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The Aryan Problem

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K. V. Ramakrishna Rao View Drop Down
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Aryan Problem
    Posted: 06-Apr-2006 at 09:21

Ariyar in the Ancient

 

Tamil Literature

 

K. V. Ramakrishna Rao

 

1. Introduction: Ever since the advent of Ariyar in Indian history, the word Aryan has assumed significance and far-fetching linguistic and racial connotations. Then came the advent of Dravidians. Caldwells linguistic invention was given a racial twist by the westerners and Indian scholars, though the concept of race and language are two separate entities. Leaving these hypotheses and theories aside, an attempt is made in this paper to study the word Ariyar fund in the ancient Tamil literature, popularly known as Tamil Sangam literature. In the process of understanding the past, there have been persistent and insistent attempts in historiography to import later day ideas, concepts and theories to reflect back on the past events leading to diversified and contradicting situation.  But, here the approach has been restricted to get the meaning of the word Ariyar as found in the ancient Tamil literature.

 

2. In the ancient Tamil literature, the word Ariyar, Ariyan, Ariya etc., found in various places withy their other forms and have been used both as nouns and adjectives. As in recent times, diametrically opposite views have been expressed1 about the inclusion of the Tamil epics Cilappatikaram and Manimekalai within the ambit of  Sangam literature, the discussion is restricted to Ettutogai (the eight anthologies), Pattupattu (the Ten poems) and Padinen Kizh Kanakku (the Eighteen Minor works). Now, let us see, what these poems say about Ariyar.

 

3. Natrinai: It is the heading the list of Ettuttogai and its general theme is love. The word Ariyar appears in the 170th poem, sung by an unknown poet. The companion of the heroin of the poem warts that the hero might be seduced by the beautiful lonely dancing girl. She compares the victory of the Virali (the dancer), who came to a festival clad in a leaf-garment, over her group to the fact that the famous town of Mullur, the Ariya soldiers swarmed, but ran away before the lance-battalion of Malayan (a Cheran), who unsheathed a shining sword and attacked with his large army. From this, we can see that the people who came from the north to attack Cheras were known as Ariyar.

 

4. Kuruntogai: Literally meaning a collection of short poems, it comes next and its theme is also love. The word Ariyar appears in the verse 7, line 3. Here, it is described how Ariyars dance on a tied rope according to the beatings of a drum. The forest full of bamboos were rattled the white ripe seeds of shivering vakai tree (Sirisa tree) tossed by the wind like the drumming of the Ariyar dancing on the rope. Therefore, here it is evident that Ariyar refers to a group of jugglers or tumblers, who performed acrobatics.

 

5. Paditruppattu (the Ten tens): It gives more information about Ariyar in historical setting. The entire extant collection of poems with the deeds and exploits of the Chera Kings. The first and tenth Tens are not available. In the Second Ten, the Patigam (Preface) describes how Imayavaramban Nedunjeraladhan engraved his royal sign bow, which figures on his flag, on the top of the "Himalayas" (lines 4-7). Having roaring oceans has his boundaries (imizh kadal velittamizhagam), he ruled Tamizhagam (the Tamil country) in such a way o excel the other nadus (countries). He made Ariyar bow before him, who were having very great name (fame and heritage).

 

5.1. In the Second Ten, the 11th verse details as how the very famous "Himalayas" abound with Ariyas. Hence, scholars give two different meanings for the Ariyar:

  1. Ariyar = Munivar (rishis) and
  2. Ariyar = Ariya mannar ( Aryan kings) .

The hillside was resplendent with densely and well grown trees of erthrina indica (mullu murukka), a kind of citrus and the yak sleeping there would dream of waterfalls and sweet smelling grass. The "Himalayas" with such fertility was filled with many rishis. In between the "Himalayas" (in the north) and Kumari in the South, there wee Kings who boasted their valour but they were conquered by Nedunjeraladhan. The meaning is thus rendered, You quelled the valour of those who called themselves monarchs of the land between Camorin in the South and the famous "Himalayaslace", where the Ariyas2 abound and yak sleeps on the hills covered thick with the Oleander and dreams of the broad mountain stream and the narandam (lemon-grass)

 

5.2. In fifth Ten, the patigam mentions vadavar, i,e, the people of north and Ariya Annal i.e, head of Ariya Kings. It describes how the kings of the north were afraid of Kadal Prakkottiya Senguttuvan. He marched with his army to bring a good stone for chiseling an image of the goddess of chastity. He came across a head or chief of Ariya Kings, while passing through forests, and defeated him. Then, he brought a stone and washed it in waters of the 'Ganges'. While coming back, he stayed at Irumbil, destroyed Viyaur and Kodungur. He also killed a king named Pazhaiyon.

 

5.3. In the same fifth Ten, the 43rd verse mentions the defeat of kings who were ruling between the 'Himalayas' in the north and Kumari in the south as boundaries. However, the names of the kings or the countries thus defeated are not given in the poem. In the padigam, the kings are mentioned as the vadavar (the Kings of north), the Chiefs of Ariyar are called Ariya Annal, but here they are generally mentioned as Ariya arasar, i.e, the Kings between the 'Himalayas' and Kumari.

 

5.4. In Seventh Ten, the 68th poem narrates how the people who were living in the north or northern direction, were leading a fearless and happy life. The expression used to denote them is vadapula vazhnar.

5.5. So from the description of Paditruppattu, we can see that Ariyar are

 

  the Kings of the north,

  Rishis of the "Himalayaslace",

  the Kings between the boundaries of 'Himalayas' and Kumari and

  the people of the north or northern direction of Tamilagam.

 

6. Agananuru (or Neduntogai): It also gives more details about Ariyar. Ariyars capture elephants by the use of trained female elephants. A public woman takes a vow that she would chain her hero with her hair just as the Ariyar make the wild elephant domesticated with the she-elephant. Mullaippattu throws light on their employment by the kings of Tamilagam to train elephants.

 

6.1. In another poem, a harlot wishes her bangles may be broken just like the army of Ariyars, which was defeated by the Kurumba bowmen who fought under the Cholas, with their shower of arrows, victorious spears and the black buckler. Here, also the names of the defeated Ariyars are not given, but it is mentioned that they were defeated at Vallam (Tanjore).

 

6.2. Paranar3 in his poem eulogises Senguttuvan that he attacked the Aryar so as to make them scream, carved his emblem bow on the very famous mountain and chained the ferocious Kings. Here one can notice that the name of the mountain is not specified and it is mentioned in singular. As 'Himalayas' are always mentioned in plural to denote a chain of mountains, a doubt arises as to whether the poet actually alludes to the 'Himalayaslace' or to a certain very famous, ancient and well grown mountain situated north of Tamizhagam in those days.

 

6.3. Agam.386 narrates how an Ariya wrestler was defeated by one Panan. The Ariya wrestler was known as Ariya Porunan and Panan was another wrestler, whose state was in the north of Tamizgagam (Agam.325). Panan wrestled with Ariya Porunan and crushed his shoulders and arms, the sight of which made Kanaiyan, the commander of Chera army, feel ashamed.

6.5. So, according to Agananuru, Ariyar were

 

  the people who captured and trained elephants,

  who got defeated by the Cholas at Vallam,

  who were the Kings of the north, conquered and chained by Senguttuvan and

  who were in possession of a mountain where gold was available.

 

As there was a wrestler known as Ariya Porunan, the name should imply either that he was an Ariya or he came from the north. But, it should be noted that Panan, who defeated Ariya Porunan and came from a state situated north of Tamizhagam, was not given the prefix of Ariya. Therefore, it is evident that there were Ariya wrestlers, just like Ariya jugglers, tumblers or rope dancers, elephant trainers and trainers in Tamizhagam.

7. Purananuru: In one poem4, Kovur Kizhar, a Tamil poet, describes how the kings of north were afraid of Cholan Naklankilli that they were spending their nights without sleep. Marudanila Naganar, another poet5 describes how Pandiyan Kudakartattutunjiya Maran Vazhudi was having a chariot to wage a fierce war to kill the kings of north (vadapula mannar). Actually, the poet eulogises Maran Vazhudi who is said to have caused northern kings to fade. But, particular given about the names of such northern kings or countries and the place or places where he defeated them in the battles are not at all given. There is a mention6 of a type of a sandal paste of northern mountain (vadakundrattuchandanam), Agananuru also refers to this7. But here also, the name of the northern mountain is not mentioned. Thre important point to be noted is, though the expressions vadapulattarasar, vadapulamannar and vadakundram are used to denote the kings of the north and northern mountain, the prefix Ariyar is conspicuously missing. Therefore, it is very evident that there were northern kings and northern mountains other than Ariya kings of north and northern mountain of Ariyar.

 

8. Non-Tamilian people of North: In the case of non-Tamilian people, specific names have been mentioned like Kosar8, Moriyar9, Nandar10, Tondaiyar11, and Vadugar12. Kosars belonged to Tulu country and they were living south of the Vindhya and near the shores of western ocean. Nandar and Moriyar are no others but the Nandas and Mauryas of north lace>Indialace>. Tondaiyars were found in the forests of Vengadam hills where elephants were abundant. So they went on expeditions, captured, trained and formed them into a brigade. The trained elephants brought firewood to the Rishis and they ate the food of their country only. From this, we can infer that Tondaiyars were having similar vocation like Ariyars, as far as elephants are concerned. Vadugar were having their lands beyond Vengadam and they spoke a different language. Another point to be noted is that at one place (Puram. 378), the Vadugars are denoted as vada vadugar. The term vadugar connotes that they were from the north and hence the expression vada vadugar is very significant, as it actually denotes northern group of northerners. This can be compared with the expression vada Ariyar and vadavariyar denoting northern Ariyar, but such expressions are found in Silappathikaram and not in the Sangam literature taken for discussion. But the important point to be noted is the usage of Ariyar, while the word Ariyar is generally used to denote the people of north or the kings of north, the above mentioned words Kosar, Nandar, Moriyar, Tondaiyar and Vadugar are used to denote only particular groups of people who lived in the north of Tamizhagam.

 

9. Arya and Ariya suffixes and prefixs: Epigraphic, numismatic and literary evidences are abundant to show that the Sathavahanas were ruling in the north of Tamizhagam with their intruding territories extended up to Caddalore. The important point which should be mentioned here is that the Arya endings in the names of the donees are found only in the grants coming from the territory immediately south of river 'Krishna' (The Kondamudi, the Mayadavolu, the Hira Hadagalli, the Kanteru Nandivarman I and the Mattapad grants). Arya (venerable) as honorific prefix to the names of Buddhist and Jain teachers and saints occurs in inscriptions all over 'India'. Indeed the Tamil epic Manumekhalai mentions Buddha as Ariyan (25-6). Arya as an honorific title is found in the Hathigumpa inscription of Kharavela13. Arya as initial part of personal names occur in Junnar inscription inscription14 (Ayama), and in the Nagarjunakonda inscription15 (Ayakotosiri) and Ayasiri, names of royal ladies. Aryadeva is the name of the celebrated disciple16 of Nagarjuna (3rd cent. CE), who spent a greater part of his life in Andhradesha. But the earliest inscription to exhibit names with Arya-ending is the Kondamudi grant of Jayavarman (3rd cent.CE), where all doinees have names ending with aja, as also found in the same manner in the Mayadavola and Mattapad grants.

 

9.1. Aja is another form of Prakrit Arya, Sanskrit Arya and Tamil Ayya, Iyya, Iyer and Ariyar. Ariyar or Ariya started as an honorific prefix anmd become a name-ending much the same way as sri found in many inscriptions. And we can find the same trend in Tamil literature, as in Ariya Annal (Head or chiuef of Ariya Kings), Ariya Porunan (Arya wrestler), Ariya Arasan Bragadattan17 (Ariya king named Bragadattan) and Ariya Arasan Yazh Brahmadattan18 (Ariya king poet Brahmadattan). The word Ayyar or Iyer is found in many places in ancient Tamil literature including Tolkappiyam19, which is considered as the oldest extant Tamil work. It is used to represent a teacher, brother, priest, saint, andanan (Brahmana), superior, master or king, with veneration.

 

10. Ariake: A reference to Periplus Ariaca and Ptolemys Ariake has to be made, as it has direct bearing on the discussion of Ariyar of the ancient Tamil literature. About the name Ariaca of the Periplus, W. H. Scoff opines: the word in the text is very uncertain. Lassen thinks that the name Sanskrit Latica (pronounced Larica) and included  the land on both sides of the gulf of Cambay20. Ptolemy (c.140 CE) calls the first province of Tamil country going down from the north as Lymyrice or Dymirike. He and the author of Periplus use it only as the name of the Chera territory. The country north of it was to them Ariake, belongoing to the Aryas, in the restricted sense of Marathas. Taking the other forms Ariake Sadinon and Ariake of the Pirates, they could easily have made out that Ariake referred to the country later known as  the Maharastra, then ruled over by the Satavahana kings of the Andhra dynasty21. Therefore, it is evident that Ariake or Aricca denotes Akam or the country of Ariyar who were ruling or living immediately north of Dymirike or Tamizagam.

 

11. Himalayas of Ariyar: We have seen how some Tamil kings marched towards the Himalayas to bring stones or to defeat the kings in between the Himalayas and Kumari, and inscribed their royal emblems on it. Already it has been pointed out that the poets considered Himalayaslace as single Mountain Type. From various expressions like very famous, ancient and well grown mountain (Agam.396), tall mountain with gold (Agam.398), a big stone (Puram.171) and a tall mountain (Puram.61), even without naming the mountain, it is evident that the poets coisidered Imaiyam or Imayam was a single mountain situated north of Tamizhagam. Imam means snow, that is why, the 'Himalayas' are called so. But, in the Tamil literature, wherever the name Imayam is not mentioned, it is also not mentioned that the tall, ancient, very famous and stony mountain with gold is covered with snow. Everybody knows that 'Himalayas' are indeed very famous, ancient and several series of more or less parallel or converging ranges. Also the poets have not given the details how the kings climbed up the Himalayas, cut the required stone, brought it down, etc., except that he washed it in the waters of Ganges. Therefore, it is evident that whenever the name Imayam is not mentioned, we have to take it as a mountain that was situated in the north of Tamizhagam.

 

12. Non-Tamil kings of north: The Hathigumpha inscription of Kharavela, a king of Kalinga and a contemporary of the third or fifth king of the Satavahana line, is the only epigraphic reference to the kingdoms of the Tamil country after the Asoka inscription. Kharavela ruled Kalinga in the first half of the second century BCE and in the eleventh year of hid reign (c.155 BCE), he is said to have destroyed a confederacy of Tamil states Tramiradesa sanghatanam [(T(r)mira, Damira or Tamila] which was 113 years old (113+17) at the time and had been a source of danger22. The Satavahanas were ruling, starting with the first king Simukha around 230 BCE, in the north of Tamizhagam with the lineage of Kanha (.207-189 BCE), Sri Satakarni I, Satakarni II (c.166), Hala (c. 20-24 CE), Sri Yajna Satakarni (c.170-199) and others. Before that, the Asokan empire was extending up to Sravanabelagola covering the areas of the Cholas. He died in 232 BCE and his successor Brihadratha was killed by Pushyamitra Sunga in 185 BCE. The Sunga dynasty continued up to 73 BCE. Therefore, during the reign of these kings of north, no Tamil king could have crossed over to 'Ganges' or 'Himalayas' without encountering them. If the Tamil kings would have actually defeated or conquered the kings of north, as mentioned in the Tamil literature, definitely, there would be some cross reference in their description. But, unfortunately no such reference has been pointed out so far. Moreover, a careful study of ancient Tamil literature clearly shows that the geography of Tamizhagam is restricted between Vengadam in the north and Kumari in the south. This has been repeatedly mentioned by the poets and the later commentators. Therefore, if any Tamil king had conquered or defeated any Aryan king or king or north, he might have defeated an Andhra king of his time.

 

13. Ariyar denotes what? From  the foregoing discussion about the word Ariyar and its forms mentioned in the ancient Tamil literature, it is evident that they would come under the following categories:

 

Ariyar are

1.    the people who were living immediately north of Tamizhagam or Vengadam.

2.    the kings who were ruling immediately north of Tamizhagam or Vengadam.

3.    the jugglers, tumblers, rope-dancers or acrobats of Tamizhagam.

4.    the Rishis or saints of northern mountain of Tamizhagam or 'Himalayas'.

5.    the elephant captors and / or trainers.

6.    the groups or kings who waged wars against Tamil kings or chiefs coming from north.

7.    ]the honorific title Ariya was used to respect certain professionals like wresrtlers, poets or king-cum-poets of Tamizhagam.

 

14. Were the Ariyar foreigners? A reference has already been made about non-Tamil people coming from the north of Tamizhagam, who were specifically mentioned as Kosar, Moriyar, Nandar, Tondaiyar and Vadugar. There have been many specific references to Romans and Greeks collectively called as yavanar by the Tamilians. Their habits, dress, behaviour etc., are clearly described and explained to show that they were foreigners. The word milechar is specifically found in Mullaippattu; Within the elegant well-lit inner apartment, adorned with tiger-chains of skilled workmanship, well clad dumb milechas (who make themselves understood by signs) attend the king, who spends night absorbed in thought of (coming) battle. The mention about the employment of milechas as bodyguards is very significant, because unless the king had so much of confidence about his safety, he would not have appointed the foreigners as his bodyguards. And if the Ariyar mentioned were actually milechas or foreigners, they would have been described and treated differently by the Tamil poets. Though the poets repeatedly mention that the boundaries of this land were Himalayas in the north, Kumari in the south, Kuna kadal (eastern ocean), in the east and Kuda kadal (western ocean) in the west and that Ariyar were the people or kings of the north of Tamizhagam, nowhere they have been mentioned that they were foreigners and that they came from outside the boundaries enumerated by them. Except in the references about the encounters between them and Tamilian Kings or chiefs, in all other places, they were treated as the people of Tamizhagam. Even in the case of battles among the Tamil kings, chieftains and particularly, Chera, Chola and Pandyas, elaborate details have been given as to how they fought with each other, killed others, destroyed the lands and towns, captured cattle, men and women, collected their booty, seized the crowns and gold (which in turn to be given to the pots) etc. But, surprisingly such details of after-battle exploits and booties are not given in the case of defeat of Ariyar. So it is not known why and how they were spared even after their defeat. Many cases of Sati committed by the wives of killed Tamililan kings and chieftains have been specifically mentioned. Even Imayavaramban Nedunjeraladhan fought a war with the contemporary Chola king, in which both the monarchs lost their lives and their queens performed sati. But, surprisingly, there are no mentions of killing of Ariyar kings and of performing of sati by their queens. Therefore, really, it is very intriguing as to why and how such benevolent and lenient treatment was given to the defeated, conquered and captured Ariyan kings by the Tamil poets and kings. In any case, it is evident that the Ariyar were not foreigners.

 

15. Conclusion: In the study of ancient Tamil literature, with a view to find out the meaning and position of Ariyar as mentioned in their context, it has been pointed out that Ariyar were the people or kings of north of Tamizhagam and also of Tamizghagam considering the various descriptions of them. Literary evidences of ancient Tamizhagam with other epigraphic, numismatic and literary evidences of contemporary kings of Maurya, Kalinga and Satavahana show that the exploits of Tamil kings were perhaps restricted to the boundaries of the ancient Tamizhagam and the defeat of Ariya or northern king or kings refers to the defeat of Andhra king or kings. The word Ariya was also used as an honorific title to certain professionals, besides the generic usage to denote the people of the land with the boundaries of 'Himalaya'. As the names Kosar, Nandar, Moriar, Tondaiyar and Vadugar have been used to indicate individual groups of north, and the name Ariya is used to denote the people or kings who were living or ruling immediately in the north of Tamizhagam, it is very evident that no racial connotation was given to ariyar by the ancient Tamils.

 

Notes and References

 

 

  1. K. A. Nilakanta Sastri, A History of South India, Oxford University Press, Third edition, Madras, p.115. He holds that the Sangam literature is that which belongs to first three or four centuries A. D,.

P. T. Srinivasa Iyengar, History of Tamils, Madras, 1929, p.225. He opines that it is absurd to include the two epics in the Sangam literature,

V. Ramachandra Diksh*tar, Studies in Tamil literature and History, Luzac & Co., London, 1930, p.26 says that the two epics may be included in the list of Sangam literature.

 

  1.  P. T. Srinivasa Iyengar, op.cit., p.503.

  1. Agananuru 396: 16-18.

  1. Purananuru 31.

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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2006 at 10:21

Halfway down i got a headache reading that post and just gave up

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2006 at 11:49
I couldn't finish it either: it's too long and detailed and with all those  dumb faces everywhere, it's just imposible to read.

I hate copy and paste and the people who practice it. It denotes lack of originality and personal opinion - and often makes topics impossible to deal with.

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Apr-2006 at 12:56
That's a bit harsh, but without any opinion or critique such articles are low in discussional value.
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2006 at 05:00

Dear friends,

For your convenience, I have removed the unwanted characters etc.

Yes, I copied and pasted my paper for convenience, but that does not mean "lack of originality and personal opinion" as opined by Maju.

Now Maju can deal and decide the topic.

About ZAgros' comment, "That's a bit harsh, but without any opinion or critique such articles are low in discussional value", I would like to say let him now discuss or debate to decide the value.

Sincerely yours,

K. V. Ramakrishna Rao.

 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Apr-2006 at 05:16
I still see all the > characters. It's the same.

Sorry about the criticism but when you see a new member C&P you think those things...

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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 20:34
As very often, the Aryan-Dravidian issue is raised (Recent postings - Indian skin colour?, The Brahmins of Europe etc), I would like to continue the debate here.
 
Max Mueller "discovered" Aryans and disowned as pointed out. The western scholars invented "Aryans" and "Dravidians" in Indian context, just to divide the society and as well as create confusion among the historians.
 
But, in the ancient Tamil literature, or popularly known as "Sangam literature", is authored by the Tamils or "Dravidians".
 
But, they never called them "Dravidians", even they knew "Aryans"!
 


Edited by K. V. Ramakrishna Rao - 02-Mar-2007 at 20:37
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  Quote dass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 14:49
look i think the aryans didn't even invade proper day india or atleast most of what is india today, maybe only the extreme north. aryans came from western asia and Iran became there center. only the areas today known as Pakistan, Kashmir and punjab were probably invaded by aryans.
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  Quote dass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 14:50
yes the skin colour proves that most of india was not effected by the aryan invasion, and most of indians even today have a lot of dravidian blood.
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 19:15

Mr. Dass, are you from India?

How the hypotheses and theories of "skin colour", "blood" etc., still hold good. I read long back that they were consigned to dustbins as "pseudo-scientific".
 
I would be more enlightened, if you could clarify.
 
Thank you.
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  Quote dass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 00:28
skin colour and facial structure is very important in telling where the people belong to, i am from north india, Himachal pardesh which is near kashmir and people confuse me of being afghani or iranian, now i am not saying all of my family member look iranian or afghan but here in the north we have a lot fair skinned people with facial structure that resemble iranian people. the more south you go in india more dravidian facial structure and skin colour prevails.
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 08:36
Happy to find an Indian!
 
How do you rate me by looking at my photo?
 
Am I an "Aryan" or "Dravidian"?
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  Quote dass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 10:18
you have certian features that i can tell you are Dravidian related and thats why i asked you if your from south india
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2007 at 19:38

I have already responded in Aryan problem" and the same would be applicable here.

History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote ASHWINKUMARIYER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 03:44
Dear Shri Rao,
 
I am no researcher or a prefessional as you are, but an amateur (or probably hobbyist) history buff. I base most of my conclusions on assumtions made from other's research conclusions and religious scriptures (where I include the Sangam literature). My interest is also to find religious and cultural roots rather to study history for the sake of studying it.
 
I give below my understanding on the Aryan/Dravidian issue and correct if I am wrong:
 
1) India has been a country where no one can just invade in a day or two. People attracted by the country's richness blend with it and stay back. This include early persians, greeks and even the later mughals. Applying the same theory to the Aryan/Dravidian issue, it can be well assumed that there were no "invasions" as propagated by british historians, but there have been continous settlements from the day of origin till the Europeans stepped in. The cultures, habitat and other factors or so much entwined that even an individual DNA study on the entire population wouldnt reveal the origin of the person (probably might only show what is the dominant gene). The mix up was both ways and not unilateral.
 
2) I find a little support for my proposed assumption of fusion of cultures from two little examples. a) There are 12 samsakaras in any hindu marriage and out of 12 atleast 6-7 important samskaras are performed in one way or other all over India immaterial of caste/creed/race. Most important of them are Saptapadi and Mangalya Dharanam. However Mangalya Dharanam does not find a place in any of the Vedic Scriptures though the source of Marriage ritual is Soma-Surya wedding from the Rg Veda. I assume Mangalya Dharanam should have been ritual that is adopted from the then southern inhabitants. I find the mention of Thali (Mangalya Sutra) twice in Purananooru alone. This is the influence of Southern Culture Over the northern. b) On the other way around, we can take the example of language. The oldest recorded book in Tamil is THOLKAPPIYAM whose author is THOLKAPPIYAR. We call him so, because he authored the oldest gramattical treatise. But his real name was "Trikunathmagni", a chaste sanskrit name. This is the north's influnce on south. Likewise we can find out so many things to disprove the assumtion that there was any unilateral settlement. I still feel India was more heterogenous (par distinction) than what it is now. in the ancient times.
 
3) Idol worship - None of the Vedic (Samhitha) Scriptures talk about Idol worship nor have I ever known of any Epic Gods born as humans such as Rama & Krishna visiting a temple. The first occurance of idols I see in the Varaha Purana and later in the Agama Shastra. However, idol worship was prevalent during the Indus Valley days and especially the mother goddes worship (Shaktha). So, the blend was very clear. The later vedic worship clearly blended with the pre-existing worshipping methods. Even the sangam literature starts by saying it was presided by Lord Shiva himself and seconded by Kumara.
 
I conclude to say, it must be extremely difficult or probably impossible to clearly depict where the origin of current culture was, especially to say where the Aryans/Dravidians or other early Indian inhabitants come from.
 
"Uttaram Yat samudrasya
HImadreshchaiva Dakshinam
Varsham Tad Bharatham nama
Bharathiyaha Ithi Santhathihi" - Vishnu Purana
 
"The land above oceans
and below the HImalayas
Is known to be Bhartha
and the inhabitants are Bhrathiya" - Vishnu Purana
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 09:49
About "Tali", kindly refer to my paper posted.
 
In the Sangam literature, there has been close correlation between the Shodasa samskaras and the practices followed, which I have shown in another paper.
 
In Sangam literature, there is no mention of "Siva" or "Kumara" as claimed by you. However, I would be grateful, if you could provide any reference.
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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 18:06

i went to wikepedia and they said that sangam literature still is a myth meaning no 100% proof that it ever existed.

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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 19:42

Really, then all our Indian historians, at least the South Indian historians must be liars!

Do not you think that you are disrespecting such historians?

What you feel about the Tamil people, who have been posesessing such literature?

Anyway, if you have more evidence with you to prove that the Sangam literature is"myth" i.e, "no 100% proof that it never existed", you are welcome.

After all, we have to discuss and debate.

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  Quote Kashmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 19:50
^ look i didn't come up with this, its wikepeida and encyclopedia that are stating this.
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  Quote ASHWINKUMARIYER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 00:55
Dear Shri Rao,
 
Your paper on Tali is excellent and informative. Thanks for posting it.
 
On the relationships between Shodasa Samskaras and Sangam literature, you are right. Infact establishing such relationships and certain where we can also show the influence of the south over the north (like Tali, idol worship and caste system) it is possible to easily disprove the "aryan invasion" theory.
 
On Shiva and Kumara in the sangam literature, my connotation was not a very deep one. I meant "Iraiyanar" mentioned in the sangam literature as Shiva and Kumara who is mentioned in all the three sangam literatures. I give below a commentary by Dr. Jayabharathi of Malaysia on the names of Vedic (So called Aryan) gods being mentioned in Sangam Literature. The commentary is also quite basic. If in depth commentaries are necessary I can post them for you.
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Our proto-historical legends say that there was already a Madurai called Then Madurai (Southern Madurai). This was situated in the land of Kumari, by the river called Kanni. The first academy/library called Sangam was established here. The first scholar to preside over that first Sangam or Thalai Sangam was iRaiyanaar. He is identified with "Thiripuram eriththa virisadaik KadavuL" The patrons were, hereditarily, the Pandiyan kings. This, then, was the earliest Madurai.

After a cataclysm, the capital shifted to a place called Kabaadapuram, by the river Kumari. This city was south of the present Kumari Cape. It is mentioned in the Raamaayana of Vaalmiiki. Here was the Second Sangam or Idai Sangam and was thought to be presided by Murugak KadavuL. Murugan in this context is called "KunRam eRintha KumaravEL". Incidentally, Krishna has also presided over this Second Sangam. He is known by the name of "Thuvaraik KOmaan". The TholkAppiyam is the only remaining work belonging to this time.

After another debacle, the capital was shifted to the present Madurai. Here was the Third Sangam or Kadai Sangam. The famouse "ThiruviLaiyaadal" by iRaiyanaar with Tharumi and Nakkeerar happened in this period. The literary compilations that go by the name of Ettuththogai and Paththuppaattu belong to this Sangam. Due to some unclear circumstances, this Sangam came to an end.

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