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How did the original IEs look like?

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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How did the original IEs look like?
    Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 07:26
Originally posted by Maju

Originally posted by aeon

Originally posted by Maju

In fact I must say that this type:

...is very much Western native. I can spot a dozen like him just walking around for a while. If I had to bet his genetics (something always randomized and somehow unpredictable), I'd say R1b and H.

There is no way for him to be R1b and H, since he's a pure-bred Russian.



Maybe not. But he doesn't look the typical Russian - in my humble opinion.

I guess u haven't seen many russians...this guy has a strong russian ''string''...i certainly couldn't mix him up with a swede or irish or whatever...that face is undoubtedly russian.

PS:That ritual involving jumping over the fire is still present in  serbia, too



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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 09:08

Originally posted by Socrates

PS:That ritual involving jumping over the fire is still present in  serbia, too?O

Is it called Prevelj Socrates.

 

"When Serbians Dance"

by Dennis Boxell

RITUAL DANCES 

Rituals give us an insight into how dance was an inseparable part of the peoples lives. They date back to a time when dancing was not only a question of social events and festivals, but was an expression of prayer and supernatural rite.  Through the dance, a man could heal the sick, summon and dispel the forces of nature, bless the fields and the community, and bestow good fortune on himself and others.  Ritual dances might be either the main expression of the occasion or simply an integral part.  Sometimes they were performed by secret societies or special clubs of boys or girls who had banded together specifically for these rituals.  Many of these rituals still survive today, either in original or changed form.

PREVELJ

In several Serbian villages on the Mlava River, Prevelj was a ritual-dance enacted around a fire for the peace of dead souls.  A large bonfire was built and each family who had had a recent death, would carry a log to this fire in dedication to their dead relative.  The women were not usually allowed to be present at this event, but sometimes one woman would steal toward the fire and touch it with her spindle as a symbolic gesture.  The dancing around the fire would get under way as soon as the musicians had first played a somber piece to which there was no dancing.  The villagers would stand around the fire holding on to each other by their waistbands, while the mourners who did not dance, held lighted candles.  The kolovodja, or leader of the kolo, held a long rod or staff in his right hand, and as soon as the fire died down, would call out to the line of dancers to jump over the fire.  Those who wouldnt jump might be admonished by means of his large staff.  Today the custom of jumping over the fire is largely dying out, through dancing around bonfires is still popular.

http://www.dennisboxell.com/Folklore%20Essays.htm

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  Quote wefone90 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 09:12

Hey guys, no offend but what about her
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 09:49
Jumping over fire and simmilar fire rituals are virtually universal, aren't they.

I guess u haven't seen many russians...this guy has a strong russian ''string''...i certainly couldn't mix him up with a swede or irish or whatever...that face is undoubtedly russian.


Sure that Russians have a lot more variablity that I can imagine, still I think the average Russian tends to be more brachicepahllic... I may be wrong though.

Hey guys, no offend but what about her


She's just an individual (very pretty by the way) and she doesn't have any very marked type. I'd say NW Europe.

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  Quote dorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 10:37
I haven't understand...What do you mean by using the term "purebred Russian"? A Russian whose recent ancestors are Russians? Because I don't think that the admixture of the Slavs into the russian gene pool some centuries ago, makes the Russians non-purebred. The appearance of someone can diversify significantly from the typical appearance of his nation, only if one of the parents, the grandparents or the great-grandparents etc (in general the latest ancestors) is of other origin,  because as the generations pass the "adscititious" features wipe out and get absorbed by the common fenotype.
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 10:48
The question is that you can't identify an ethnicity with a single person, who will always have a unique set that may or not be close to the average of his/her population. You need a good sample... and then maybe you can select which features (genetic, phenotypic, whatever) are more common, so you get a vague idea of the standarized type - which will normally be different from each individual. 

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  Quote yazzmode621 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 17:39

Personally, I think that the originial IE's look like today's mediterraneans.  They had a mixture of light skinned to olive skinned people with darker hair and dark eyes.  There were also people with lighter eyes/hair, but the majority had darker features.  I find it hard to believe that these people had Nordic features and somehow have intermarried with other races that their original nordic features are all but gone.  This is just b.s. Western(Nordic) propoganda just like how they say the ancient greeks, persians, and italians were nordic. 

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 20:32
Actually both Nordics and Mediterraneans were invaded equally. The peoples you see now are +/- who were there before the invasion - just that they now speak a different language and consider themselves IEs (write here the IE nation you wish). There was a time when Greeks didn't speak Greeks nor used the name Hellenic and there was a time when Danes spoke a language that had nothing to do with Germanic or any other IE and didn't considered themselves Danes or Germanic at all... but something else. Probably the change was much more that language and identity, also beliefs for instance were transformed in this process. 

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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Apr-2006 at 21:59

Originally posted by Maju

Jumping over fire and simmilar fire rituals are virtually universal, aren't they.

I agree Maju.Tamils also have fire-rituals and Tamil isn't an IE language.I guess these rituals have more to do with religion.Having said that,I won't be surprised if Hutsul,Serbian and Iranian fire-rituals have a common origin.

Danforths Firewalking and Religious Healing and Nabokovs Religion Against the Self are anthropological analyses of religious cultures that prominently feature spirit possession.  Danforth presents a religion called the Anastenaria that focus on the worship of the healing powers of Saint Constantine.  Nabokov presents the Tamil tradition based in the Tamilnadu region of southern India where individuals worship the healing powers of various Hindu goddesses.  In northern Greece, the traditions of the Anastenaria are upheld through dancing and firewalking, icon worship and spirit possession.  The Tamils are a mixed group consisting of mediums who channel the spirits of the goddesses, and victims who are possessed by demons.  It is in the context of these two traditions that I argue that spirit possession plays a major role in the religious lives of the modern societies of northern Greece and in southern India.

www.csus.edu/indiv/d/duboisj/GRCP/Proposals%20&%20Final%20Papers/PetersonFinal.doc -

I tried to find information on origin of Russian ethnicity.

 

Emergence of Russian ethnicity

Russians in traditional dress
Enlarge
Russians in traditional dress

Russians began to be recognized as a distinct ethnic group in the 15th century, when they were referred to as Muscovite Russians, during the consolidation of Muscovy Tsardom as a regional power. Between 12th and 16th century Russians known as Pomors migrated to Northern Russia and settled White Sea coasts. As a result of the migrations and Russian conquests (following liberation from the Mongol Golden Horde domination) during 15th-16th centuries Russians settled the Volga, Urals and Northern Caucasus regions. Between 17th and 19th centuries Russian migrants settled the vast sparsely inhabited areas in Siberia and Russian Far East. A major role in these territorial expansions and migrations was played by the Russian Cossacks.

According to most ethnologists ethnic Russians originated from the earlier Rus' people (East Slavs of Kievan Rus), and gradually evolved into a different ethnicity from the western Rus people who became the modern-day Belarusians and Ukrainians. Some ethnologists maintain that Russians were a distinct Slavic group even before the time of Kievan Rus. Others believe that the distinguishing feature of the Russians is not primarily their separation from Western Rus, but that ethnic Russians are a mix of East Slavic and non-Slavic (for example Finno-Ugric, Germanic, Baltic and Turkic) tribes. However, the origin of the Slavic peoples is itself a matter of on which there is no consensus.

http://www.answers.com/topic/russian   

 

 



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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 06:24

Originally posted by Apples n Oranges

Thanx for the pics Aeon.Would you mind showing [on a map if possible] which territories these Russians belong to.

No. 1 is Ilmen type in the Veliky Novgorod Region (No. 12 in the map) and further north

No. 2 is Valday type in the Tver Region and further south

No. 3 is Vologda type in the Vologda Region (No. 26 in the map) and further north and east

Originally posted by Apples n Oranges

Where would you say the Russian ethnicity originated and which are the genetic markers of Pure-Bred Russians.

The Russian ethnicity originated in Russia from the North Slavic tribes of Slovenes, Krivichians and Viatichians migrating from the present-day Poland from the 6th century AD on and assimilating pre-Slavic Baltic and Finnic tribes.

The most widespread genetic markers among pure-bred Russians are R1a1 (ca 50%), I (ca 15%), N (ca 15%) and R1b (ca 5%).

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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 06:40

Originally posted by Maju

Sure that Russians have a lot more variablity that I can imagine, still I think the average Russian tends to be more brachicepahllic... I may be wrong though.

You are wrong, he's nothing special. I'm afraid, you accept the German myths about dolichocephalic Teutons and brachycephalic Slavs too uncritically. Elena Dementieva would be a much better example of a very dolichocephalic Russian than Aleksey Serebryakov.

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 07:00
I know two Russian students both look NW Euro, blond/e with narrow (nordic) faces and round blue eyes. Like the picture above.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 07:13

In the Iranian version by jumping over the fire you take soul vitality from it and pass the ills of your soul to it.

 

Originally posted by Apples n Oranges

Originally posted by Socrates

PS:That ritual involving jumping over the fire is still present in  serbia, too?O

Is it called Prevelj Socrates.

"When Serbians Dance"

by Dennis Boxell

RITUAL DANCES 

Rituals give us an insight into how dance was an inseparable part of the peoples lives. They date back to a time when dancing was not only a question of social events and festivals, but was an expression of prayer and supernatural rite.  Through the dance, a man could heal the sick, summon and dispel the forces of nature, bless the fields and the community, and bestow good fortune on himself and others.  Ritual dances might be either the main expression of the occasion or simply an integral part.  Sometimes they were performed by secret societies or special clubs of boys or girls who had banded together specifically for these rituals.  Many of these rituals still survive today, either in original or changed form.

PREVELJ

In several Serbian villages on the Mlava River, Prevelj was a ritual-dance enacted around a fire for the peace of dead souls.  A large bonfire was built and each family who had had a recent death, would carry a log to this fire in dedication to their dead relative.  The women were not usually allowed to be present at this event, but sometimes one woman would steal toward the fire and touch it with her spindle as a symbolic gesture.  The dancing around the fire would get under way as soon as the musicians had first played a somber piece to which there was no dancing.  The villagers would stand around the fire holding on to each other by their waistbands, while the mourners who did not dance, held lighted candles.  The kolovodja, or leader of the kolo, held a long rod or staff in his right hand, and as soon as the fire died down, would call out to the line of dancers to jump over the fire.  Those who wouldnt jump might be admonished by means of his large staff.  Today the custom of jumping over the fire is largely dying out, through dancing around bonfires is still popular.

http://www.dennisboxell.com/Folklore%20Essays.htm

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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 07:24
Originally posted by Apples n Oranges

Originally posted by Socrates

PS:That ritual involving jumping over the fire is still present in  serbia, too?O

Is it called Prevelj Socrates.

"When Serbians Dance"

by Dennis Boxell

RITUAL DANCES 

Rituals give us an insight into how dance was an inseparable part of the peoples lives. They date back to a time when dancing was not only a question of social events and festivals, but was an expression of prayer and supernatural rite.  Through the dance, a man could heal the sick, summon and dispel the forces of nature, bless the fields and the community, and bestow good fortune on himself and others.  Ritual dances might be either the main expression of the occasion or simply an integral part.  Sometimes they were performed by secret societies or special clubs of boys or girls who had banded together specifically for these rituals.  Many of these rituals still survive today, either in original or changed form.

PREVELJ

In several Serbian villages on the Mlava River, Prevelj was a ritual-dance enacted around a fire for the peace of dead souls.  A large bonfire was built and each family who had had a recent death, would carry a log to this fire in dedication to their dead relative.  The women were not usually allowed to be present at this event, but sometimes one woman would steal toward the fire and touch it with her spindle as a symbolic gesture.  The dancing around the fire would get under way as soon as the musicians had first played a somber piece to which there was no dancing.  The villagers would stand around the fire holding on to each other by their waistbands, while the mourners who did not dance, held lighted candles.  The kolovodja, or leader of the kolo, held a long rod or staff in his right hand, and as soon as the fire died down, would call out to the line of dancers to jump over the fire.  Those who wouldnt jump might be admonished by means of his large staff.  Today the custom of jumping over the fire is largely dying out, through dancing around bonfires is still popular.

http://www.dennisboxell.com/Folklore%20Essays.htm

That's not the one i had in mind...The one i was refering to has something to do with the calender and it's done sometime in the beggining of the year...Nice pic btw...

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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 08:52

Originally posted by Zagros

I know two Russian students both look NW Euro, blond/e with narrow (nordic) faces and round blue eyes. Like the picture above.

NW Euro? North-Western Europeans look like this:

The Russian students you know look NE Euro.

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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 09:12

NW Europeans also look like this Aeon.

irish girls

I am not sure about the admixture of NE European blood in them.

PS:Thanx for the Map and genetic markers.

OK edited my post got NW and NE mixed up.



Edited by Apples n Oranges
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  Quote aeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 10:01
NW Euros who are blond and blue-eyed are newcomers from the East.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 14:45
I wouldn't say so much. I think a big deal of those genes are probably native too. But these features are not exclussively North Euro, they are well represented in other Caucasoid and even non-Caucasoid populations such as Australian Aborigines.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2006 at 14:52
Originally posted by aeon

Originally posted by Maju

Sure that Russians have a lot more variablity that I can imagine, still I think the average Russian tends to be more brachicepahllic... I may be wrong though.

You are wrong, he's nothing special. I'm afraid, you accept the German myths about dolichocephalic Teutons and brachycephalic Slavs too uncritically. 



You're right: Germans have a lot of brachicephalic types too, but these are rarer in Scandinavia, the West and the Mediterranean area. It seems to be a continental rather than coastal trait, what could be associated to early IE migrations. It's not someting that can be defined with political or ethnic borders: it's more a gradation that has some continental flavour and therefore could be associated to PC3, which is stronger in Eastern and Central Europe.

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  Quote Apples n Oranges Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2006 at 14:02

Originally posted by Maju

I wouldn't say so much. I think a big deal of those genes are probably native too. But these features are not exclussively North Euro, they are well represented in other Caucasoid and even non-Caucasoid populations such as Australian Aborigines.

Which features are we talking about Maju.I hope you are not mixing genes and physical features.Please elaborate I'm  confused.

 

 

 

 



Edited by Apples n Oranges
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