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Just how could Persia lose to Greece?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Just how could Persia lose to Greece?
    Posted: 14-Aug-2004 at 19:13
The story of Alexander seems to be something out of a western hollywood movie and i still find it hard to believe how a Macedonian-Greek boy (in his 20s?) could not only challenge but also conquer, defeat0 and control the might of the Persian Empire!

Can someone present the main reasons why the Persians where unable to crush the Greeks, despite having conquered the rest of the known world?

Why Alexander was able to defeat them so decievely despite being at a obvious disadvantage, in terms of troops and resources etc ?

please list them if you can

i would like to hear the Persian side, surely such a catastrophe in nations (or peoples) history must be remembered in every persian house - so how do they tell the story to their children etc? I really want to know the Persian side.


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  Quote fastspawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2004 at 20:33
i watched time commanders, the battle of guagemela, and their explanation was that although sorely outnunmbered, the greeks were well-trained and battle hardened.

The persians on the hand were made up of many merceneries and conscipt soldiers.

The battle they staged had the conscripts in front (they were slingers) and the front-line fell back as soon as the horses came crashing down. This had a domino effect whereby the mercs left the field, and the undisciplined persian elites were  drawn away from battle because of a bait--The enemy camp.

How true this is, i don't know.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 13:26
Persian empire declined when Artaxerxes III became king, I think he was the cruelest Persian king, it is said that he set fire to a large city in modern Lebanon and killed at least 40,000 of its citizens, anyway he died and his son Oarses succeeded the throne but he was killed soon, Artaxerxes had killed his own sons, brothers and cousins, so there was no other successor, finally with help of an Egyptian eunuch (Bagoas ?) Darius III who was probably one of decendents of Darius II ?? became the Persian king of kings, Darius III had faced many rivals for the throne, in this condition Alexander attacked Persia, Darius never could unite the Persians against him and at the end he was killed by one of his rivals.
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 14:22
There were many reasons.. 
Starting from the end of  persian-greek war in the beginnig of V centaury BC, Greeks have recognized their miltary system is superior to the Persian..this was confirmed during the civil wars in Persia - especially during the Cyrus the Younger expedition. Greek military supriopriority was still not enough to conquer the whole Persian Empire when the greeks was not united..It was also well known in Persopolis.. thus the principle of Persian rulers politics was to not admit that the single Greek state will have the dominat position..this politics works well in V and in first half of IV cenatury. This was however ruined when the two brillant successive figures have occured in near Greece area. Macedonian king Philip II have introduced the revolutionary changes to the art of warfare and due to its impementation have subordinated the whole Greece. Philip's son - Alexander have developed his fahter's ideas as well in wafare as in ambitions.

Thus the main reasons were:
  • the genius of greek/macedonians leaders
  • the  supriority of greek/macedonian warfare
  • decentalization of Persian Empire 
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  Quote Dari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 15:11
Cyrus the Great is more then Alexander's equal....at Persia's military height. Alexander's conquest of the Persian Empire does not prove that Greek/Macedonian military is superior to Persian military. As Cyrus the Great easily smashed the Ionian hopilites of various city-states and provinces.


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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 16:18
Cyrus the Great is more then Alexander's equal....at Persia's military height

I must say my opinion is different...
Alexander's conquest of the Persian Empire does not prove that Greek/Macedonian military is superior to Persian military.

Really ? So what is reason that the much less numerous forces have conquered such bifg empire ?
. As Cyrus the Great easily smashed the Ionian hopilites of various city-states and provinces.

1. We discuss here about two different periods.. and and you seem to do not regonise the develompent of greek warfare in the V and especially IV centaury BC..
2. So what is the reason of defeat of Achemaenid  Empire by Macedonians ?







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  Quote Dari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 16:37

Easily its internal corruption, decadence, in-fighting and the lack of unity to actually confront the Greeks and Macedonians when on Persian and Iranian soil.



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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 16:50
Easily its internal corruption, decadence, in-fighting and the lack of unity to actually confront the Greeks and Macedonians when on Persian and Iranian soil.

1. decandence in fighting have been showed much before - during invasion of Greece in V centaury..just even the best persian units lkie immortals could not stand against greek hoplite without good helmet, shield and sword...
2. Internal corruption was on the level which was always typicall for the Empire since the post Xerxes period..
3. lack of unity - I would say the  Empire in this age have showed really big unity and the loyality to the Dariush..after really great defeat at Issos the major of the provinces have still  issued armies to support the persian king..
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  Quote Tonifranz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2004 at 16:54

And besides, in 490-479 BC, the Persians were still at the height of their power, during the Persian invasion of Greece. And they still lost to a bunch of puny squabbling city states.

 



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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2004 at 06:33

The weakness of the Persian empire military system was evident ever since Xanophon and his 10000 hoplites, without any cavalry or archers, were able to first defeat a whole wind of the Persian army at the battle of Cunaxa with not even one fatality and then escape from the heart of the Persian empire defeating all armies that were send against them. read the whole Anabasis here: http://www.earth-history.com/Greece/greece-xenophon-anabasis -preface.htm

Learning from this Agesilaus of Sparta (http://www.e-classics.com/AGESILAUS.html) was able to attack Persia and conquer all of Asia Minor coast (and plunder it as well) before he was obliged to return to Greece to face fellow-Greeks in battle.

Later on when the Greeks were united under Philip and later his son Alexander, they were able to go in for the kill. Persia was ripe for the picking.

 

 

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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Aug-2004 at 20:52
I think Cyrus, Yjannis and TJK very much hit on all the reasons for Persian decline.  The house of Achaemenes was so torn by internecine conflict and court intrigues that it was unable to withstand the momentous assault by an ambitious young Macedonian king and his modest army of Greek hoplites, Macedonian infantry and Thessalian cavalry.  While Darius III did indeed rally his subjects for two successive battles against the Hellenes (as Greeks called themselves then), each defeat -- plus the loss of vital provinces like the Levant coast and Egypt -- was a blw that weakened his authority and left him vulnerable to the final treason of his generals.  Fleeing the oncoming charge by Alexander (we had a heavily-armed youth on horseback racing towards a lightly-armed king in a chariot) didn't help things any, but it gave the Persian empire a short respite as Alexander regrouped his forces and delayed plans to penetrate the heartland.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 03:53
Wait a second Dari is Absolutly right. TJK don't be an idiot. Firstly you say Persian were defeated in invasion of greece. First these junks are told by Greek historians they would never say they lost a single battle. Secondly modern research is proving that Alexander was killed by Ariobarzan and before conquering Persia a guy from Median decent got his merceneries and overthrew they persians usin persia's own army by promises. They say Alexander(the median guy, he was homosexual by the way although he had a wife for prospeity and no children)went through Lut desert in two days. A researcher from britain said he could not do it in two weeks with a car. Moreover they found that Persepolis was never burnt at all............... Persians defeated Greeks in their invasion and Burnt Acropolis instead in time of Xerxes.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 03:59
PERSIA NEVER LOST TO GREECE OR THE GAY ALEXANDER AND BEATED THE HELL OUT OF THEM. MOREOVER AFTER GREEK OR ARAB OR MONGOLIAN INVASIONS PERSIA RISED AGAIN WHILE GREECE WAS FADED IN HISTORY UNTIL THE LAST CENTURY BY ROMANS.
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 06:44

 

 

WOW!!!    That was impressing!

Talking about history revisionism...

Btw, do you have something against gay people?

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  Quote Rebelsoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 07:02

jamshidi_f

You are cracking me up, man! You are great! Keep them coming, yo!

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  Quote Cornellia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 09:00

Originally posted by jamshidi_f

PERSIA NEVER LOST TO GREECE OR THE GAY ALEXANDER AND BEATED THE HELL OUT OF THEM. MOREOVER AFTER GREEK OR ARAB OR MONGOLIAN INVASIONS PERSIA RISED AGAIN WHILE GREECE WAS FADED IN HISTORY UNTIL THE LAST CENTURY BY ROMANS.

I don't know where to begin.  This theory is definitely controversial and appears to fly in the face of historical and archaeological records. 

I guess I should start by asking you for your sources.  You mentioned in another thread that Persepolis wasn't burned and about a 'pseudo-Alexander'.   What are your sources for this?

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:26
Although these are modern reseaches, there is one book called "Eskandar-e-Dorooghin" which is mostly found in Middle East and is very new. It is written by Dr.AbdoAzim Rezai.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:27
Dr.Rezai mentions that he had some partners from Britain in examining samples from Persepolis.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:28
I have not completely read the book.However, I have seen it and read the first 6 chapters.
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  Quote TJK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 14:37
TJK don't be an idiot.


Great start-post jamshidi_f !
I think our Historical Amusement subforum will appreciate your posts..


BTW Are you Lor ?






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