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RScannix
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Topic: Economic Revival in Post-War Spain Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 20:22 |
Recently, I have been reading up on the Franco era in Spain. A point in that time span which interests be is the so-called "Spanish miracle". This is the process by which a nation far less modernized than other European powers and ravaged by a civil war managed not only to recover, but to achieve a significant degree of development fairly quickly. And under a do-nothing leader such as Franco, no less. (although he reformed the quasi-fascist economy during this time.)
I would like to know what anybody else has to say on this topic.
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Maju
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Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 01:10 |
The 50s and specially 60s where miraculous almost everywhere. The fascist Iberian regimes had full western support in practical terms, there was a mini-Marshall plan for them.
For the rest the economy was semi-public, very protectionist and there was also massive economic emigration to Germany. Most heavy industry and strategic sectors like communications were virtually public property. It was the typical fascist economical system: semi-public, nationalist and developist.
But overall it was a strategic country with a solidly pro-western (totalitarian) regime that lent 4 bases to the USA.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 19:24 |
Originally posted by Maju
It was the typical fascist economical system: semi-public, nationalist and developist.
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Better this than commies and anarchists. Franco saved Spain from them. He was not an angel himslef and his regime like all such regimes sucks but i would say it was lesser of 2 evils.
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Maju
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Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 21:37 |
Such regime is the worst thing you can do psychologially to a people: like in Iran or China they live with little acces to information, brainwashed by a Catholic schooling system, submitted only by means of the massacre of 1,000,000 people, forbidden of speaking their language, killed impunely just because of speaking loud, brains destroyed in hysterically censored media...
And behind all: corruption everywhere. As the regime was ilegitimate, people felt they were entitled to cheat the law. There's no room in such a regime for people to develope a civic attitude of co-responsability, what needs of democratic stability. People lived in fear.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 06:07 |
Just like in communism but not to such extent
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Maju
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Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 10:47 |
Under Stalinism (which is not Communism but an extreme form of Socialism) at least they did not ahve to suffer the Church... though they had to bear Lysenko.
But anyhow: I find distasteful that you always interfere in the topics that adress fascism just to say that fascists were "better than communists". Why don't you open a topic to discuss this. Thanks.
Fascism is definitively worse than Stalinism because while it has all disadvantages, it offers nothing to the working class nor humankind progress. Fascism supports all forms of obscurantism like Religion and retains private property, nationalizing ONLY the industries that are problematic. This way the common citizen pays for the faults of Capitalists, who, eventually re-buy the sanitized industry again, after the public has spent a lot of resources in it, at a bargain price. This did not happen in Stalinism befor the Yeltsinist dismantling of 70 years of collective effort.
Whatever the case, it's clear that the economic evolution of Spain and Portugal in the booming 60s has nothing to do with the virtues of faults of the economic system as such but rather in the pan-Western policy of regional allocation of resources. If Franco's regime would have ruled Uganda it would still be Uganda, not Spain - I hope you get my point.
The 60s (unlike the 30s!) were a boom. This allowed the Capitalist Center to be relatively generous even with colonies. When the good times had sunk in the 1st Oil Crisis of the 70s, Spain and Portugal had to face painful reform under the demands of EU. Many many problems were inherited by the new "democracies", including the obsolete heavy industry that was viable no more but also a guerrilla war that still continues, a moral vacuum, 10 or 20 of sociological fracture, causing the elder and new generations to be almost 100 years apart of each other: while the old ones were thinking in clues of pre-WWII times, the young ones were inmersed in Punk and post.Modernity. 30 or 40 years had passed with Spanish society in psychological hibernation due to censorship and repression. Taking back the path of the world was a titanic effort, specially as the Old Regime insisted in remaining in the shadows, exerting the power of their paramilitary and military terror even when the "democratic" process was very advanced in time.
Nobody deserves a terrorist fundamentalist regime as that. And I feel really bad abut Iranians and many other nations, where the authoritarian regimes still keep the people out of the cultural trends of the world with paternalistic pretensions that just aim to justify the tyranny.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 16:24 |
Originally posted by Maju
Under Stalinism (which is not Communism but an extreme form of Socialism) at least they did not ahve to suffer the Church... though they had to bear Lysenko.
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Catholic religion is not that bad. At least way better than unholy church of Marx, Engels, Lenin and their prophet - living god - Stalin.
In fact i dont like social doctrine of catholic church because i find it socialist.
Originally posted by Maju
But anyhow: I find distasteful that you always interfere in the topics that adress fascism just to say that fascists were "better than communists". Why don't you open a topic to discuss this. Thanks. |
I just said my opinion about situation in Spain. I belive Franco was lesser of 2 evils. Thats all. For Spain he was surelly better than Communists and anarchists. If I was a Spanish, in that sad moment of history - civil war - I would have supported Franco or I would have stayed neutral. But semi totalitarian regime is better than totalitarian regime. And during civil war the choise was really limited.
Originally posted by Maju
Fascism is definitively worse than Stalinism because while it has all disadvantages, it offers nothing to the working class nor humankind progress. Fascism supports all forms of obscurantism like Religion and retains private property, nationalizing ONLY the industries that are problematic. This way the common citizen pays for the faults of Capitalists, who, eventually re-buy the sanitized industry again, after the public has spent a lot of resources in it, at a bargain price. This did not happen in Stalinism befor the Yeltsinist dismantling of 70 years of collective effort.
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Now you are coming with Communism vs Fascism again, not me. I didnt want to start it. Why do you think that you have right to express your opinion while im not.
Im not going into this discussion because i dont want to be again reported to administration for it, like it happend before. Altough the warning i recived was very discret and polite, you have achieved your goal and gagged my mouth in your communist way, by censorship.
Edited by Mosquito
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Maju
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Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 18:00 |
You didn't start it?! Yes, you did. Read your first post: it's just mixing oranges and apples! ... Then, the disyuntive then wasn't between fascists and commies, as you say: the Popular Front was a wide anti-fascist coalition dominated by socialdemocrats and liberal republicans. The PCE was just a small party. Anarchosyndicalists were strong, yes. What's the problem with that? Anarchists are essentially democratic - though not in the representative way, of course. Anyhow it was the democratic choice of the people (besides there were surely very good reasons for such a choice). Are you a democrat? Or are you fascist? You must ask yourself that question: what happens if the people votes socialist or communist or whatever you dont like? What happens if the people choses that way? You have to accept it or you have to admit you are a fascist.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 19:06 |
Originally posted by Maju
Then, the disyuntive then wasn't between fascists and commies, as you say: the Popular Front was a wide anti-fascist coalition dominated by socialdemocrats and liberal republicans. The PCE was just a small party. Anarchosyndicalists were strong, yes. What's the problem with that? Anarchists are essentially democratic - though not in the representative way, of course.
Anyhow it was the democratic choice of the people (besides there were surely very good reasons for such a choice). Are you a democrat? Or are you fascist? You must ask yourself that question: what happens if the people votes socialist or communist or whatever you dont like? What happens if the people choses that way? You have to accept it or you have to admit you are a fascist.
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Nazists were also elected in democratic elections.
You know, sometimes the good old middle class must step in and take power to stop the crowd, the brainless plebs from doing creazy things. Like during French revolution when they removed Robespierre after he killed Danton. Like in ancient Roman Republic when Sulla came and removed from power the followers of Marius.
But somtimes there is no choice, just great evil and lesser evil. I belive that people in Germany made wrong choice, while people in Spain choosed right. Franco was a brutal monster but there was noone else who could have lead the good people against plebs and restore the law and order.
Edited by Mosquito
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Ikki
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Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 19:10 |
I just said my opinion about situation in Spain. I belive Franco was
lesser of 2 evils. Thats all. For Spain he was surelly better than
Communists and anarchists. If I was a Spanish, in that sad moment of
history - civil war - I would have supported Franco or I would have
stayed neutral. But semi totalitarian regime is better than
totalitarian regime. And during civil war the choise was really limited. |
Mosquito, sorry but you don't know what are you saying. The Republic at
1936 was a liberal and democratic regime, by this time the influence of
communist in the government was light (by now forget the stalinist) and
the anarquist inexistent. So, becareful.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 19:13 |
Dont get me wrong. Im not the one who would support Fascist against Communists. For me both systems are criminal. But there are some basic values, fundaments of society, like: familly, private property, personal freedoms etc. which must be always respected. No healthy society can exist without them.
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Mosquito
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Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 19:26 |
Originally posted by Ikki
Mosquito, sorry but you don't know what are you saying. The Republic at 1936 was a liberal and democratic regime, by this time the influence of communist in the government was light (by now forget the stalinist) and the anarquist inexistent. So, becareful.
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Actually in spanish civil war were weird people on both sides and i wouldnt indentify myself with nationalists nor with the republicans. I guess if I was Spanish i would emigrate elsewhere.
From Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War
On the Republican side were Basque and Catalan nationalists, socialists, Stalinist and Trotskyist communists, some liberals and anarchists of varying ideologies.
Edited by Mosquito
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Maju
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Posted: 16-Apr-2006 at 20:43 |
The Civil War was a rape of democracy. If you don't see that, I'm not getting you wrong: you are a fascist.
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Mosquito
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Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 05:24 |
Originally posted by Maju
The Civil War was a rape of democracy. If you don't see that, I'm not getting you wrong: you are a fascist. |
Not really. The state was in danger. Armed bands were murdering people on the streets. Separatists, communists, socialists, anarchists, fascists and other types of rebelliants were on the way to destroy the state. The goverment was not able to deal with crisis. Normal people were unable to live in peace. Violence was everywhere. There was no democracy but anarchy and fear.
Edited by Mosquito
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Ikki
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Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 12:17 |
At the moment that the military attack to the government the anarquist
and communist took the side of the republicans, but the anarquist was
enemies of the Republic (of course they feared more to the fascists)
and the commies had very few power. The power of the government was
between the PSOE (with two clear branch radical and moderate) and the
liberal parties, in fact, there were three groups at the beginning of
the war in Spain: the rebels, the reformists and the revolutionaires
(mainly anarchists, crushed by the Republic in 1937); the communist
party, althougt grew inside the republican regime never try to begin
any revolutionary movement. More or less, the rise of the communist
power is a consecuence and not a cause of the war, because they were
very few in 1936 (althougt with influence) and with the support of the
USSR (the question of the weaponry give to the commies a point of
pression) could get power.
I can't understand your point of view, i say to you that there were a
democratic regime threatened by two sides left and right, and you say
that because the situation was caotic you took the nationalist side.
Without acritude, what do you want that we think about you, if you
prefer the fascist side to the democratic regime?
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Maju
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Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 12:59 |
Originally posted by Mosquito
Originally posted by Maju
The Civil War was a rape of democracy. If you don't see that, I'm not getting you wrong: you are a fascist. |
Not really. The state was in danger. Armed bands were murdering people on the streets. Separatists, communists, socialists, anarchists, fascists and other types of rebelliants were on the way to destroy the state. The goverment was not able to deal with crisis. Normal people were unable to live in peace. Violence was everywhere. There was no democracy but anarchy and fear. |
That's plainly false. And anyhow, political violence didn't stop with fascism, obviously. There's a smoky red line crossing all the dictatorship, and I'm not talking about the executions and massacres that the fascist organized but about the resistence that persisted in several ways till long after the end of the dictatorship, with one branch still active today. But overall, if in the epaceful half of 1936, there had been one or two political crimes, in the second half of that year there was a true political massacre. The areas controlled by the fascists initially were sistematically cleaned ideologically. The unnamed mass burials are still appearing (but only due to the persistence of locals and relatives - there has been no comission of truth in Spain ever. The problem it seems is that while Calvo Sotelo was a rich man with political prestige, the hundreds of thousands killed by the fascists just have no name. Depending who you ask they may have not even existed at all. You are revolving yourself, like a pig in a corral, in your own crap in order to give some consistence to your lies and assumtions. Fascism is a crime and it is a crime against democracy, liberty, dignity and life. And the ones that support fascism and give them pretexts to justify its cursed existence have just one name: fascist. And it's no literary licence nor name-calling nor anything: it's just a description of those hooligans you like to share letrine with.
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Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 14:33 |
No. Im not a fascist. I like personal liberty and social liberty. I wouldnt support Fascist, nor i would support communists.
It is the matter of taste. Like in the poem of Zbigniew Herbert, great polish poet, who was anticommunist. One cant talk about crimes commited by fascist or communists, another about how stupid and not logic those ideologies are, but really, it is the matter of taste.
The Power of Taste
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It didn't require great character at all our refusal disagreement and resistance we had a shred of necessary courage but fundamentally it was a matter of taste Yes taste in which there are fibers of soul the cartilage of conscience
Who knows if we had been better and more attractively tempted sent rose-skinned women thin as a wafer or fantastic creatures from the paintings of Hieronymus Bosch but what kind of hell was there at this time a wet pit the murderers' alley the barrack called a palace of justice a home-brewed Mephisto in a Lenin jacket sent Aurora's grandchildren out into the field boys with potato faces very ugly girls with red hands
Verily their rhetoric was made of cheap sacking (Marcus Tullius kept turning in his grave) chains of tautologies a couple of concepts like flails the dialectics of slaughterers no distinctions in reasoning syntax deprived of beauty of the subjunctive
So aesthetics can be helpful in life one should not neglect the study of beauty
Before we declare our consent we must carefully examine the shape of the architecture the rhythm of the drums and pipes official colors the despicable ritual of funerals
Our eyes and ears refused obedience the princes of our senses proudly chose exile
It did not require great character at all we had a shred of necessary courage but fundamentally it was a matter of taste Yes taste that commands us to get out to make a wry face draw out a sneer even if for this the precious capital of the body the head must fall
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Zbigniew Herbert
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Maju
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Posted: 17-Apr-2006 at 16:22 |
Look: you are comparing what happened in Russia and Poland with what happened in Spain. Yet in Spain never happened what happened in Russia and Poland: it happened what happened in Spain. And that was that the fascist killed 1,000,000 people via the war and the massacres and that my grandparents, parents and myself have got to suffer decades of fascist rule - if you know what that means. And I'm reporting you as troll. I'm tired that you corrupt everything that is anti-fascist with your silly "commies are bad too". Remeber that those fascist criminals rose at that idiotic motto yourself repeat once and again. You are protecting and favoring the fascists and I challenge you to do the same with topics about the Holocaust - which is not essentially different of what we are discussing here. Tell the victims of the Holocaust, many of them communists themselves, that "actually it could have been worst: you could have fallen in the hands of Stalin". Tell them your stupid song! I'm tired of listening to that nonsense!
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Richard XIII
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Posted: 18-Apr-2006 at 02:22 |
You are sick Maju, and I don't understand why moderators tolerate your manifestations.
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Posted: 18-Apr-2006 at 17:40 |
Originally posted by Maju
And that was that the fascist killed 1,000,000 people via the war and the massacres and that my grandparents, parents and myself have got to suffer decades of fascist rule - if you know what that means.
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well, my familly had to suffer even more decades under communist rule, if you know what that means.
And that million people killed "via war and the massacres" were not only victims of fascists. The Republicans of all colours were murdering people too and the number of their victims wasnt much smaller.
From wikipedia:
"While the war lasted only about three years, the political situation had already been violent for several years before. The number of casualties is disputed; estimates generally suggest that between 300,000 and 1,000,000 people were killed. Many of these deaths, however, resulted not from military operations but the brutal mass killings perpetrated on both sides. The war started with military uprisings throughout Spain and its Colonies, which were followed by Republican reprisals against the Church, which Republican radicals viewed as an oppressive institution supportive of the old order. There were massacres of Catholic clergy and churches, and monasteries and convents were burned. Twelve bishops, 283 nuns 2,365 monks and 4,184 priests were murdered."
Originally posted by Maju
And I'm reporting you as troll. I'm tired that you corrupt everything that is anti-fascist with your silly "commies are bad too". Remeber that those fascist criminals rose at that idiotic motto yourself repeat once and again.
You are protecting and favoring the fascists and I challenge you to do the same with topics about the Holocaust - which is not essentially different of what we are discussing here. Tell the victims of the Holocaust, many of them communists themselves, that "actually it could have been worst: you could have fallen in the hands of Stalin". |
This is offensive and insultive. I repeat again, im not a fascist and you completelly missunderstood all my posts. For you - anticommunist=fascist.
Originally posted by Maju
Tell them your stupid song! I'm tired of listening to that nonsense!
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This is not a song nor it is stupid. This is a poem of great poet who spent his whole life in complete poverty, who was suffering hunger, only because was anticommunist and didnt want to cooperate with communist regime. This is intelectual poetry but understanding it is beyound your range. It was written by person who suffered from both, fascism and communism and with his whole life gave an example that there are people who wont cooperate with evil, even if it will cost him a wasted life. (and he was an atheist).
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"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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