back in Greece after three years, now that adds up to 1994!
In 1994 there was no uprising or any kind of revolt in Albania.
First proves your deep ignorance for anything concerning Albanian matters, so I would ask you to be truthful and not chat garbage here!
The green cards were introduced in year 2000, therefore it could have not been an issue in 1994!
This man is telling the world this ugly Greek truth, that the chauvinist ugly government of Athens after realizing that with the new inevitable flow of Albanian emigrants into Greece, they would be informed of this long suffering and denial of the arvanites and Camides in Greece.
So the government had to come up with a solution and indeed very fast, this is why it has been reported that it has been proved that the government of Athens had invested millions of dollars to portray the Albanians as bad people, so it could achieve their silence and those brake this link!
In the light of all this founded facts, this neo Greek chauvinists here in this forum dare make the same comments as their governments official stance in Athens!
Well this is why I have explained for the entire world to know it!
With this new hate are grown and fed the modern greek guys who are atacking albanain guys here in the forum.I tell them not to defend hellenism,which is a modern thessis (i would say) created by the British and french to suit their propaganda with such fanaticism.
Then we might say Romiosyni which is our invention ;) And btw, as you can see i don't attack anyone that is not hostile to me. But lets not confuse an attack with criticism due to the lack of sources or trolling. :)
Well you keep on hiding behind some sources, this is where you base everything!But you ignore everything ales out of those sources, this is why your calculations do not add up unfortunately for you!
But, just to reassure you that everything will be checked until the end!
No source of yours will be taken for granted, unless its scientifically proven that it has not been manipulated!
So until then you can indeed rest in peace for now!
But when talking about history, I disagree to talk only about your suitable written sources only, life has got more sides to it, and a problem in maths can be solved in many different way, so the written sources are not the only hope in the way of knowing history although they do tell their own stories and unveil the reason behind their very existence!
[quote] Can u modern greek guys tell me if u know that lord byron learned albanian during his stay in greece??
Some areas in Attika was center for Arvanites who settled there during Ottoman rule. See for example Kalyvia, Paiania etc.
- Well it is indeed very interesting!
And out of the alleged Greek majority or overwhelming population of Greece, the British man chose to stay with some villagers who happened to be old Albanian emigrants, and this is where he learned Albanian!
Do you actually realize that mathematically your idiotic claim is unsustainable?!
No, your answer is a wrong answer, and identical to that of an old Greek chauvinist!
The reality was different, the entire land the British new as Greece was Albanian at that time, or the Illyrians which survived until present day!
This is mathematically probable, and this is why he learned Albanian
[quote]
Why was Yanina mentioned as a albnaian city and not a greek one before the greek independence?
As I said before...Tsiflikades...Albanian landlords under the control of the Pasha. That's a reason many Tzedes (Ioanina inhabitants) are so hostile against Albanians. But...Maybe it is wrong to say Albanians, cause their problem is against a specific group not everyone.
Now Laberia...Those are modern issues. We're talking about Epirotans like the Chaionians, Molossians, Thesprotians, Ambracians, Ionian Islanders etc.
So, please stay in that line.
- Janina was mentioned as an Albanian city because it was always an Albanian city!Anybody who says different is an ignorant and or disgracefully disregards the British fact finding mission.
Another very important issue to prove this is the cadastral Turkish registration of Camerias population those days!
For anybody whos interested on this the doors of the archive in Istanbul are open!
Janinas Greek population are not hostile against Albanians apart from a few that had harsh answers back from the autochthonous Cam Albanian population when the last were given Albanian houses, land and wealth by force from the pseudo Greek government of the time, which brought this black Greeks from Asia in Albanian Cameria!
The name Cameria, and Laberia although they still alive today in our language, they go deep back in our ancient roots, as this names were used by the Illyrians thousands of years ago, and appear repeatedly in many sources!
Please all you Greeks, all I can tell you is one word, stay way from todays politics, nobody is threatening modern Greece, so there is no need for you to modify and change the history the way you like it, ignoring the reality and the very people of that place which you should respect
And the illyrian migration from a protoceltic body of peoples(which the illyrians were,protocelts) into the are known as illyria at 1000-1300 bc related to the latene culture.No relationship with Greeks(epirotes).
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH PARDON ME if i cant help loughing!
Its your fault for showing such unbearable level of stupidity!
Who are you to tell us who the Illyrians were, and who the ancient Greek was, and that the first have no connection with Epirus?
Who do you think you are, that by posting here some maps you will convince the world, that no Epirus its Greek and we were doing the rite thing to remove and kill thousands of innocent Albanians from there when we occupied the land in 1913.
Oh no, my mistake, you say we liberate it!
What a shameful act!
Terrible and every Modern Greek who still carries the same stance is terrible indeed!
On one hand this Greek two faced animals, tell us that we have no written records on our sources about the Illyrians, or that it is not enough, on the other hand are moving the heavens and the earth to try and keep us way from Epirus and other land they stole from us!
This effort again I repeat is executed in full cooperation with the Serbs, who seek the same!
Now this is it, cut the crap off!
We were the only and exclusive tribes in Illyrian Epirus and Illyrian Makedhon, and the ancient Greeks were Lekas slaves!
This is how it was, no need to try and deform it now!
When the Celts started migrating south, the Illyrians shrinked and retreated south, then after the Slav invasions they retreated even further south, but always where other Illyrians were, there is no scientifical facts to lead us believe that the Illyrians occupied Epirus or Makedhon
Olvios has right...Max Muller is over 100 years old source before the excavations in Epirus were made. + He doesn't say they were Illyrians either so...
You see even you accept that there is an ugly fixing that occurred with your pseudo excavations which should all be held untrue unless a through investigation upon all the founded material is being examined by an independent group.
Dont mention other authors, please you make me through up now!
18. Next followed the Tarentine War, in name and title a single campaign, but manifold in it's victories; for it involved as it were in a single ruin alike the Campanians, the Apulians and the Lucanians and the Tarentines, who were the original cause of it, in fact, the whole of Italy, and besides all these, Pyrrhus, the most renowed ruler in Greece"
"yet afterwards, when this same king Pyrrhus had twice had his camp captured and had been twice wounded and had been driven as fugitiive over sea and and back to his own land of Greece."
i have not studied this book yet, but i will soon!
however what i can say is that, the british also called the teritory greece, but they lerned Albanian there and no greek!
so maybe we have to re think about the usage of the name greek for Illyrian teritories
The people of the islands were ancient Greeks, and the people of the land were Illyrians!
Your sources = 0
Trolling again ?
The Dorians invaded Greece via Epirus and Macedonia at the end of the 2nd millennium BC (circa 1100 BC-1000 BC), though the reasons for their migration are obscure. The region's original inhabitants were driven southward into the Greek mainland by the invasion and by the early 1st millennium BC three principal clusters of Greek-speaking tribes had emerged in Epirus. These were the Chaones of northwestern Epirus, the Molossians in the centre and the Thesprotians in the middle.
There is another very important factor you should never forget to add when giving an answer to this question!That is the brutal removal by force of more than 900.000 Albanians Cam into turkey and exchange for them with dark skin Greeks from Asia Minor!
Your sources = 0
It was during this time that Cham Albanians were forced out of Greek Epirus; members of the Cham community had collaborated with the Axis forces during the occupation of Greece.
So indeed this are your Greeks of Epirus, no autochthonous Greeks in Cameria ever existed in history since ancient times!
Like people can see above, you're wrong. There was no ancient Cameria. There was always Thesprotia.
Therefore this is also the reason why the British prior to this ugly event mention it to be an Albanian land full of Albanian people, which you, sadly for us, successfully managed to dilute, not like the unsuccessful Serb motion on Kosovo, which is the best situation to compare it with as both were in collaboration criminal and nation blower anty Albanian acts!
This all you Greeks and Serbs should be deeply ashamed of!
1) Stay on topic. This is irrelavant to the time we are discussing. 2) I can't stand all this noncence so enjoy the following report from the University of Berlin.
A new situation is formed in 1908 in the overall cross border region. Austria-Hungary and Italy promote plans for the creation of Great Albania in order to counter balance the Slavic expansionism. The 1st Balkan War in 1912 played a decisive role for the allied Balkan countries that liberated almost every European territory from Turkish domination. The disagreement however concerning the distribution of territories lead to the 2nd Balkan War in 1913 between Serbia-Greece-Montenegro and Bulgaria. The defeat of Bulgaria ended with the Bucharest Treaty where the relevant distribution of land was settled. In 1912 the Great Powers decided on the creation of the Albanian State.
Now...Your words are either hypocrisy or ignorance...
Do not mix things up, I repeat if all the regions peoples DNA is taken today both in Greece and Albania we will all be able to say how match those Asian Greeks have multiplied and how much have the autochthonous Albanians, and if people have mixed, by which extent, and also we will be able to draw a clear map, which will prove identical the accusation map razed by the Albanian Cam who were taken out by force into turkey!
Until then I think i will wait ok? But can you show me an ancient source telling about these autochthonus Albanians?
All those people have legitimate ownership documents of their land, houses and wealth in the Greek Epirus or as they call their homeland:Cameria
Where was ancient Cameria? Which historian mentions it? None!
Epirus has always been Illyrian-Albanian, not Greek, never!
If you want to believe that fine. Just don't pretend to be a scholar who will teach the world that.
- The man said that he went in Greece for the first time in 1991, than he adds I went back in Greece after three years, now that adds up to 1994!
In 1994 there was no uprising or any kind of revolt in Albania.
First proves your deep ignorance for anything concerning Albanian matters, so I would ask you to be truthful and not chat garbage here!
Maybe you're right. But where there an uncontrolled illegal migration to the country? Yes or No?
The green cards were introduced in year 2000, therefore it could have not been an issue in 1994! This man is telling the world this ugly Greek truth, that the chauvinist ugly government of Athens after realizing that with the new inevitable flow of Albanian emigrants into Greece, they would be informed of this long suffering and denial of the arvanites and Camides in Greece.
So the government had to come up with a solution and indeed very fast, this is why it has been reported that it has been proved that the government of Athens had invested millions of dollars to portray the Albanians as bad people, so it could achieve their silence and those brake this link!
In the light of all this founded facts, this neo Greek chauvinists here in this forum dare make the same comments as their governments official stance in Athens!
Well this is why I have explained for the entire world to know it!
Can you show one document where the Greek state possed the Albanians as bad people?
Well you keep on hiding behind some sources, this is where you base everything!But you ignore everything ales out of those sources, this is why your calculations do not add up unfortunately for you!
Here i laugh...
But, just to reassure you that everything will be checked until the end!
No source of yours will be taken for granted, unless its scientifically proven that it has not been manipulated!
In your and my case you have from my side neutral sources and from your side NO SOURCES.
So until then you can indeed rest in peace for now!But when talking about history, I disagree to talk only about your suitable written sources only, life has got more sides to it, and a problem in maths can be solved in many different way, so the written sources are not the only hope in the way of knowing history although they do tell their own stories and unveil the reason behind their very existence!
Desperate attempts of hypocrisy. How many sources have you posted Claedy? Will you discuss about the matter which is Ancient Epirus or will you continue to attack and offend people on this forum?
Some areas in Attika was center for Arvanites who settled there during Ottoman rule. See for example Kalyvia, Paiania etc.
- Well it is indeed very interesting!
I'm happy you appreciate something from what I write. In the paragraph above i was accused to use sources that suits me.
And out of the alleged Greek majority or overwhelming population of Greece, the British man chose to stay with some villagers who happened to be old Albanian emigrants, and this is where he learned Albanian!
Do you actually realize that mathematically your idiotic claim is unsustainable?!
No, your answer is a wrong answer, and identical to that of an old Greek chauvinist!
The reality was different, the entire land the British new as Greece was Albanian at that time, or the Illyrians which survived until present day!
This is mathematically probable, and this is why he learned Albanian
And here I laugh again and tell you...I'm reporting you for trolling, going of topic and for calling me names, while the only thing i've done in to stay on topic and support my opinion with sources.
Maybe that will remind you that we're discussing history here...
Topic will be closed for examining if there are any violations of the AE Code of Contact in the latest posts.
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?
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Topic: Epirotans were Greeks or Illyrians ?
celt
