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The Aryan Problem

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AlokaParyetra View Drop Down
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  Quote AlokaParyetra Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Aryan Problem
    Posted: 07-Aug-2007 at 11:11
I think there is a lot of confusion with this whole "Tamils in Kashmir" thing.

The first person to bring it up was troll who promptly left after starting the thread. And he wasn't talking about modern Tamils. What he asked was if the IVC people were Tamil. Somehow, that got transformed into "Tamils ruled Kashmir."

No one here has ever stated that Tamils speakers, as we identify them today, ruled the part of land that is now called Kashmir.

What Nachiappan is saying is that Indians ruled kashmir, and that that's as far as you need to go. He's not saying that Tamils ruled kashmir, but rather that there is no need to further divide Indians into smaller groups (like Tamils, which is where the term comes into play on his side).

What Rao is saying is that there might have been two Ashokas in history, one of which ruled over Kashmir. He too is not talking about Tamil rule, but a person called Ashoka (who is not Tamil) who might have existed around the same time as Ashoka Maurya.

I think somehow, these three ideas (the IVC, Nachiappan, and two Ashokas) got confused and merged, and now people think they are arguing that Tamils ruled Kashmir.
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  Quote betaab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2007 at 11:56
actually what division are u talking about^ the people of india are already divided because of different cultures and tradtions and even looks.
 
all of india  is more diverse then Europe. Europe is not one land with one people. Same with india. its not one land with with one people. People need to understand their differences.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2007 at 07:18
Very trues, but intermixing and moving has been more common than in Europe. The Abassis are a tribe that live near the Kashmir, but are originally Rajputs.
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  Quote K. V. Ramakrishna Rao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Sep-2007 at 04:19
I find that my original posting of my paper has been disturbed.
 
Because of the "Aryan-Dravidian" discussion, I just happned to see the posting.
 
I do not know how it happened?
History is not what was written or is written, but it is actually what had happened in the past.
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 02:30
Aryan - Dravidian divide is a myth.

Latest studies in Archaeology,Genetics & Archaeo-astronomy and even linguistics is proving this.
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2010 at 07:22
link to the results of latest genetical studies of India & Asia

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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2010 at 11:31
 i personally dont beleive there was mass invasion of aryans, espeically what is mainland india today, maybe northern pakistan/kashmir areas were invaded, but not mainland india of today.
 
However that said, i beleive there was a cultural invasion of aryans in to india. Indians all through out there history have been really adaptive of other cultures, recent examples of this is how they have adapted many things from the muslim cultures and from the british. I believe they cleary adapted the aryan religions and cultures and mixed it with their own cultures, this is how hinduism was born.
 
Rig Veda clearly was compiled somewhere in central asia, afghanistan or northern pakistan of today. The best example of this is the drink called "SOMA" in the Rig Veda Aryans are known to drink that all the time and SOMA is only found in central asia, afghanistan and northern pakistan, its not found in India at all even Punjab
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2010 at 00:48
Originally posted by balochii

 i personally dont beleive there was mass invasion of aryans, espeically what is mainland india today, maybe northern pakistan/kashmir areas were invaded, but not mainland india of today.
 
However that said, i beleive there was a cultural invasion of aryans in to india. Indians all through out there history have been really adaptive of other cultures, recent examples of this is how they have adapted many things from the muslim cultures and from the british. I believe they cleary adapted the aryan religions and cultures and mixed it with their own cultures, this is how hinduism was born.
 
Rig Veda clearly was compiled somewhere in central asia, afghanistan or northern pakistan of today. The best example of this is the drink called "SOMA" in the Rig Veda Aryans are known to drink that all the time and SOMA is only found in central asia, afghanistan and northern pakistan, its not found in India at all even Punjab
Your belief about invasion /migration of aryans is not going to make any difference.
There was no invasion at all let it be mass or trickle infilteration.Genetics,Archaeology,Archaeoastronomy and linguistuics is against AIT or AMT.Cultural adaptation during British regime is just a concept and not truth.Usage of English in India is mainly seen in Metros only majority of Indian population is semi urban and rural speak colocial languages only and they are very traditional.

Regarding soma drinking and soma worship.Rigveda itself is saying that Aryavarta and Saraswati banks where Rigveda was composed doesnt have Soma and,Soma and "Agni"was brought to them by "Syena" a bird of prey.It is in the shape of this bird of prey that Fire altars for Agnicatyana is built.So your claim that Rigveda was written at some where other than India  doesnt stand.
And in an earlier tread Pakistani shield  posted a link to " Gundestrup karret" a seal with a Celtic god dating back to 100BC and this is exactly similar to the Pashupati idol of Harappa dating back to 3000BC.This clearly indicates the direction of flow of language and cultures over times.
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2010 at 00:54
Apart from that many verses in rigveda speaks about a long presence of Aryans and their forefathers on the banks of Nadimata Saraswati.
It also speaks of "Dasarajna" battle of ten kings  in which Sudas the Puru king  of Bharatha clan defeated  10 kings of both arya and dasyu clans and many of them were forced to  migrate large distances towards the west of Indus showing a westward migration.
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2010 at 00:57

Fire Altar in the shape of bird of prey "Syena"

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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2010 at 01:00

Agnicayana(1975, Panjal,Kerala) being performed of  " Syena" vedi (fire altar


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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2010 at 09:03
the so called "Saraswati" river is not even a proven river, its mainly believed by hindu nationalistics as the real "Saraswati", none of the international scientists have ever confirmed that to be the real Sarwaswati. There is an argument that Saraswati lies in afghanistan
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2010 at 05:55
Originally posted by balochii

the so called "Saraswati" river is not even a proven river, its mainly believed by hindu nationalistics as the real "Saraswati", none of the international scientists have ever confirmed that to be the real Sarwaswati. There is an argument that Saraswati lies in afghanistan
Dont distort facts.
Rigvedic Saraswati cannot be any other river other than Gaggar Hakra.This is because the Rigvedic hymn 10.75, Verses 5 and 6, clearly place the Saraswati between the Yamuna and the Sutlej. Several western and Indian scholars have identified the Saraswati with the Harakhvati or the present‑day Helmand river of Afghanistan. This identification is untenable because the Saraswati in the Rigveda is described as originating in the mountains and debouching into the ocean whereas the Helmand debouches into a lake. Besides, there are no rivers named as Yamuna and Sutlej in Afghanistan.

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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2010 at 05:58

 Since the time of the composition of the Rigveda, over four thousand years ago, the Saraswati has been venerated by the Hindus as one of their holiest rivers; indeed in the Rigveda it was held as the holiest river. Since 1874 a number of geographers, geologists and archaeologists have identified this river with the dry bed of a large stream known as the Ghaggar in Punjab, Haryana and Rajasthan, and as Hakra, Sotra, Sagara, Wahind, Raini, Mihran and Nara (Narra) in Pakistan (Anonymous 1874; Nearchus 1875; R. D. Oldham 1887; C. F. Oldham 1893; Stein 1917; Wilhelmy 1969; Misra 1984; Yash Pal et al. 1984). The scholar, who first associated the Saraswati with the Indus Civilization, was the veteran explorer, Sir Aurel Stein. In the winter of 1941‑42 Stein explored the Ghaggar‑Hakra valley in the then Princely States of Bikaner and Bahawaipur and discovered some fifty protohistoric, including Indus, sites (Stein 1942). 

After Independence a number of archaeologists like A. Ghosh, Katy Frenchman, J. P. Joshi, M. N. Deshpande, K. N. Dikshit, R. S. Bisht, B. M. Pande, and others of the Archaeological Survey of India; Suraj Bhan of Kurukshetra University; R. N. Mehta, K. T. M. Hegde, V. H. Sonawane, K. K. Bhan, and others of M.S. University of Baroda; and archaeologists of the Punjab, Haryana and Gujarat State Archaeology Departments in India; and M. R. Mughal and Louis Flam in Pakistan, among others, have discovered a very large number of Indus sites. Today over 1500 sites of the Indus Civilization are known in India and Pakistan. Of these, about two‑thirds are located along the banks of the Saraswati or Ghaggar‑Hakra river. In the Cholistan desert of Pakistan alone Mughal (1992) has discovered over 300 sites. As against this, less than fifty sites are located on the Indus river after which the Civilization is named. It is, therefore, no surprise that S. P. Gupta (1996) thought it proper to rename the civilization as the Indus‑Saraswati Civilization.
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2010 at 06:01
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2010 at 12:20
^ why dont you post pics of these so called hundreds of sites, i am not denying there might be sites, but are they of the same period as indus valley, are they same civilization? i have never seen any pictures or any conclusive studies of the Ghagar-kakra sites. The source of info that comes through is through hindu nationlistics
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2010 at 12:45
Balochii, enough.  Provide sources for your statements or let it go.  Don't play let's see how far we can push him, with me, you won't like the results.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Oct-2010 at 23:16
Thank You redclay for coming in...

@balochi I have already posted the photographs & map showing major Saraswati sites in an earlier thread that too in a debate with you.If you want the photograph of saraswati the satellite image of saraswati is given in the site linked by me.

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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 00:26
^ i need the time period of these sites, if you can provide reliable sources dating these sites to the indus/harrapan period, perhaps i will take you more seriously from there
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  Quote ranjithvnambiar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Oct-2010 at 02:19
Originally posted by balochii

^ i need the time period of these sites, if you can provide reliable sources dating these sites to the indus/harrapan period, perhaps i will take you more seriously from there

You are not a judge here and it is you who needs to provide proofs for your claims instead of escaping by giving some flimsy reasons and questioning the authenticity of the proofs provided here.
Throughout the debates with you on different topics, I havent even once seen you providing any proof to substantiate your claims or beliefs
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